I do weddings. I have a potential client who wants some of my past clients' phone numbers to ask them about their satisfaction.

To me, this is a boundaries issue. I don't feel right releasing my valued client's contact information to someone who may or may not hire me. To me that's selling them out.

Yet the potential client is a big CEO, and perhaps this is common practice. I told her I'd think on it. Thoughts?

I've been in that position and here's what I say and do.

"I can't release the numbers of my clients to you BUT I WILL call them and ask their permission to do that. However should they ask me not to I will ask them to call YOU. Is that fair?"

If they insist and I've had a few, I further explain that I wouldn't release THEIR number either as I feel that that would be an intrusion into their lives that the former client might not wish to indulge in. 99% of people understand that and the other 1% hire someone else.

BTW, even my corporate clients sign off in my service agreement that I can give out their name and number to potential clients.

I think it's only natural, in a way. They most probably saw that "manifestly inadequate" wedding video from the UK on the news and quite rightly want to double-check that you are legit / able to deliver.

Also, CEO types are used to having to perform "due diligence" as a normal part of their business lives .... so it's ingrained in their thinking. They'll also understand the privacy issue and will note your professionalism in the handling of client information (and hence their own).

Do the ring-ahead for permission (per above posts) and I'm sure they will be okay in the end.

Andrew

That's what is known as asking for references <grin>, something a wise consumer is always advised to do when purchasing any service, so there's nothing in the request that's untoward. There's some obvious privacy issues involved so one should obtain permission from the prior clients before passing their contact information along but other than that, I don't see it as anything unusual or giving rise to concerns. Your prior clients ARE happy with your work, right?

Yes, they're happy.

I'm starting to feel like I'm brokering the sale of a home though. I understand due diligence, but I've this potential client has cost me several hours of work and just emailed me (#13) that she wants a second *set* of demo DVDs to review. I've already given her over 30 paragraphs of references, customized and re-customized packages for her, drawn up a custom contract, uploaded specific archived content online for her, talked on the phone at length. So now that she wants to call my happy clients I'm thinking sheesh, do I cut bait? What if she calls them over and over? I'm feeling demoralized by all this. I want to say, "If you trust me, lets move forward. If not, let me refer you."

I think they have got more than enough to establish whether you are any good or not. You've put in enough time on this already, based on your last post. Any more and you're really going to be losing money before you even start the job.

Furthermore, what if this sort of time-soaking behaviour continues throughout the project and the sign-off for the deliverables? I'm beginning to wonder if this potential client is worth the effort.

Definitely don't send an extra set of demo DVDs. You're not here for entertainment. They can figure it out based on what they have already.

Andrew

PS. For purely bonus points, ask them for referrals for people they have done business with in the past to establish whether they (the potential client) have been good to work with (or a PITA), pay their bills on time, etc ... You should call some of their other contractors for referencing purposes?

at this point you have to ask yourself, is the job worth it? I understand a client wanting to get references and seeing other work but from the desrpition of what you've done til now, I would ask her simply "now that I've done everything you've asked for are we going to go ahead or not?"
Simple direct and to the point. IMO you've done more than I would have and as stated above it's starting to cost you money.
As they say 'Fish or cut bait'.

Yes, they're happy.

I'm starting to feel like I'm brokering the sale of a home though. I understand due diligence, but I've this potential client has cost me several hours of work and just emailed me (#13) that she wants a second *set* of demo DVDs to review. I've already given her over 30 paragraphs of references, customized and re-customized packages for her, drawn up a custom contract, uploaded specific archived content online for her, talked on the phone at length. So now that she wants to call my happy clients I'm thinking sheesh, do I cut bait? What if she calls them over and over? I'm feeling demoralized by all this. I want to say, "If you trust me, lets move forward. If not, let me refer you."

It sure sounds like you've done enough - about the only quibble I might have with what you've said is where you say you've provided "30 paragraphs of references." Testimonials that you provide are not really references unless they include identification and contact information so your prospective client can talk directly to them and hear straight from the horse's mouth what their experience was with you.

My 2 cents: If you haven't explicitly gotten previous clients' permission to hand out their contact info, don't do it. You CAN but SHOULD you? If I was one of those clients, I wouldn't appreciate being set up for "cold calls" from people I don't know without some prior agreement to that effect.

