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I shot this today with my HMC-40. It was very bright and I had the camera on full auto, except for when I went into manual iris mode to lighten up a scene under a breezeway. I THOUGHT I returned the camera to auto mode afterward, but I'm kind of wondering now because I have never encountered such a severe "moving zebra lines" effect in any outdoor videos shot with my other videocameras.

Anyone know what I did wrong? I am not very happy with myself or the camera at this point.

What quality setting was that footage shot at?

By "Zebra" lines do you mean the stair step effect on some objects that are on angles?

I shot at highest quality setting 1080/30p.

Some of the problem, I know, is the compression for the web. But I also am re-examining the files and it looks as though my AVCHD converter program may be a culprit here too. There is still zebra-ing (I don't really know what to call it - wavy lines in the roof of one building, moving-blinds effect in some of the windows, flickering when panning white picket fence) in the MTS files, but my converter seemed to accentuate it.

I re-rendered the video using the MTS files. Seemed to clear up the zebra-ing on one rooftop, but not much of the moving-blinds and white fence flickering. I'm still dumbfounded about that.

It looks like your "zebra lines" are actually aliasing. Most camcorders have this problems to varying degrees. Trying viewing your footage in the original .mts format or transcoding to ProRes (Mac) or Cineform (PC, Mac too?). Whatever you do, don't apply any sharpening to your footage as this will exacerbate the problem.

There are several post methods to reduce aliasing but I'm not an expert on this. Maybe somebody who knows can chime in.

Hi Sherri

If you shoot in progressive mode and add a fair amount of movement to the scene then the lines will get worse!! On top of everything the HMC40 uses CMOS chips which are not the greatest when it comes to recording fast motion.

Now, one important question is : What are you rendering your progressive file to or are you watching raw footage??? If you are converting the MTS file your convertor will normally add interlacing to the footage so you could also be looking at interlacing lines.

If you need to use progressive footage then make sure that the converter keeps it progressive!! Also if the converted footage is interlaced, it will be upper field first and if you render to SD (which is lower field first) you have problems!!

I suggest as step one, get Panasonics free Main Concept Transcoder from their website and try converting some MTS footage to Widescreen AVI and see what it looks like???
I use 2 x HMC72's (that's the PAL HMC70) and for weddings I transcode to AVI and get really nice results!!!

Chris

A fair number of people also use the DVCPROHD codec. You can get the transcoder for free off panny's website. I think you have to register your camera to get into the downloads section.

16GB of PH came out to about 80GB. I think that was 720 60P footage. Not sure how the transcoder handles 1080 vs 720 etc. as far as file sizes.

Hi Denny

Not any more!! You can simply go and click the download and Panny will send you a link and password. Just make sure that you download the Version 2.1 as this also allows you to transcode to AVI widescreen in both 16:9 and 4:3 and the quality is great!!! No need to register your camera at all but you will need a valid email to get the link/password!!
(For anyone else remember that the transcoder ONLY works on Panasonic AVCHD cameras!!!)

BTW Sherri, the other patterns that appear in your video are called "moire" and are supposed to happen when the pattern (like a tiled roof or brick wall) "match the camera's pixel matrix....look carefully at professional TV productions and you will see even the pros have problems with it!!!!

Chris

Thanks everyone for the replies. I'm going to spend today working on my camera technique and editing. Looks like I will have plenty to do.

As a start, I downloaded the Mainconcept 2.1 AVCHD transcoder from the Panasonic Web site.

Guess what? It doesn't recognize the HMC-40 clips as coming from a Panasonic camera. I'm getting an "unsupported footage" error.

Sigh. A great start to my day....:)

After many hours of testing and retesting, I have finally devised a conversion profile in Elecard that seems to be multi-purpose. After dinner today, I shot some new footage that I knew would give the camera all sorts of fits - a chameleon climbing up the screen on my porch. After encoding, the SD files actually looked better than the original MTS files.

