If it means a bigger camera then I suppose there isn't much point. Isn't there any spare room inside the EXes?

AFAIK, it's not as simple as having room for the sensor, which there most certainly is and more besides, it's that a bigger sensor requires much bigger fans for cooling, and that's what dictates the bigger body, certainly this is true for CCDs, maybe less so for CMOS?
Steve

I was soundly beaten when I suggested....... that Sony's "big announcement" might be that 2/3" PDW-700 chips were going into an EX sized cam. That was of course not the case,..........
And bigger chips tends to mean bigger lens....... So the EX1/3 becpme even less ergonomic.... So why not make this new camera shouldermount? ........ Ah, like the PMW350....

Joking apart, I wouldn't be surprised if the next announcement isn't the opposite to what you suggested, Jonathan. By which I mean something like the PMW350 body, but with 1/2" chips, and priced somewhere between the 350 and the EX1.

That would make marketing sense as a replacement for both the existing XDCAM 1/2" disc range AND the EX3 IMO. It would also help explain why we're being told the EX3 won't be upgraded along the lines of the EX1R - it will be discontinued if my theorys right! As things stand, the EX3 sits uneasily alongside the EX1R - more expensive, better in some respects, but not as good in others, now the EX1 has had all the improvements.

Dave, we are going to need to start a friendly betting circle ;)

By which I mean something like the PMW350 body, but with 1/2" chips, and priced somewhere between the 350 and the EX1.

My money is on this never happening. Too small a gap.

Incidentally, I'm missing beer. It's time you passed through this way again :)

I've always wanted to get an EX camera but there were barriers that prevented me, most of which have been solved by the R but some still remain. While I understand a manufacture can't make everyone happy there are fundamental areas shared by large user segments that were ignored that just make me scratch my head. To name a few:

SD: Most everyone would agree HD is clearly better but the majority of us still need to work in SD. While I'm thrilled Sony EX1-R addressed this I can't fathom how Sony could have left SD off more than a year ago when the EX was released. With the slow adoption rate of Blu-ray and HD broadcast tv, I got to believe the majority of ppl still need to shoot in SD. So who did Sony build this camera for? Independent film makers and who else?

SXS and memory stick: The price of SXS is so cost prohibitive I couldn't afford record my average 3-7 hrs. I can't imagine anyone in the market for 6k camera who be able to afford to spend the price of the camera in memory cards. It was fortunate that someone came up with the SD work around but no thanks to Sony, if they had their way ppl would be mortgaging their homes to pay for sxs cards. Here again I understand the more expensive technology of the sxs was needed for higher bitrate/overcrank, it was just short sited to not to have one sxs slot and one sd slot or some other affordable storage solution. This gets back to Sony's schizophrenic marketing of an entry level camera that only runs on high end media.

Remote: Lack of a full featured remote control is still the biggest issue that prevents me from buying. Even though there has be progress of recent by 3rd parties which again Sony can't take credit for. How does Sony expect people to film performances without the ability to control the exposure, zoom, and focus remotely? Who wants to stand for 2-3 hrs and not be able to raise the camera high enough to avoid ppl getting up and blocking your shot during a performance? Never mind operating it on a boom.

Bad form factor: We get 1/2 sensors make a camera heavy, but why on earth would Sony try to force a heavy unbalanced camera to be something it is not, a camera that needs to supported in front of your body? The weight class dictates that it should be shoulder mounted and Sony should know better. Its rigid thinking that only ENG cameras can be shoulder mounted. I suppose Sony's twisted logic was they didn't want the EX to be shoulder mounted because it would compete with their higher end shoulder cameras. Better to frustrate you and give you a reason to upgrade.

I applaud Sony for being the first to market to deliver an affordable entry level 3 - 1/2" sensor camera. I just wish they were more in tune with the needs of users in that price range, and I'm specifically talking about event videographers. Now that they've upgraded the EX1 and raised the price to almost the EX3 without upgrading the EX3 it leaves consumers with an odd choice. Either Sony is going to have to upgrade or discontinue the EX3.

My money is on this never happening. Too small a gap.

Panasonic has an appealing 1/3" ENG style camera out, as we know, that is right in the price range of the EX series.

