i've put an awful lot of hours on my v1 and though i can't fault it, i think it's time i got a new camera (i shoot for a number of clients - ALL TAPE) just as i would my car after 150k km.

so, i asked sometime ago v1 vs z5, and it seemed the general opinion was the z5 was wider at wide angle, and 2 (?) stops better in low light (NOT a real worry for me as i light what needs to be lit!). i was wondering if anyone would like to elaborate...

has anyone here had any experience with the two cameras, and if so, i greatly appreciate your comments.....

leslie

I'd be also interested in peoples thoughts and as well as comparing the Z1/Z5/Z7 for features/costs/real life thoughts?

I've owned and used the "little brothers" of all these cams except for the Z7 (the FX equivalents) so I can pontificate at great length. What exactly do you guys want to know?

I originally started with the FX1 and was blown away at the time by its rich, stunning picture, even if it was a little soft. But the lens just wasn't long enough for the sports work we do so I picked up a couple of FX7s, and was impressed by the longer reach as well as what I thought was a superior data display scheme, better zoom functions (soft start and end, which I know some hate but I like) and sharper, punchier picture. It's not great in low light, but it is decent.

When the FX1000 came out, I picked up a couple of those and found that they had the same ease of use as the FX7, vastly superior low light to either the FX1 or FX7, and wider and longer zoom than the FX1 (but still not as long as FX7). Many more controls than either cam. Not crazy about the menu button/wheel on the side rather than the back, but not a big deal.

When I had to go back to the FX1s because my FX7s and FX1000s were out for rentals, all sentimentality vanished and all I could think was what a PITA they were to work with. They're all gone via eBay as of this week, with the funds earmarked for two Z5s. Eventually I will swap out the FX1000s for Z5s as well.

The long lenses on the FX7s are essential for me, so I don't think they are going anywhere soon, although I might consider swapping them out for V1s at some point -- if they're still available on the secondary market. Both the V1 and Z5 do progressive, which the Z1 doesn't, if that's important to you. I've never considered it but I suppose it should come in handy.

Hope this helps.

EDIT: Here's a link to a fairly useless comparison chart from the Sony site:

http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/productComparisonChart.do?URL=/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-hdv/&models=HVRV1U,HVRZ1U,HVRZ5U

...useless because they report the data differently for each cam so you can't really go across each feature and find where they differ. But here it is anyway.

I own a Z5 and love it. I find it a lot better than the Z1 for a few reasons.

Firstly, audio controls are a lot better on the Z5. They have moved the controls to the centre of the left side instead of the back and I have moved the XLR options from the menus to actual switches on the body.

Its better balanced than the z1

Two cold shoe mounts on the camera is handy

Good in low light

Offers easy upgrade for solid state in the future with CF card recorder.

Aperture ring is handy, along with a re assignable button next to the zoom rocker which is handy for quick auto exposure.

anyway theres a few reasons why I like the Z5 reason why I went for it over the z7 was because of the price and 20x lens.

I had a V1 and I now have a Z7. While the Z5 and Z7 do share some components/features, there are differences. One advantage shared by the Z5 and Z7 is that the CMOS chips are larger than the V1. While the DOF control on either one isn't nearly as good as my old 2/3" betacam, they are still superior to the 1/4" chips in the V1 family. If I work at it and have suitable conditions, I am able to throw the background out of focus with the Z7. Since I came from a Betacam background, I find the more "normal" controls on the Z7 to be far superior to the more "consumer type" controls on the V1. I always thought the V1 produced absolutely stunning images, but I hated the controls. Especially the lens controls. I just feel I have a lot more creative control and can get the look I want much quicker and easier with the Z7. I have used a FX1000 (Z5's little brother) and I much prefer the overall layout of the Z7. I know it might surprise some people, but I don't even miss the 20x lens of the Z5. If I had to do it all over again, I would still pick the Z7.

We have the V1, Z5, Z7, EX1.

V1 vs Z5, The best advantage of the Z5 would be the ability to dock the MRC1 although you'd have to buy that separately. Also, better in low light but not a mind shattering difference. I would not upgrade to the Z5 over the V1.