But despite how good the conversion is, Premiere Pro CS4 doesn't seem to play as nice with these Panasonic clips as it does with clips from my Sony camcorders. The Adobe Media Encoder (h.264) still adds a bit of moire and distortion whether I'm using the MTS files or the downconverted ones.

Bottom line, I'm beginning to wonder if I made a $2,000 mistake. My Sonys - HDR-SR11, HVR-V1U and HDR-XR500V - worked beautifully right out of the box. No moire, aliasing or any quirky problems with CS4. Stunning high def video, great SD (recorded in-camera).

I wanted the Panasonic as an affordable, tapeless, pro quality eventual replacement for my V1U. I had high hopes after my first assignment - the footage was awesome, but it was shot after 6 p.m. If I have to worry that I'm going to get moire, aliasing and other artifacting in bright afternoon light - which in South Florida is every day - then what's the point of using the Panny at all?

Hi Sherri

The MainConcept encoder requires that the file structure from the camera be maintained so try reading the card directly. If you decide to copy the stream content to a drive then you have to copy the entire folder structure intact!!! I personally just plug the card into a card reader and transcode from there.

I must admit that the change from CCD for 3MOS sensors immediately put me off the HMC40 and I stayed with two HMC70's which give brilliant results!!!

Before you toss in the towel, try shooting in the normal 60i mode and you might be pleased with the result!! 30P can be very fickle and often people who shoot in progressive mode to get "filmic results" end up with other issues.

Chris

Hi Chris

The shots I did tonight of the chameleon were in 60i and yes, even with the moire from the screened porch, the resulting MTS file did look better. I have another assignment during the day tomorrow and the Panny will be in tow. I'm only taking it to non-deadline assignments now because I can't afford to have big problems on deadline like I did last night.

I tried using the Mainconcept transcoder directly from the card as you suggested, but it still says "unsupported footage...can only transcode footage shot with a Panasonic camera!" I'm guessing Mainconcept has no profile for the HMC-40 yet.

Hi Sherri

According to the website Version 2.1 ONLY supports Panasonic footage shot at 1080i and not any progressive footage. It's maybe worth doing a few seconds of 1080i footage and seeing if that works???

The only "professional" advice I have received about moire patterns is avoid them!!! Even in top series like MASH I have seen shots with moire patterns so the pros get it too!! I also shoot Realty Property Condition Reports here and get plenty of moire pattern when I'm filming the "insect screens" on windows!! (Normally I would avoid shooting them but with these it has to be part of the video!)
Try to avoid shooting (especially in bright light) anything with a repeating pattern...tiled roofs on houses...face brick walls ... you will find if you just re-compose the shot a little with a minimum amount of pattern it will not be a problem.

Chris

Hey again Chris

Thanks for the advice. I'm going to be taking the videocam on a cruise with me at the end of the week, so I can guarantee it will be getting a workout. No roofs, but a lot of bright light out on the Lido deck and in port.

And FWIW, the latest footage I tried to transcode with MainConcept was 1080i, still no go. Grrr.

Hi Sherri

According to the website Version 2.1 ONLY supports Panasonic footage shot at 1080i and not any progressive footage. It's maybe worth doing a few seconds of 1080i footage and seeing if that works???


Chris,

I have transcoded 720 60P with 2.1 no problem.

Not sure where you read that.

Hi Denny

The Panny website says that!!! I only shoot in 1080i so I never bothered to test any other modes. I wonder why it won't work with Sherri's setup.

I works fine with the HMC70's and 150's and I really don't see any reason why Panasonic would suddenly change the structure???

However, enjoy the cruise, Sherri!!

Chris

Hi all

Well, tonight I was fiddling with the Panny yet again. I re-formatted the card and did some more test shots. Popped the card into my computer's card reader and tried the MainConcept transcoder again. And it worked! I didn't change any settings on the camera, simply re-formatted the card and shot new footage.

I transcoded to AVI because that's what I'm going to need for quickest camera-to-web workflow in Premiere. Files look good, didn't see any moire (I shot some rooftops in bright sun)...Yay! Things are looking up!