I think Sony will be watching sell through on the Panny shoulder cam very carefully and you may see a product change later next year to counter it. I understand with the PMW-350 about to be released that a 1/2" chipped version of that could be a bad move but if Panasonic's camera is clobbering Sony and the rest, the product releases will change.

Pete, you could be waiting a long time if you wait for the perfect camera. I agree with most of what you say but if you want to shoot with current technology you have to weigh the pros and cons and then choose your weapon of choice. If you are happy with your present camera then...

The Sony PMW-350 is aimed squarely at the professional market as a replacement for cameras like the DSR-570 or DSR-450. Users of these cameras may already have 2/3" lenses that they want to use and are used to being able to use any aperture without the pictures becoming so soft that they can't be used. Any camera with sub 1/2" sensors just isn't going to give the kind of performance that professional users need. Even a 1/2" camera limits you to a minimum of f8.

As for media, well if you work smart you can work with just a couple of SxS cards, using a backup device such as the NextoDi or soon to come Sony PXU-MS240. In the past 2 years using SxS media has saved me money. Sure the initial outlay is higher but over 2 years with 2 EX's I have seen some significant savings. Not only in media costs but also time. My file based workflow is so much faster, allowing me to do more. I can easily provided copies of footage to clients or producers for logging or archive. You really have to look at the bigger picture.

I applaud Sony for being the first to market to deliver an affordable entry level 3 - 1/2" sensor camera.

That's the bit you need to concentrate on Pete. When you look at the big images produced by the EX series then look at the tiny camera that produced them it brings home to me this wonderful age we filmmakers live in. Such quality footage is astounding and I view it like I view Ferraris - I'm never going to be able to afford one, but I'm sure as hell pleased that such technological bravery exists and that such cars are envisaged, designed, tested, marketed, sold and serviced. They brighten our world.

The very fact that the EX series exists and has been so successfully brought to market at such a size, weight and price pleases me immensely. The fact that it's form factor doesn't please all men is no surprise to me at all; I simply rejoice that such a machine exists, and that managerial bravery at Sony ensured that from concept to production the project flourished.

tom.

Seems like I've been using 1/3" forever, so when I upgrade I'd like to move to 1/2". The main reason is for increased light sensitivity and gamma range for dark dance performances. Every year I weigh the pros and cons of the current technology. At least for my work the EX-R is too expensive especially with the media. Sure you can off load while shooting but that just introduces more equipment to fail, more money, and more work. Who needs to be fumbling around in the dark swapping cards and praying there are no problems off loading. In the end it introduces more problems than it solves. I'm going to stay patient and re-evaluate my options next year.

I wish the other manufactures would release 1/2" solution for the sub 10k market. Seems like Canon hasn't done much of recent and Panny is sticking to the 1/3". Due to the lack of competition in this are of the market Sony has no incentive to drop the price for the EXR.

I've posted my review of the PMW-350. If you've seen the Alister video then you want find many surprises, but I do get into the menus a bit in part 2. Here is the link:

Video: Sony's New PMW-350 Camera (http://www.abelcine.com/articles/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=428:video-sonys-new-pmw-350-camera&catid=17&Itemid=35)

Sure you can off load while shooting but that just introduces more equipment to fail, more money, and more work. Who needs to be fumbling around in the dark swapping cards and praying there are no problems off loading. In the end it introduces more problems than it solves.

Not for me it didn't. I filmed a concert last summer at Evergreen Lake uninterrupted. I only had two cards to work with, but I was able to keep the footage rolling because I didn't have to stop to change tapes. All I needed was a laptop pc for offloading one card while continuing to record on the other. I was working in the dark as well, outdoors even on just laptop battery, but not fumbling. In the end, it solved more problems than it introduced.

Dave, we are going to need to start a friendly betting circle ;) .......... My money is on this never happening. Too small a gap.
Well, it's the speculating that makes it such fun!! :-)

When the EX3 came out, the gap that I thought too small was between it and the EX1. It was only logical that a higher end shouldermount SxS camera had to come - the question was whether it would be 1/2" or 2/3", 35 or 50Mbs, and other such details. Well, now we know. (Towards the higher end, though I'm surprised it's 2/3" chips, but no 50Mbs.)

