Anyone using the nanoflash with converted component input from their camera? I may have an opportunity to add a tapeless recorder to my rig.
- would this be worth it in terms of picture quality or am I condemned to HDV? (from the XHA1, with component out available). I would think that barring noise, it would be a step up from the HDV on tape (even if the signal went analog to digital to analog in the camera first)
- if it were worth it, I would look to convert the analog to SDI with embedded audio ... but would need a separate box (another $1k), and then I start to think well if I am going to record the audio in the SDI, then I should have the audio signal go straight to the converter box rather than out of my camera from the headphone out (or should I do that to better sync the audio to video, but I would think the audio out of the headphone jack would be lower quality b/c of the unbalanced output). I could run the mikes through a pre-amp but that's another box (not sure how else to verify levels and audio quality).
- And, if I use an analog to SDI box, it's another box with more wire, not to mention where to mount the second box (handheld).

Anyone doing this? if so, I'd be interested to know how you are approaching this (or even thoughts on the above if you are not doing this).

thanks in advance!

What a coincidence Dave. I'm doing this very same thing right now. I have basically two cameras that I like to use. One has an SDI output and the other (an HDV cam) only has component output.

The component output is very good quality and bypasses the crappy HDV compression, but I couldn't use it with my XDR recorder.

So I got a component -> SDI converter box. I've been doing some unofficial tests with it and it looks very nice. However, the converter box power supply I have only works on wall power. I need to make a power cable to power it from my battery pack, then the real testing will begin (when I can leave my house with it).

The converter box I'm using is by AJA. So far I'm pretty happy with it.

Aaron - very interesting! Are you using the AJA HD10A? I'd be interested to know how it works out. If you are using that box, I see that it doesn't have audio, so I assume you're capturing the audio in another way rather than embed it in the SDI signal? I wish I had something to contribute back, but please keep us posted if you could.

Hi Aaron & Dave,
I have installed the NanoFlash on my SD broadcast camera which has a DVcam back. I use the Y/C output into a Blackmagic Mini HD/SD component Analog to SDI Converter. The converter is about the same size as the NanoFlash and I have mounted them on back of the camera, Back to Back so the NanoFlash's screen is always in view of the operator. I have been using this for the last two weeks for long form work. The picture quality is excellent and rock solid. On my last job I had everything running on mains power and noticed a bit of interference in the highlites. I need to do some more testing to see which mains power supply is causing the problem. I edited directly from the Cf cards and and produced my DVD with no ingest, what a time saver. The only downside in doing that is if anything happens to the vision on the cards I will have to re ingest from the DVcam tape which is my backup.

Lance, I looked at the blackmagic too .. much cheaper than the AJA, but I didn't compare the two sets of specs. Are you doing anything with Audio to the nanoflash, or are you handling that separately?

Edit: I see that the nanoflash shows on the convergent-design website as having a new balanced mono / unbalanced stereo input so I'm trying to look at that as well in cases where I would not be using a separate audio recorder (having a little trouble with the PDFs on the website, not sure if it's the site or my laptop).

Dear Dave,

The nanoFlash can currently record two channels of audio embedded in the HD-SDI input or the HDMI input.

Or up to two channels of analog audio can be recorded, 24-Bit / 48K.

One channel of balanced mic/consumer line level (-10 dB) or

Two channels of unbalanced mic/consumer line level.

No power is provide to the mic's.

If a mixer is used, then generally the mixer's tape output can be feed directly into the nanoFlash via a very low cost 3.5mm mini-plug cable.

Aaron - very interesting! Are you using the AJA HD10A? I'd be interested to know how it works out. If you are using that box, I see that it doesn't have audio, so I assume you're capturing the audio in another way rather than embed it in the SDI signal? I wish I had something to contribute back, but please keep us posted if you could.