Next time you have trouble, try using the AVCHD restorer utility. I have recently heard of some people having problems with the transcoder and after running the restorer on the card they were able to transcode.

Hi Sherri

I found also that it's critical to do all your card formatting in the camera.!!! It's easy to decide to use the computer to delete files but it seems to mess up the format!!

You can also transcode from your HDD BUT you have to copy the entire folder structure from the card to the computer, not just the MTS files. MainConcept expects to see the folder as it is on the card.

Nice to see you are winning!! I transcode all my footage to AVI 16:9 Anamorphic and the results are excellent. Even on a brand new 42" TV it's very hard to tell the difference between footage on a DVD that has been rendered directly from the AVCHD and that from the transcoded AVCHD. Of course rendering the transcoded footage is way faster too!!!

Chris

I believe it even states somewhere in the manual (or maybe the FAQ) that formatting of the card must be done in camera.

Yes, it says it in the manual, and I put it in bold in The HMC150 Book too -- always format the cards in the camera.

It's a hard habit to get into, because the cards come pre-formatted as FAT32, but -- too many reports of issues, hassles, glitched frames, all that stuff, and it usually all goes away if you format in-camera. So -- bold, underlined, and highlighted, always format your cards in the camera, especially before first use.

Not to worry, my friends. I always format in the camera.

I had a compact flash card flake out on me several years ago after I had erased all of its contents on the computer and put it in my Minolta 7D without re-formatting. Right in the middle of a shoot, the card just stopped dead in its tracks and the files I did manage to record were corrupted. So I learned the hard way that the format button on the camera is your friend!

Hey Sherri,

I'm using Adobe Premier CS4 on all these videos using the H.264 codec. I'm not trying to hijack your thread, but maybe it will help to alleviate some of your problems...not sure.

I just realized to my surprise that all of these low light videos I posted were shot with the gain set at 24db. To me, from the statements I've read, you don't want to go above 12db, so after reading the manual and figuring out how to change it, the rest of my videos were shot with the max at 12db. But, the following videos were shot in full auto, auto gain control, and because of the low light I'm suspecting all at 24db:

YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Low Light Test #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz_kLRPGH1U)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Low Light Test #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LGeh672W3w)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1TvGSxXVac)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH1080 30p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbapMABkrFg)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH1080 24p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd_Qt2P2tqc)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrJHP8xu9aU)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 30p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WRWAbS2YXk)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 24p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfEbt3QInms)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 HA1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoTXk8WFPdY)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 HG1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijNA4u7LMaY)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p - 50 & 25% Slow Motion Raining Car Action #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chRUHPZ4t3s)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p - 50 & 25% Slow Motion Raining Car Action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_x7916_E-M)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p - 75% Slow Motion Raining Car Action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEjkZMyVa_s)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p - Raining Car Action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1C7NrD2D8E)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1jm8tYD0ao)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p Shutter Speed & Slow Motion Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7I5KEWRmrE)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p Handheld Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcOS1gM_z5E)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 HE1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VyWb0F9CZo)

I don't think the above videos look bad at all at 24db, personally. What do you guys think?

Here's the rest of the videos shot with the gain maxed out at 12db, but these aren't all shot in the dark like the above ones. These you'l notice are tests of the gain, shutter speeds, auto gain control vs. manual gain control, digital zoom, white balance, and chroma levels, as well.

YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/2000 Shutter, Manual Gain 0-12db (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JQHQZMbRLs)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/1000 Shutter, Manual Gain 0-12db (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9drbNib8Mg)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/500 Shutter, F7.2 - 12db Gain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVZJSWpR_xY)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/250 Shutter, F11 - 0 db Gain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd8J8Oxp0I0)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/120 Shutter, F11 - 0db Gain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRVs6rVE_wg)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - Full Auto, Manually Adjusting Iris Dial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5zM7RZUV4w)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - AGC Vs. MGC 1/2000 Shutter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-otdIu_L1U)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - AGC Vs. MGC 1/1000 Shutter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B4RiYmJzbs)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/2000 Shutter Speed, High Gain to 34 db (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmEAqGb6hN4)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - Auto White Balance Presets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAFwQi0WNgU)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Digital Zoom Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYWnhjmTYxA)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Chroma Levels from -7 to +7 = Saturation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNvd1G7KCeg)