The Z7 however, comes with the MRC1 and best of all, the lens can be set so that the focus ring doesn't spin and spin and spin...you can also do crash zooms with it. It has a sharper image than the V1. The sony wide angle lens that you can buy for it is really wide. Cons, for really long zooms, it's focal length is way, way shorter than the V1. I like its ergonomics better than the Z5.

I really like the V1 form factor as its a really light and small camera that get great images. However, the Z7 is just a way better camera. I don't like the Z5 since it too similar to the V1. If you are going to upgrade, save up and get the Z7.

Also, if image quality/35mbit wasn't a factor, I'd choose the Z7 over an EX1.

This is interesting feedback, especially on the Z7. The feelings about its ergonomics are decidedly mixed, with some loving them and some hating them. It's good to hear from those who like the way the Z7 is put together.

After meticulously going through the manuals side by side, it appears that the Z5 and Z7 are virtually identical in functions, with the key differences being that the Z5 has the (much) longer and (slightly) wider lens (although not interchangeable), includes an internal mic which the Z7 lacks, but does not include the MRC as standard, which the Z7 does.

Aside from the differences in the tape compartment, the button and control placement seem very similar. It is interesting to hear the perception that the Z5 controls are too much like the V1, as they are in fact quite different and the Z5 and Z7 are nearly identical in layout (most notably the MENU button and recessed selection wheel on the side, rather than on the back as in the Z1 and V1). The Z5 with the MRC1 works out to about $350 cheaper than the Z7 with the MRC included.

In the days when integral lenses were vastly inferior to interchangeable lenses, it would have been a no-brainer to go for the Z7, but as the new "G" lens of the Z5 has received rave reviews, the T lens on the Z7 has a much shorter zoom range and you can't buy a Z7 without the lens, for me it seems the Z5 is the way to go. The real zoom ring and manual exposure control right by the zoom rocker would be nice, though.

I'm probably missing something here...

I dunno, I really dislike the Z5 as compared to the Z7. You are right, the integral lens of the Z5 vs the interchangeable lens of the Z7 in the real world is a non issue.

For me, it is not justifiable to go from the V1 to Z5. I'd skip the Z5 and go for the Z7. If i were to choose between the V1 and Z5 new, I'd go for the Z5 of course. The LCD on the V1 is absolutely horrible.

For me it is the proper lens functionality that seals the deal. You slide the focus ring to the manual setting and loose the spinning, spinning, spinning, spinning infinity focus and you can get rid of the deliberate in, in, in, in mechanical zoom. That is HUGE, for me anyways...

In the OP she states that she shoots on tape, BUT CF recording is such a time saver. Everyone should at least try out tapeless once, besides you can record on both tape/CF anyways. I did that for the first shoot with the Z7. After that I said 'bye bye' to tape.

Adam, as your earlier post says you do a lot of sports shooting, I would think the Z7 wouldn't have the reach you need. But grabbing the little knob to do a crash zoom would come in handy.

Oh and also, the Z5 buttons feel much more plastic-y as compared to both the V1 and Z7. Sony kinda cheap-ed out on that...

hi ed,

she is actually a he ;-)

i'm stuck with tape - i shoot for, among others, abc tv (the national broadcaster), and they want tape, as do nearly all my clients.

yes, tapeless is attractive, but not at the cost of my clients.....

i'm finding your responses very illuminating indeed. many thanks for your time and trouble. it's helping me slowly decide what to do.

leslie

whoops! sorry about that!

Ed, your points are all well-taken. One of the great things about this forum is that you get all sorts of feedback from those who have actually used the cams in question.

Obviously I've never even actually held the Z7, but from what I can deduce it's so similar to the Z5 that I can't figure out how one could like one and really dislike the other. Having used the FX7 in all sorts of conditions for quite some time -- and given that it has the same LCD as the V1 -- I'm also perplexed as to how one could find it "absolutely horrible"; it's quite bright and clear, and larger than that of the Z5/Z7, if not as sharp.