You can offer to provide this potential client's phone number to a list of previous clients and some of them may bother to make the call. If the potential client won't share her own number, "cut bait."

They include the full name, but not contact info.

Thanks guys. I appreciate your wisdom and support.

I have a 'Privacy Policy' that everyone signs along with a contract which simply states that I don't pass their details onto third parties or anyone for that matter. Only if requested by the law (court order required). However I ask for references or testimonials at the end of each job which they agree to have their contact details added. If I post on my website it’ll only mention their name, company name and a link to their website if they have one. For those on paper it’ll include postal address, phone and fax numbers as well as an email address. Some agree, some don’t (as long as I get a few each year that’s all the is needed).

My policy, I don't give out my client contact info to anyone.

In my case, the clients are usually corporate and I can direct them to their webpages especially if such pages show my work. That's exceptional though since much of my work is not featured on the web.

A client seem my demo reel and they meet with me personal and can judge my skills and my integrity. If they don't trust me there's not point in going further. If they ask for references then you'd certainly have a right to do credit inquiry as well as ask them for references to see if they pay their bills and whether they're "grinders."

There are unscrupulous posers who pretend to be clients inquiring about a job and are really fishing for lists.

In some cases I've been called by clients who want to use me as a reference. In THOSE cases I ask if they're willing to reciprocate so I do make exceptions.

Any potential client who asks for references will get an explanation that client contact information is something that I guard and I would do the same for them.

Some wedding sites do advice Brides to ask suppliers references. I would ask my client's permission of course and not just hand them the contact info outright. You can't blame Brides for being extra careful because of that UK fiasco.Just recently I have a limo driver bailing out of a couple ( couple was not able to do a park shoot and hitched a ride to the reception) apparently they got the limo guy from Craigslist.

Weddings might be a different ballgame given the client is already married, they're not likely to jump vendors. The problem can continue with references since one can certainly give out the phone number of friends who were never clients, who can articulate "satisfaction" in great detail.

A face to face meeting with client would be a good start and certainly meeting at the place where the editing would occur as well as giving the potential client the details on production/post production techniques uses (How do you handle low light shooting, multicamera shoots, setup time, etc.) can go a long way in giving the potential client a sense of security which is ultimately what they're looking for.

I understand due diligence, but I've this potential client has cost me several hours of work and just emailed me (#13) that she wants a second *set* of demo DVDs to review. I've already given her over 30 paragraphs of references, customized and re-customized packages for her, drawn up a custom contract, uploaded specific archived content online for her, talked on the phone at length. So now that she wants to call my happy clients I'm thinking sheesh, do I cut bait?

Oh, my God. This sounds like the client from hell. Imagine how much fun she's going to be if she books you? I personally would be happy to pass on someone like that...

I just got off the phone with her. She is going with someone else.

Good riddance, I say. And lucky you...

Thank you. That's therapeutic to hear. This was one bad experience.

And a big thanks for letting us know how it all turned out. Could have easily been one to qualify for worst project ever (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/open-dv-discussion/141342-worst-project-ever.html) status.

Andrew

With all the red flags you posted about earlier you could sort of see this coming. In our area, many of the people work for, um, a large software company, and from Upper Management on down they all seem to apply the dictatorial, demanding, manage-through-intimidation style to all aspects of their lives. It appears you had something similar here and really, count your blessings that they didn't decide to put you through another year of hell.

Just imagine, if they were that problematic during the courtship (your bidding process), what would the marriage (you working for them) be like?

Maybe you could shoot the divorce? (grin)

Yes, they're happy.

I'm starting to feel like I'm brokering the sale of a home though. I understand due diligence, but I've this potential client has cost me several hours of work and just emailed me (#13) that she wants a second *set* of demo DVDs to review. I've already given her over 30 paragraphs of references, customized and re-customized packages for her, drawn up a custom contract, uploaded specific archived content online for her, talked on the phone at length. So now that she wants to call my happy clients I'm thinking sheesh, do I cut bait? What if she calls them over and over? I'm feeling demoralized by all this. I want to say, "If you trust me, lets move forward. If not, let me refer you."

It's a blessing in disguise Dana, it would be a headache had she gone with you. I have a potential client years ago who wanted me to shoot their engagement party, edit it and show her my work before she decides if she wants to book me for their wedding. I basically charged her an arm and a leg for that engagement shoot, she never called me back.