All of the above videos are being uploaded here: UTV REPORT (http://www.utvreport.com/videos/hmc40videos) for download if you want the uncompressed files to watch on your computer versus YouTube. The dates of 10/12, 10/14, and 10/15 are all shot using 24db gain. And, 10/18 are the ones listed immediately above this text.

All of the videos aren't uploaded to the server yet, but I think all the 10/18 ones are already. The others are uploaded as we speak. You'l also notice that the videos on 10/18 are much larger than the rest. The reason for this is I outputted them from Adobe Premier at full 21mbps, instead of 6 mbps for all the rest. I can't tell much difference...can you guys? I'm not sure it's worth the extra size, download and upload time personally. I've found too that the best way to play these to see issues is at full screen, not the standard YouTube size.

I hope this helps...if anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. These were things I wanted to know before buying the HMC40, but I couldn't find out there, so I bought it. :)

Chris

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the video links, you saved me a lot of work. I normally go through those kinds of tests on new cameras but haven't had the time with the HMC-40.

After spending the weekend reviewing old footage, shooting new footage and scrutinizing the final results, here's what I came up with as my "problem." And since I am not as technically proficient as some of my forum-mates, I'd welcome suggestions on how to fix the problem or maybe it's something that can't be fixed at all.

I took my worst moire-laced clip from last Thursday - the green wavy roof - and watched it in several times in several different programs: VLC, Elecard, Windows media player, PowerDVD, etc. Played the clip at nearly full screen. Saw the waves in some programs, others played the clip fine. (yes, I know that the programs could be tweaked for interlacing, de-interlacing, etc., but I left them on default settings for comparison's sake.)

Since the clip played fine in some of the programs, I deduced there was nothing technically wrong with it. But when I dragged the player windows down to 576x324, which is the size of our web site's player online, suddenly there was moire all over the place. I realize compression (we use h.264, VBR of .065 to 1.5 mbps) is going to degrade the video quality, but this was before compression was added. I've never seen such moire and artifacting at that size as the Panny clips exhibited. The widescreen size is proportional so what's causing the degradation?

OK, still assuming there was nothing wrong with the original clip, I brought it into Premiere Pro CS4. Playback in PPCS4 showed the dreaded wavy roof lines. After rendering in the Adobe Media Encoder, the lines were still there. I haven't delved into the AME to see if I can set new encoding parameters, but that will happen with my new round of testing.

The interesting thing to note here is that the Panny HMC-40 is the ONLY camcorder I've had this moire problem with. I've had Sonys, Canons and an earlier Panny consumer AVCHD camcorder that have given me great video and never a problem in Premiere, even sized for the web.

I'm really stumped here as to what's going on.

Hey Chris,

Thanks for the video links, you saved me a lot of work. I normally go through those kinds of tests on new cameras but haven't had the time with the HMC-40.Yeah, I totally understand. I wanted to see these sorts of things before buying it, but I couldn't find it, so I just sprung for it and tried it out. I like it so far...

After spending the weekend reviewing old footage, shooting new footage and scrutinizing the final results, here's what I came up with as my "problem." And since I am not as technically proficient as some of my forum-mates, I'd welcome suggestions on how to fix the problem or maybe it's something that can't be fixed at all.

I took my worst moire-laced clip from last Thursday - the green wavy roof - and watched it in several times in several different programs: VLC, Elecard, Windows media player, PowerDVD, etc. Played the clip at nearly full screen. Saw the waves in some programs, others played the clip fine. (yes, I know that the programs could be tweaked for interlacing, de-interlacing, etc., but I left them on default settings for comparison's sake.)