The lens ring functionality is indeed a major attraction of the Z7, especially the ability to crash zoom mechanically, but for me, you're right, the longer reach of the FX7/V1 is very useful and outweighs the other stuff. Even the Z5 isn't long enough, so that's sort of a moot point.

Obviously the tape vs. CF options on both the Z5 and Z7 are identical, so not an issue. Of course the V1 works the same way but lacks only the direct mounting/connection to the MRC of the newer cams.

So like most things, I guess there isn't really any clear answer. It appears that most of the stuff you like about the Z7 is also there on the Z5, with the (admittedly significant) exception of all the lens stuff, and the rather subjective "plasticky" feel of the buttons, about which I can't comment. It seems like most people agree that the LCD, chip, low-light performance, CF, controls and audio options are all better on the Z5/7 than the V1, with the only real advantage of the V1 being the much longer lens.

Here's a Z5 vs. Z7 comparison chart showing they are virtually identical except for the lens...

Sony | Product Comparison Chart (http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/productComparisonChart.do?URL=/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-hdv/&models=HVRZ5U,HVRZ7U)

...again, unless I'm missing something.

The design of the Z5 and Z7 are totally different, the Z5's design is closer to the Z1. The Z7 is something new, sort of like those studio "box" cameras with a lens attached to it. I wouldn't say one is better than the other for hand held work, i think you'd get accustomed to either rather quickly. So you are correct, no real world difference sans the lens functionality.

Really, the LCD on the V1 (don't know about FX7) is bad as compared to the Z5/Z7. It's the sharpness difference. I know I got used to the LCD on the V1 and could hold/get focus with it. But it is night and day compared to the Z5/Z7.

I still like the V1 if you need to go hiking to a location and such. It's pretty sturdy as well. I've dropped it off a tripod w/mattebox attached a couple of times, exposed it to salty air/spray at the beach, wrapped in a trash bag to shoot in constant drizzle...

It depends what you need. When I bought my Z5, the Z5 & Z7 were basically the same price with the MRC-1 added. I chose the Z5 because it fit my needs better. I love the lens, I love the built in mic for run & gun situations and some other minor features. As far as manual focus, it is actually a better feel to the focus than my PD-170 had. It doesn’t matter if it spins continuously, it takes less than a second to know which direction you need to go in.

Adam, while some of the buttons on the Z5 and Z7 are very similar, they are slightly different. Obviously the ND control is completely different but the buttons that are similar on the Z5 are more recessed into the housing than the Z7's buttons. While that doesn't seem to be very significant, when you are working by feel and don't have the time to really look at the buttons, The Z7 buttons are much easier to work with. Just a small difference when you are trying to get a shot that makes it a plus.

The 20x zoom is nice. No arguement there but the real world difference in the size of the image you see on the TV is much less than you would think. And the Z7 lens doesn't have as much iris ramping when the lens is zoomed in all the way.

All excellent points, Greg. Had no idea about "feel" of the buttons, which it's why it's great to hear from people who actually use the gear -- the specs and diagrams don't tell you everything.

The tele end of the Z5 works out to about 50% longer than the Z7 -- 590mm vs. 384mm (in 35mm equiv), which is significant for me when shooting kids at the plate from center field or way down at the opposite soccer goal. Even better is the V1/FX7's 748mm, which effectively doubles the size of the kids -- which means that rather than a boring shot of the kid head to toe at the plate with lots of headroom, I can now get a shot of the batter from waist up and see the expression on his face as he grimaces while swinging. For me, priceless.

But for the theatre shows we do, the whole zoom factor is irrelevant. We rarely approach either end of the zoom range (although more versatility is always better).