Hi Dave. I'm using the HD-10AVA. This one is a little different since it takes 4 channels of audio on XLR connectors and embeds them into the HD-SDI stream. As Dan states though, I think you can only record 2 channels of audio embedded in the HD-SDI stream.

I have not testing the audio capabilities, as it's much easier for me to just plug the audio directly into the XDR. I don't need it embedded in my SDI stream.

Hello Dave,
In my situation with live events I take a mixed down signal from the mixing desk to camera and the output is then sent to the mini converter and embedded into the SDI signal for the Nanoflash to record.

The system works very well, the only thing to be careful about with the mini converter is that it only likes a 12 volt supply. If you are thinking about using battery power you will need a DC to DC converter. The NanoFlash on the other hand is very forgiving and operates from a much broader voltage range.

thanks .. I called black magic design yesterday to check that, and they told me the analog to SDI converter can operate at 11-15VDC and also gave me the plug size .. (are you using AJA or black magic design?).

so I was looking to use a switronix NP-L60 battery which has it's own ptap and then use the NP handle clamp which also gives a ptap, such that I would have one avail for the nanoflash and the other for the analog to SDI converter (assuming the handle clamp does not obscure the ptap in the batter, which the switronix guy told me it doesn't but I'd like to confirm).

anyone with any thoughts on this, I'm all ears ...

Hi Dave, I am using the Black Magic Mini Converter the AJA has a wider input voltage range making it much more suitable for on camera use.

Dear Dave,

The nanoFlash can currently record two channels of audio embedded in the HD-SDI input or the HDMI input.

Or up to two channels of analog audio can be recorded, 24-Bit / 48K.

One channel of balanced mic/consumer line level (-10 dB) or

Two channels of unbalanced mic/consumer line level.

No power is provide to the mic's.

If a mixer is used, then generally the mixer's tape output can be feed directly into the nanoFlash via a very low cost 3.5mm mini-plug cable.

Hi Dan,

I believe I read somewhere that the roadmap is to increase the number of audio channels in the HDSDI stream. What would be equally nice would be if the analogue input on the nF could be captured in parallel with the HDSDI stream. This would allow 2 channel cameras like the EX1 to produce 4 channel files. For me who likes to shoot with a short stereo shotgun AT835ST and a Micron RF this would be ideal. Is this possible? In the works? Have a timetable? Enquiring minds, who have a shoot coming up in February, want to know :)

David
AllinOneFilms.com

Dear David,

We are actively working to support more audio channels. This is a high-priority project for us.

We also want to do what you asked, two channels of embedded audio, two channels of analog audio.

First we have to support more audio channels, then I expect we will tackle the second part.

We may be able to release both parts simultaneously, but it is too early to tell.

Supporting more audio channels is a major project. While it may not seem so, it is. We are doing the research now.

Thanks, Dan. Please let us know as the road map for the audio support develops.

David
AllinOneFilms.com

I did a little research on the power requirements for three analog to SDI miniconverters, so I thought I would post the info here for reference (e.g. analog to SDI into a nanoflash). This info was provided by blackmagic design and AJA (and I have not tested this, it is only as provided by the manufacturers).

blackmagic design analog to SDI miniconverter:
input 11vdc - 15vdc
2.1mm x 5.5mm center positive plug
Kycon KLD-0202-A power connector on the converter

AJA:
HD10A - 5 volts regulated
HD10A-12V - 12 volts regulated
HD10AVA - 5 - 18 volts dc

AJA part number D5-10 mini connector to supply power to the connector on the mini converter

Hello Dave,
My 5 year old IDX Vlock batteries fully charged produce 16.8 volts the blackmagic design analog to SDI mini converter: that has an input 11vdc - 15vdc. This would cause the converter to shut down from over voltage or damage it.

That's why I suggested a 12 volt voltage regulator to protect the unit and save you you from hardware failure.

Lance - thanks. this is why I am giving some thought to whether this approach is practical for a battery powered application, at least for right now, for me. it's interesting that the power requirements of the converters cause more difficulty than the signal conversion itself (which I would not have expected), at least on paper.