Since the clip played fine in some of the programs, I deduced there was nothing technically wrong with it. But when I dragged the player windows down to 576x324, which is the size of our web site's player online, suddenly there was moire all over the place. I realize compression (we use h.264, VBR of .065 to 1.5 mbps) is going to degrade the video quality, but this was before compression was added. I've never seen such moire and artifacting at that size as the Panny clips exhibited. The widescreen size is proportional so what's causing the degradation?I wonder if this has anything to do with the difference between square pixels or widescreen pixels. I've been wondering this myself. In Premier when I start a new project, it has square pixels or widescreen pixels for 1080/60i. In 720/60P is just square pixel progressive.

OK, still assuming there was nothing wrong with the original clip, I brought it into Premiere Pro CS4. Playback in PPCS4 showed the dreaded wavy roof lines. After rendering in the Adobe Media Encoder, the lines were still there. I haven't delved into the AME to see if I can set new encoding parameters, but that will happen with my new round of testing.I'm wondering if it either has something to do with the initial setup of of Premier, either (non-anamorphic) square pixels or anamorphic widescreen pixels. Or, have you tried a faster VBR. Default Youtube HD settings in Premier is 6 mbps, so maybe when you do it at 1.5 mbps, it's not able to catch up quick enough. I have no idea...just throwing out ideas.

The interesting thing to note here is that the Panny HMC-40 is the ONLY camcorder I've had this moire problem with. I've had Sonys, Canons and an earlier Panny consumer AVCHD camcorder that have given me great video and never a problem in Premiere, even sized for the web.

I'm really stumped here as to what's going on.Hopefully we can figure it out...maybe I'll go out and shoot some video of white picket fencing and screens too to see if our output settings or something is different and fixes the issue. Can you tell me or give me the links to these "bad videos" you're mentioning where it's really bad, and maybe I can duplicate the same problem to help you fix it?

Chris

Hey Sherri,

I just made the video you have at the beginning of this thread full screen and it's very pixelated, unlike my videos I've uploaded to Youtube. Do you have to resize your videos manually for your site or does it operate like Youtube? Even my lowest light at 24db gain don't look like that...I'm wondering what your output settings are that are causing that.

What setting are you shooting in? 1080/60i?

Chris

Hey Chris

That was shot in 1080/60i then downconverted to SD 720x480 mpg (1.2121). SD files were imported into Premiere then output for the web via Adobe Media Encoder at 576x324 (h.264, 29.97fps, progressive, vbr 1 pass target 0.65/max 1.5 mbps).

Note, the AME settings for the bitrate are a corporate standard and I have to use them to keep bandwidth costs down. But even so, I've never had a really noticeable problem until I started using the HMC-40.

Here's some videos I went out and shot quickly today to try to replicate your aliasing:

1080/60i: YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 White Fence - Panning PH1080/60i (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4prkOoCovs)
720/60P: YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 White Fence - Panning - PH720/60P (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1-SNnzD_a0)
Just a random drive back handheld while driving my truck, trying to reproduce the jello effect everyone talks about with cmos sensors: YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - Handheld driving on center console (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaFPUjeGKSs)

I've got another one uploading now that was the same fence zoomed in closer, and the aliasing seemed to diminish. Anyone know what's causing this?

Chris

Hey Chris love that scenery. I'm moving to Tennessee!! :)

I see you were able to somewhat replicate my picket fence situation in those two videos. I shot one snippet of the fence from across the street and the other right at the park entrance. And, as you can see in my case, the moire didn't diminish the closer I got - I think it actually got worse. I was panning faster than you were, too, which made the "blooming" of the picket fence more prominent.

Grrr. I hope there are no picket fences in Cozumel, Panama or Costa Rica, which are the stops on my upcoming cruise.

Hey Chris love that scenery. I'm moving to Tennessee!! :)

I see you were able to somewhat replicate my picket fence situation in those two videos. I shot one snippet of the fence from across the street and the other right at the park entrance. And, as you can see in my case, the moire didn't diminish the closer I got - I think it actually got worse. I was panning faster than you were, too, which made the "blooming" of the picket fence more prominent.