So it's all about the best tool for you. I don't know about the OP, but I'm learning a ton from all the other posters here.

op here,

and agree entirely with adam, i'm learning a lot!

unfortunately my choice is limited to cameras that handle tape (as explained earlier), and with (unfortunately) as long a tele as possible; not by choice.

i spend half the year shooting race horses, not on the track but at studs, where they 'parade' (think models on a catwalk), and then paddock shots where they can run free. it's this latter that requires the long lens since the paddocks can be quite large, and the natural instinct of the horse is to get as far away from the camera as possible ;-)

the rest of the time i spend shooting / producing a range of projects for commercial clients, but mainly artist 'profiles' for various galleries and the like. this of course requires more often than not using the other end of the lens! and though the v1 is great for the horses, i had to buy a wa (i settled on the sony kit .8) to handle studio shots and the like.

i don't usually have to worry too much about low-light situations, though that said, there have been a couple of gallery floor walks with curators where i've had to live with the ambient lighting - which as you can imagine can be pretty awkward with spots on painting and low level elsewhere. this usually means i have to shoot paintings 'separate' from the talent, which isn't that much of a pain, though on occasions i've had the talent standing next to a painting and pointing out details - of course it's a compromise between correct exposure for painting under spot, or talent in the ambient.....

it would seem from what i've read that, other than a couple of stops, i wouldn't be gaining that much moving to a z5? (anyone care to comment on wa, ie, z5 without wa adaptor vs v1 with .8?)

either way, i really appreciate all your input,

thanks

leslie

If you'd like i can do a sample on monday. I can screen grab, V1 and Z5 field of view + zoom.

ed, that would be absolutely wonderful!

do you have wa on either camera? ad if so, would it be too much to ask for grabs with and without?

i think it's probably going to be the deciding factor in my choice (the price difference isn't that great), ie, zoom / wa. the bigger chips might give me a couple of stops, but as i wrote, that's really not that important - nor the dof, since i rarely need to throw anything out of focus!

leslie

Adam has elaborated well the advantages of the Z5.

The chips in the V1 if the same as the V1/FX7, are not native 16:9, as I vaguely recall. The image from the cams has never looked right to me.

The bigger issue is you are wanting opinions on a 1/4" chip cam vs 1/3". There really is no comparison. The image in the Z5, etc. blows the 1/4" chips away in many circumstances. I have seen some footage shot with the FX7 that was very nice, but to achieve that quality of footage is much more difficult than if you begin with the larger chips.

This debate is similar to asking how the z5 compares to the EX1 as far as images go.

Wide angle adaptors are fine, but why lower the quality of your image further? Your already beginning with relatively borderline technology.

You can buy the Z5 from b and h and shoot with it and return it if necessary, but I highly doubt you would be unhappy. Instead you would wonder why you waited so long.

If you have the money for the new cam buy it. If you don't and/or what you are using is working, don't waste your money.

If quality is important, the Z5/Z7 is an obvious choice, IMO. When you see the downloaded images on your PC you will immediately see the difference and be very happy.

I do not have a WA for either the V1 or Z5, only for the Z7. I can and the Z7 with and with out the WA into the mix if you'd like.

The V1 image looks fine especially if you are delivering SD. Anthony Bourdain's No Reservation used the V1 for at least one season. Global Gastronome: Shooting HD for " No Reservations"Jon Silberg, Jon Silberg, Jon Silberg (http://www.dv.com/article/16070)
Yes, they now upgraded and Z7's now and yes it looks much, much better but the V1 looked fine. They also throw some Letus footage in there, I believe with a HVX.

Here is a project shot on the V1, the opening was shot from the local news helecopter's camera in DV but most of the shots were done with the V1, the rest being with a PD170 or A1.

Hawaii: Hawaiian Studies 107 on Vimeo

The chips in the V1 if the same as the V1/FX7, are not native 16:9, as I vaguely recall. No HDV cam is native 16:9, if by that you mean natively 1920 x 1080. (Well, maybe the Canons are: they list much higher pixel counts, although this might be meaningless marketing-speak.) All Sony HDV (tape) are 1440 wide with a PAR of 1.333.

The Z7, Z5 and V1 are all 1440 x 810, according to Sony, with an effective pixel count of 1,037,000 in 16:9 movie mode. If you want 1920 x 1080 you have to move up to the EX1. Or, ironically, down to their compact AVCHD Handycams.