But as things stand at present, there seems a much smaller gap between the EX1 and EX3 than between the EX3 and the PMW350 - especially with the recent big upgrades to the EX1. Hence my speculation on an upgraded EX3/cut down 350 to sit more like halfway between the EX1 andthe 350.

I agree with Alistair. Current users of the DSR450 etc will want the PMW350 because of the chip size (and not worry too much about the price). But others may feel that too much to pay, yet want something a bit more than an EX1, (or even an EX3) especially ergonomically.
Incidentally, I'm missing beer. It's time you passed through this way again :)
Maybe mid-December!? Are you likely to be at the Sony event in London on the 25th-26th?

Not for me it didn't. I filmed a concert last summer at Evergreen Lake uninterrupted. I only had two cards to work with, but I was able to keep the footage rolling because I didn't have to stop to change tapes. All I needed was a laptop pc for offloading one card while continuing to record on the other. I was working in the dark as well, outdoors even on just laptop battery, but not fumbling. In the end, it solved more problems than it introduced.
As soon as you get into a laptop what's the point of swapping cards when you could simply capture directly to the laptop? If that's the case then any camera can do that. I'm not saying the laptop isn't an option but you can't deny all the baggage that comes with it: the cost, the reliability, the extra weight and room to pack, the battery lasting, the noise, the light from the monitor bothering audience members, etc. Never had a computer crash on you or a file transfer go bad? Since you're writing over the cards that means you have no backup. I don't find it appealing trading up to a more expensive camera so I can take more risks of having a disaster. I find 1h 23m tapes are sufficient to last until intermission and durable/reliable.

Pete, we used a Canon XH-A1 as a b-cam, so we were shooting on tape and solid state media. I had no problems or concerns with either workflow.

It's really okay to just say you don't want to upgrade to a more expensive camera and leave it at that, but obsessing over unlikely potential complications isn't going to change anyones mind. I already know the workflow is simple and convenient, and so does everyone who uses the camera.

I'll be at the Sony event on the 25th/26th of November, if anyone want's a guided tour of any of the EX cams I'll be only too glad to help.

I don't think there will be anything in between the EX3 and PMW-350. I think the 350 is going to steal a big chunk of PDW-700 business as it is, a further, cheaper shoulder mount EX would eat into that business still further and dilute the whole product range to the point where each model would only sell in small numbers making them more expensive. There has never been a camera between the Z1/Z5/Z7 class cameras and S270, again there is a significant price difference between these cameras, even though the S270 is still only 1/3". There is the HDV 1000 shoulder mount camera but that's just big box with HC1 sensor and deck, dressed up to look like a big camera and completely lacking any manual controls.

I think the 350 is going to steal a big chunk of PDW-700 business

I agree as I was all set to purchase a PDW-700 just before Sony announced the PMW-350. Now I am going to get the latter. My decision was based on the total cost of the cam and media choice as I haven’t got an optical disc workflow in place (so that’s an additional cost, I won’t have to fork out). Also the owning a nanoflash I believe the quality out of the PMW-350 will be unparalleled for the total cost.

As for something being between the PMW-EX3 and the PMW-350 I don’t see any reason for it. The PMW-EX3 is a great compact inter-changeable lens camera (hope that never changes) while the PMW-350 looks a great full shoulder mounted cam. What could you put between these two?

I don't think there will be anything in between the EX3 and PMW-350.
Ah, but that's not what I was speculating about. What I was wondering about is something between the EX1 (not the EX3) and the PMW-350, REPLACING the EX3, as well as effectively the 1/2" XDCAM disc cameras.

It just seems odd (very odd) to me that Sony have upgraded the EX1 in some very desirable ways, but not done the same to the EX3. I would have anticipated an upgraded EX3 in due course - but you've ruled that out. Hence, what about not upgrading the EX3, but discontinuing it, and bringing out a new model, roughly along the lines I suggest?

Otherwise, potential EX3 purchasers will look at the EX1R and think "why can't I have the xxx mode, as on the (cheaper) EX1R"?