Grrr. I hope there are no picket fences in Cozumel, Panama or Costa Rica, which are the stops on my upcoming cruise.Hey Sherri,

No doubt it's frustrating to have a nice new camera that's not performing as expected. I'm hoping that we can figure it out via codec or something that fixes it. I think my raw files had the problem, though, too, so unless there's some way of doing it with the iris or something along those lines, I'm not sure how to fix it. Maybe Panasonic will come out with a fix internally via firmware upgrade or something like that. Has anyone else had these problems? I don't normally shoot white fence rails, so I'm not as concerned, but I'm mainly concerned about panning fast with it, non tripod, so I bought a Bogen 561B monopod to help steady the shots and help eliminate any inherent cmos problems.

Chris

Chris

Here's the zoomed in version: YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Zoomed In Aliasing - Moire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCm_j_FVBws) shot in full auto, then 1/2000 shutter speed and the rest in full auto.

Chris

Hi Guys

That's not really moire with the picket fence but actually the vertical lines breaking up when you fast pan!! CMOS chips do that and there IS a warning about fast movement on the HMC40 brochure so it will be in the manual as well.
However in practice you would never pan that fast so I doubt whether it's worth worrying about!!
Moire doesn't come from the chip type but is quite common with all sensors. With my HMC72's a large brick wall got in the camera view and you can see the moire pattern clearly. And that's with CCD chips!!! Generally it's best to just avoid any surfaces with repetitive patterns!!!

Chris

I often pan with fast moving vehicles as they pass by. Does this problem of aliasing or moire only exist when panning against repetitive looking static objects then? Or, should I try not to pan at all using the HMC40? Seems like that couldn't be the case.

Chris

Well, I think with the picket fence I should have used a faster shutter speed. I didn't realize that in full auto the default shutter speed is 1/60. But the wavy lines on the green roof and the "blooming" effect from a striped shirt and a window with vertical blinds in other clips should NOT be happening at any shutter speed while I'm standing dead still. Like I've said before, I've owned a slew of camcorders in the last six years and this is the first one I've ever had these problems with. My Sony V1U is a cmos sensor and I've NEVER had problems with moire or blooming or vertical-line breakage. And the noise is not an AVCHD thing because my Sony HDR-SR-11 and HDR-XR500V handycams don't do it either.

I'm with Chris R. - why the heck would you want a videocamera you couldn't pan with? I mean, I go out to accident scenes, house fires, etc. I'm going to have to pan sometimes. I don't want to have to worry that I'm gonna get garbage footage from a $2,000 videocamera.

I wonder if these problems can be adjusted out by altering some of the scene file items? I have no idea what most of them are, but I seem to remember reading that some of those items might be able to help.

As far as upping the shutter speed, it didn't appear to make a bit of difference in my videos. Does it seem like it did to you guys?

YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Zoomed In Aliasing - Moire (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCm_j_FVBws)

Sherri, I wouldn't think the camcorder defaults on 1/60 shutter speed. I would think it would pick a combination of shutter and iris for optimal exposure automatically. I think if you're shooting in full auto and you switch over to manual, giving the brightness of what you're shooting, you'll see the shutter speed and iris be different given different conditions. But, I could be wrong too. I just think when I've switched from auto to manual before, I've looked at the gain, it it displays if it's applying any gain or not.

I discovered that while shooting with one overhead light, a max of 12db of gain isn't enough to expose properly. All my low light videos were shot at 24db, because I'm guessing the camera's sensor size isn't big enough to expose properly at low light. But, everyone's said this, which is another reason I'm guessing I won't need an nd filters for this camera in broad daylight either...I decided on just a uv filter and polarizing filter.

Chris

Just catching up on this but -- there's no aliasing or moire going on in that video. You're shooting at 1/2000 shutter speed! Of course that's going to make everything look stuttery -- you've removed all the motion blur.