I do not have a WA for either the V1 or Z5, only for the Z7. I can and the Z7 with and with out the WA into the mix if you'd like.

appreciate the thought, but the z7 is a non-starter - my old pd170 with a 12x zoom just didn't cut it, hence my early adoption of hd!

The V1 image looks fine especially if you are delivering SD.

the horses for sure end up in sd / web. the rest of my work (especially artists) gets delivered on sd dvd along with both a HD mp4 for web, and m2t for pc / whatever.

Here is a project shot on the V1, the opening was shot from the local news helecopter's camera in DV but most of the shots were done with the V1, the rest being with a PD170 or A1.

nice - and looks good too.

i'd be more than happy just to see wide / tele on v1 vs z5.

oh, and can i split the audio? ie. adjust ONE input to both channels so i have auto level on one and manual on the other. the v1 doesn't allow for that - bugger!

leslie

The audio options on the Z5 are virtually limitless. The only time both channels are locked together is when you use the internal mic only. Any use of either INPUT allows you to set levels independently and to map either INPUT to either channel (well, almost -- I haven't found a way to send INPUT2 to CH1).

It'd probably be worth it for you to download the manual and spend some time reading about the options. It was a real eye-opener for me.

V1 max wide. 20ft from subject 250w on subject, 500w filling the foreground. 0db gain 1.6.

14909

z5 max wide. 20ft from subject 250w on subject, 500w filling the foreground. 0db gain 1.6.

14910

That is dramatic...

V1 max zoom. 20ft from subject 250w on subject, 0db gain 2.8.

14912

Z5 max zoom. 20ft from subject 250w on subject, 0db gain 3.4.

14913

That's what I'm talking about...is the correct choice here (when cash is not an issue) a no brainer or what?

V1 max zoom. 20ft from subject 250w on subject, 0db gain 2.8.

14912

Z5 max zoom. 20ft from subject 250w on subject, 0db gain 3.4.

14913


ed, i can't thank you enough! and it just goes to prove jeff was right ;-)

many thanks again for your time and effort....

leslie

Thank God I bough the Z5!!!

Stelios

I have the Z5 and and FX7, Z5 blows the FX7 out of the water in every way imginable (except cost of course :) )

Z5! Z5! Z5!

I'll admit that the Z5 is superior to the V1 but just because those images show such a dramatic difference AT THE SAME SETTINGS isn't that a little unfair to the V1? After all, it's not that the V1 couldn't produce images exposed similarly to the Z5 images shown. It would only require a change in the exposure settings.

I understand that the point is to illustrate that the Z5 is better, but the response to the image comparison almost suggests the V1 simply can't do the job.

The V1 has 1/4" chips that cannot collect the information possible with the Z5. It is not physically possible. There is nothing to be done that can make an inferior piece of equipment do the same job as a better piece.

It is like saying a 5lb hammer will do the same thing as a 10lb hammer, you just have to hit it harder.

People often buy 1/4" chipped cameras thinking they are "as good" as the bigger cameras if you just "work it right". If that were true, there would be no need for broadcast cameras...you could just by a cheap consumer camera and change the settings...sorry, it doesn't work that way.

If the 1/4" chipped camera works for you that is great. If and when you need a more expensive camera you will know when that time is.

For the examples, if you have time to light, all I would have to do is up the lamp wattage. For weddings and some run and gun situations, well... The V1 is great outdoors, bad in low light.

For me:

V1 small & compact, infinite spinning focus ring, poor lcd, longest zoom, tape.
Z5 good low light, infinite spinning focus ring, have to buy MRC1.
Z7 good low light, proper lens, MRC1 included, much shorter zoom than V1/Z5.

Top features I look for in cameras:

Low Light
Tapeless
Proper Lens
Codec
Ergonomics

I think 1/4 vs 1/3 is moot, they are both not ideal. I would like to see V1 footage recorded on the Nano Flash, just for sh*ts and giggles.

So a camera 2 or 3 years newer than the V1 and costing £1000 more (£2000 if you add solid state recording) gives a better picture!

Bears go in the woods!
Pope still a Catholic!