Maybe it's because I've been doing this for nearly 30 years, Maybe it's because nearly every facility I worked for went out of business, usually due to clients (late payers, etc), but I'm very much into "not hiring the client."

If someone is pain I have no problems showing them the door.

If a client is unwilling to close the deal or at least make a reasonable counter offer, I walk away. Time is money.

If a demo real and a meeting isn't enough then I'm done.

Imagine giving a phone number of a past client to someone like that and they start pestering that person! That past happy client can get you more jobs by word of mouth than handing out their phone number to someone who may well become a nuisance. That past and formerly happy client may come to despise you.

Sorry, no one gets the phone numbers of my clients. My work speaks loudly enough. If you don't trust me there's no working relationship to be had.

Good stuff guys. Thanks.

I hate to be a contrarian and I know my views on customer service are VERY old-fashioned (ie, no matter what you think your product is, the only real product you sell is customer satisfaction - your nominal product is just a means to that end but satidfaction is the only thing you get paid for) but the bottom line is still that you are not doing the customer a favour by accepting their business, they are doing you the favour in considering you for hire.

Imagine you are hiring a sales manager for your video business and ask for references from your candidates. Are you going to look favourably on the guy that give you a page of testimonials he's quoted and attributed to "Happy Office Manager" and "Satisfied Former Employer?" Or would you feel a list of his last 5 employers with names of his supervisors and their telephone numbers to be more reliable?

We're talking a major expenditure here on the part of the prospective client and while you shouldn't violate previous client's privacy by giving out contact information without permission, there's nothing wrong with a potential client legitimately expecting to be given on request a list of 5 to 10 previous clients as references that they can call and verify what their experiences were with you straight from the horse's mouth as it were. That's not to say you have to put up with abuse from a client, but I know that if I'm about to contract with someone for several thousands of dollars worth of services, I'm going to want to talk for myself to some previous customers of the guy and learn first-hand what their experiences were.

Fair Enough. I think we all can expect today's customer to be more demanding. The toughest call is where to draw the boundary. You can be right at the point of sealing the deal, but nobody is going to tell you if you're an inch away from it or from abuse.

We got another nice potential client right after, so I'm thinking it's God's way of saying it was a good call. So many factors, but it all builds intuition.

...That's the cool thing in being an entrepreneur; when you fail, you gain valuable insight. In the corporate world when you fail, you're fired.

...you are not doing the customer a favour by accepting their business, they are doing you the favour in considering you for hire.
Steve, you are, as usual, absolutely right. I can't speak for anyone else but I never thought that the request for references was out of line, but all the hoops this potential client was making the vendor jump through were. No one is obligated to work for a toxic client who won't allow you to do the work you'll be proud of. The red flags popping up all over the place virtually guaranteed a miserable experience where no one comes out happy....In the corporate world when you fail, you're fired.Or you get promoted.

I never thought that the request for references was out of line, but all the hoops this potential client was making the vendor jump through were. No one is obligated to work for a toxic client who won't allow you to do the work you'll be proud of. The red flags popping up all over the place virtually guaranteed a miserable experience where no one comes out happy. I agree 100% with that. Good customer services doesn't mean giving away the store or taking abuse.

Dana - or you get a huge bonus after sinking your company... and the world economy...

In the case of unique, artistic services, you MAY be doing the client a favor by agreeing to work with/for them. References are fine and dandy, but if client and vendor don't share the same artistic vision, there's no advantage there.

When hiring someone for a creative project, I'm looking for results which may not be measurable in accounting terms... I certainly expect results, but I also respect that creativity isn't always measured in the same way that you would some other relationships.

The client/vendor relationship, as with any other, is a two way street. A client can be a PITA, and not worth the trouble TOO...

Ha! I often get in trouble by bringing up politics...This time it's not my fault! ;o) I steered clear.

>In the case of unique, artistic services, you MAY be doing the client a favor by agreeing to work with/for them.

Of course I'm doing them a favor. I've never done a job where the client hasn't received more than what they paid for. I'm offering them talent on loan from God, even with half my brain tied behind my back...just to make it fair for my competition.

Srictly a business observation <wink>! No need to state the obvious guv-mental implications, private industry does quite well sometimes when left to itself!