You should *always* be using 1/60th when shooting 1080/60i. That's the only way you'll get natural motion rendition. The shutter speed should normally never be changed when using a video camera; the shutter is not used for controlling exposure. You use the iris, and ND filters, for controlling exposure.

The only times you change shutter speed are when you're going for a specific effect, such as the "Saving Private Ryan/Gladiator" effect, or streaky smeary blurring.

If you're shooting 24p, 1/50th is an appropriate shutter speed. If you're on 30p or 60i or 60p, 1/60th is the right shutter speed. If you're shooting 60p with the intention of using it as slow-mo footage, then you'd use 1/120.

Other than that, leave the shutter speed alone, if you want your motion footage to accurately convey motion.

Just catching up on this but -- there's no aliasing or moire going on in that video. You're shooting at 1/2000 shutter speed! Of course that's going to make everything look stuttery -- you've removed all the motion blur.Only part of that video was shot using 1/2000 shutter speed. The rest was shot in auto...

You should *always* be using 1/60th when shooting 1080/60i. That's the only way you'll get natural motion rendition. The shutter speed should normally never be changed when using a video camera; the shutter is not used for controlling exposure. You use the iris, and ND filters, for controlling exposure.Glad you said this, because that's not what I would have done, given my experience with still photography. Based on what you know about the HMC40's poor low light performance, in broad daylight, would you still recommend nd filters to allow me to turn the iris as close to open as possible for DOF? If so, what brand would you recommend? I've got the Tiffen polarizer and UV filters, but I didn't get any nd filters yet.

The only times you change shutter speed are when you're going for a specific effect, such as the "Saving Private Ryan/Gladiator" effect, or streaky smeary blurring.I'm not sure I know what you're talking about with the Saving Private Ryan effect. To me, when shooting still photography of high speed action, I would raise my shutter speed, open up the aperture and freeze the motion, if desired. If I want the wheels/tires to look as if they're spinning, I'd lower the shutter speed to somewhere around 1/60-1/250th depending on how fast the vehicle was moving. Do the shutter speeds not correlate the same on a video camera, which is why they're so much lower?

If you're shooting 24p, 1/50th is an appropriate shutter speed. If you're on 30p or 60i or 60p, 1/60th is the right shutter speed. If you're shooting 60p with the intention of using it as slow-mo footage, then you'd use 1/120.Barry, do you mind explaining for shooting high speed action footage, why I'd pick one setting over the other? I'm confused at the difference between 1080/60i and 720/60p. I definitely need to do slow motion clips of the footage I shoot, so my first inclination is to use 720/60p. But, why/when would I want to use 1080/60i or 24p in either 1080 or 720p? It seems to me I'd want the highest fps possible, so when slowing it down in Premier it looks fluid, rather than choppy. But, am I safe in assuming for TV everyone's using 24p, and how does effect the usefulness of the slow motion footage without looking bad?

Other than that, leave the shutter speed alone, if you want your motion footage to accurately convey motion.So, based on your above information, is it safe to assume that if I dial open the iris, the camera isn't going to automatically change the shutter speed to properly expose...it's just going to overexpose it, right? So, in order to bring in the depth of field desired, I'd have to use nd filters to lower the camera's light input, which would allow me to open up the iris and achieve better DOF? Do you apply multiple nd filters at once, or just try to pick the best one for the situation, so having multiple ones is a must either way?

Thanks a ton for the help Barry...I would have had terrible footage and been really pissed. I look forward to your responses to the above...

Chris

So, based on your above information, is it safe to assume that if I dial open the iris, the camera isn't going to automatically change the shutter speed to properly expose...it's just going to overexpose it, right? So, in order to bring in the depth of field desired, I'd have to use nd filters to lower the camera's light input, which would allow me to open up the iris and achieve better DOF? Do you apply multiple nd filters at once, or just try to pick the best one for the situation, so having multiple ones is a must either way?

Thanks a ton for the help Barry...I would have had terrible footage and been really pissed. I look forward to your responses to the above...