Thinking back, affordable tapeless recording was a pipe dream when the V1 came out. The world has moved on, certainly. Read Nigel Cooper's dvuser.co.uk review of the V1 from 2006, and then wonder if he'd give it such a glowing review today.

Speaking as a happy (non-commercial) V1 user, I or anyone else would probably be bonkers to buy one today. If I was doing this professionally, I'd drop the V1 like a hot potato and upgrade today, to either the Z5 or EX-1.

back again.....

quick question. will my sony kit wide angle (.8) HG0862K work on the z5?

tia

leslie

Look up the specs for your old camera, look at the lens size, and then get the lens size of the Z5 lens and you'll know.

Leslie - 0862 means it's a 0.8x with a 62 mm thread, geddit? So no, it won't sit happily on the Z5's 72 mm filter thread.

Perhaps we should skip talking Z5 and move to the new Z5-R
http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowC...veContext=true

AVCHD and SD in MPEG2. No tape deck.

This link doesn't work

Try this one for starters - other info /links currently in the DV Industry News section

Sony : Sony?s NXCAM: First look : United Kingdom (http://www.sony.co.uk/biz/view/ShowContent.action?site=biz_en_GB&contentId=1237476948120&parentFlexibleHub=1166605171707)

From what I've read it looks nice.

NXCAM is going to become a different subject of conversations. But what about Z5-R, what is it?

Regarding the WA lens, the Sonys are also bayonet mount, further reducing the likelihood of ever making it fit successfully.

For a cheaper alternative, why not try a Red Eye? The barrel distortion is no worse than a Sony, it comes at 0.7x, it slips under the Sony lens hood without vignetting, and it's half the price. (Based on my V1 experience, not the Z5, I should point out).

For something I don't use a lot, except in tight spots, £200 (and fitting in a pocket) is a lot better than £400 (and needing its own truck to carry it).

Leslie - 0862 means it's a 0.8x with a 62 mm thread, geddit? So no, it won't sit happily on the Z5's 72 mm filter thread.

hi tom,

actually the sony kit wa i have is a bayonet fitting, the same as that for the z5.

my question is if i use my .8 will it be zoom through as it is on the v1?

thanks

Alex - I only Christened the NXCAM the Z5-R because Sony's upgrade of the EX1 is called the EX1-R and because this NXCAM is effectively the Z5's replacement.

I'm with Mike - Sony's bayonet-on, mild (0.8x) wide-angle zoom-throughs are huge when they have their hoods fitted, and a single element adapter like the Red-Eye is the way I go, meaning I can easily carry it on my person.

Yes Leslie - if it's zoom-thru on a V1 then it'll be zoom-thru on anything else it fronts.

tom.

thanks tom.

seems like the person buying my v1 wouldn't say no to the wa as well.

are the red-eye zoom through, or rather than look that up myself (i'm not that lazy), have you personal experience of them?

i ask cause i've used a few sony handycams with other manufacturers wa's and a couple of them were meant to be zoom through, but in practice weren't. sorry, i don't remember the brands...

leslie

I have indeed had experience of the Red-Eye wide-angle adapters and tested the 58 mm 0.7x and 0.5x for a magazine. That was back in the VX2000 days though, so they may well have improved.

Both are injection moulded plastic single elements, beautifully multi-coated and weighing very little. They claimed to be aspherical elements and indeed appeared to be, but even so, they gave far too much barrel distortion for my liking. They have an excellent protective soft case.

On the VX2k I could partially zoom-through - instead of a 12x zoom I had a 7x zoom. Still very useful.

Raynox do some 'clip-on' single elements in the Red-Eye mould (HA!), and these are very much cheaper and work well. Barrel distort though.

tom.

thanks again tom....

i think i'm going to hang on to my kit wa till i get the z5. that way i'll have a clear, practical overview (thruview?) of the matter.

checked raynox site, and looked at the video's, but there really not much help since they don't show the scene WITHOUT wa. i mean i just don't understand that at all.....

i thought i'd sacrifice something, and too much barrel distortion is certainly a non-starter for my mainline projects, artists works of art.

i suppose the old adage suits - suck it and see.

thanks for your great help / advice