The AJA HD10AVA has the most flexibility in terms of power requirements (5-18volts) however that unit also has a gigantic breakout cable to be dealt with, not to mention the large proprietary cable that the canon XHA1 uses to plug into the camera to provide component output. (at the time I could not justify the canon with the SDI outputs, and it was the canon I was after). This would be more manageable for events where I am recording from a tripod with a cart for audio, however for those same events I would also have AC mains power available so that point would be moot. (the hd10ava also has audio embedding which would be great, but it would be the icing with a difficult to power cake).

Also, the HD10AVA happens to be twice the cost of the blackmagic design unit, further complicating the picture (in addition to the ppower cabling and ptap distribution I would have to have).

So, while technically feasible, the work and cost are higher than other approaches.

I really like the nanoflash concept from all of the postings here, however it takes some more thought (and cost) for cameras without SDI. And, this is no fault of C-D in my opinion, it's a different market (which is also why I was asking them about the 19meg and 50 meg file sample files, whereas the current focus on the firmware and I'm sure the folks at C-D is on 280megs and pushing that side of the envelope, so less focus on having time (I assume) to post the lower bitrate samples, etc.).

I really like the flexibility of the unit in terms of bitrates, it's size of course, the frequency and focus of CD on continual firmware upgrades and product enhancements, their presence here on the board, and also that it's using an mpeg codec (vs. prores) as I am a vegas user on a PC (who would have thought about wanting to edit mpeg based material a few years ago .. not me anyway, but times change).

so, further thought and consideration on my part... other opinions / thoughts welcome!

Dear Dave,

Our next release also adds an 18 Mbps 4:2:0 mode, which is designed for Proxy recording.

Yes, we have been slow to post lower bit-rate samples. We should do that.

We are working on a complete revamp of our website. It is long overdue.

Dan, no worries, I don't get to decide your priorities :-)
my interests are in the 18/19, 25 and 50 megbit range and I'm sure I would throw in a project or two at the 100 megbits but for me, for now, don't need 140/160, 220, etc. so, a slightly different use of your product I suspect.

that said, my bigger issues are power mgt for an analog to mini SDI converter in this application (rather than the bitrates, which I'm sure the encoder is doing nicely, did you say you use a sony encoder? my dvd recorder with a sony encoder does great at low bitrates so your chip should too), and to be honest, I don't know how many users you would have like that. my guess would be that most who are paying for your product, for the expensive CF cards, etc etc are also more likely to be using cameras with SDI.

so it may be more of a niche, not sure ...

thanks for all your support on this forum...

Dear Dave,

I believe that the Sony MPEG-2 does a great job at the low bit-rates. But, of course, the image quality can never be as good as the higher bit-rates (obvious!).

Our 35 Mbps and below are 4:2:0.

To me, the biggest concerns are:

1. How much of a quality loss you will experience since the digital signal has to be converted to analog in the camera for the component output, then converted back to digital to create HD-SDI. We know that there is a quality loss, we just do not know how much. A good quality Component to HD-SDI converter should be used for best quality.

2. While I have never had a problem with the component output cable that Canon supplies with the XL H1, and never a glitch, I worry about that cable if there is going to be much camera movement. This could turn out to be a non-issue, and you could easily test this with any component monitor or TV.


Overall, I would check into selling your existing camera, then purchasing one with HD-SDI. There are some great bargains out there at this time for good to great cameras with HD-SDI output. HD-SDI is great, since it is so clean, and the cables are secure and low cost.

I am assuming that you have the excellent XH A1, a great camera that has a high resale value. You could upgrade to an XL H1 if you could find a bargain. Of course, you may like the smaller size of the XH A1.

Dan, thanks. believe it or not I actually did give that some thought as well. Probably won't do it now, but I did give it some consideration already. I agree w/ you.