Such a camera would then be a direct competitor to Panasonics HPX300, but with 1/2" chips.

I stress this is purely speculation/thinking aloud on my part, solely based on the reasoning above.

Pete, we used a Canon XH-A1 as a b-cam, so we were shooting on tape and solid state media. I had no problems or concerns with either workflow.

It's really okay to just say you don't want to upgrade to a more expensive camera and leave it at that, but obsessing over unlikely potential complications isn't going to change anyones mind. I already know the workflow is simple and convenient, and so does everyone who uses the camera.I respectfully disagree with you that relying on your ability to off load video to laptop while you're filming a performance in complete darkness isn't a distraction and doesn't add risk. I know ppl who film without a backup camera and they've never had a problem so their process must be good too. You're free to downplay the risk and added hassle but that doesn't diminish the validity of my opinion. I'll leave it at that.

It just seems odd (very odd) to me that Sony have upgraded the EX1 in some very desirable ways, but not done the same to the EX3. I would have anticipated an upgraded EX3 in due course - but you've ruled that out. Hence, what about not upgrading the EX3, but discontinuing it, and bringing out a new model, roughly along the lines I suggest?

Otherwise, potential EX3 purchasers will look at the EX1R and think "why can't I have the xxx mode, as on the (cheaper) EX1R"?

Well upgrading the EX-3 so soon would upset current users IMO. I believe the EX-3 will get a revamp in 12 to 18 months time. As for choosing an EX-1R or EX-3 is probably determined by whether you need interchangable lenses or not? Just as it was before.

The EX-1R doesn't have anything that an EX-3 user couldn't live without! Nice features yes. I suppose the far red problem is the only thing that would really make a difference I suppose. Then again the Tiffen T1 1R fixes that, if you can get hold of one that is!

The EX-1R doesn't have anything that an EX-3 user couldn't live without! Nice features yes.
I can't remember the full list offhand, but three features which particularly struck me about the upgrade were native SD recording, cache-record, and "copy all clips" from card to card mode. They may or may not be applicable or useful to any given user, but if I was getting an EX3 now, and could see they (and others) were available on a cheaper camera, I'd not be impressed.

As for "why an EX3 over an EX1R", then apart from interchangeable lenses, my reason for wanting it would be genlocking and timecode synchronisation abilities.

Sony used to have the DSR300 series of cameras. I wouldn't be surprised if they do something similar, or maybe the F350/F330 is already filling that slot? Possibly an PMW330 or PMW300 with 1/2" sensors and everything else as per the PMW350.

I would speculate that it may be possible to add cache record to the EX3 and copy all clips via a firmware update, maybe even allowing one of the assignable buttons to be used for one touch S&Q on/off.

Maybe David is right, perhaps the EX3 will get replaced in the future, but I doubt it would be a traditional shoulder mount camera.

I would speculate that it may be possible to add cache record to the EX3 and copy all clips via a firmware update, maybe even allowing one of the assignable buttons to be used for one touch S&Q on/off.

huh? My old EX3 already has a button that turns S&Q on and off - and it allows me to dial in the frame rate instantly without going back to menus.

I'd love to see the cache record, and although I have no knowledge of how clip copy is implemented now, I would think that "copy all" would be an easy thing to add to the EX3.

Pure speculation and hoping...that Sony is thinking about a paid firmware/board upgrade for the EX3 to bring the EX-1R functionality into it. One could only hope.

On press of the button on the EX1R goes directly to the S&Q mode that you have preset in the menu. Press it again and it returns to your preferred standard frame rate. Sure you don't have to go in to the menu, but you still have to fiddle about dialing in the rates you want.

I don't think it will be possible to add the SD codec to an EX3 (or EX1). The EX1R is slightly wider at the rear, in part to accommodate the HDMI connector but also to make space inside for the DV codec.

Alister, do you know if the the PDW-F335 and F350 will be discontinued or that Sony keeps them on the market? I don't see a realistic future for these camcorders with the release of the PMW-350. They seem not to have many benefits but the disc-based workflow.

I have not heard anything about them being discontinued, but they are getting somewhat left behind in the picture quality front.