Chris

While in photography you increase shutter speed for a sharper capture of motion (less motion blur), in Video/Film you have to keep in mind that you are doing that at 24, 30 or 60 frames a second.

Yes, you add ND filters to keep your DoF (though a 1/4" chip is not going to be very shallow to begin with). In fact as Barry discovered the HMC40 does not actually close beyond 2.4 (correct Barry?) and actually slides in ND filters when you close the shutter more than 2.4.

This is not a common thing for a video camera. In fact it is the first time I have heard of it. It makes sense though as the 1/4" chip has crazy DoF (not shallow) and by sliding in ND filters it help keep what shallowness it does have. Make sense?

While in photography you increase shutter speed for a sharper capture of motion (less motion blur), in Video/Film you have to keep in mind that you are doing that at 24, 30 or 60 frames a second.

Yes, you add ND filters to keep your DoF (though a 1/4" chip is not going to be very shallow to begin with). In fact as Barry discovered the HMC40 does not actually close beyond 2.4 (correct Barry?) and actually slides in ND filters when you close the shutter more than 2.4.

This is not a common thing for a video camera. In fact it is the first time I have heard of it. It makes sense though as the 1/4" chip has crazy DoF (not shallow) and by sliding in ND filters it help keep what shallowness it does have. Make sense?So, does that mean, I shouldn't bother with ND filters then if the camera already builds it in when I slide the iris below 2.4? That doesn't make sense to me, because when I do slide it below the image is still getting brighter, which if the electronic nd filter is implied it wouldn't be, right?

In regards to the shutter speed, so is it better then to have the lowest possible shutter speed possible to stop the motion, but no higher, since it's processing it so often? Any higher and I'm only hurting the video quality because it's so processor intensive?

Chris

Chris

Based on what you know about the HMC40's poor low light performance, in broad daylight, would you still recommend nd filters to allow me to turn the iris as close to open as possible for DOF?
Unquestionably.

If so, what brand would you recommend?
The best you can. I usually recommend Heliopan or B+W.

I'm not sure I know what you're talking about with the Saving Private Ryan effect.
Staccato, unnatural motion. They used it in the beach-storming scene in SPR, the zombies in "28 Days Later" did it, "Gladiator" did it. It was a look that was really in vogue for a while, but I don't notice it that much anymore.

To me, when shooting still photography of high speed action, I would raise my shutter speed, open up the aperture and freeze the motion, if desired. If I want the wheels/tires to look as if they're spinning, I'd lower the shutter speed to somewhere around 1/60-1/250th depending on how fast the vehicle was moving. Do the shutter speeds not correlate the same on a video camera, which is why they're so much lower?
That's exactly how it works on video too. But, it's just not that common to do it. Video is about motion, not frozen motion. If you want to make a choppy/stuttery/staccato look (such as the aforementioned SPR look) then yes, you can experiment with the shutter and do that. But in general, for video purposes, we just don't mess with the shutter at all, it gets stuck on 1/60 and you control exposure through the aperture and ND filters.

Barry, do you mind explaining for shooting high speed action footage, why I'd pick one setting over the other? I'm confused at the difference between 1080/60i and 720/60p. I definitely need to do slow motion clips of the footage I shoot, so my first inclination is to use 720/60p. But, why/when would I want to use 1080/60i or 24p in either 1080 or 720p?
Progressive is always better than interlaced for slow-motion or freeze-frame purposes. 720/60p is ideal for capturing action and for slowing it down in post.

1080/24p has more detail than 720/24p, 1080/30p has more detail than 720/30p, but 1080/60i and 720/60p are about comparable; the additional temporal resolution of 720/60p makes up for the additional spatial resolution of 1080/60i. However, the advantages of progressive over interlaced make 720/60p my choice for live-action or to-be-slow-mo'd footage.

It seems to me I'd want the highest fps possible, so when slowing it down in Premier it looks fluid, rather than choppy.
Definitely.

But, am I safe in assuming for TV everyone's using 24p, and how does effect the usefulness of the slow motion footage without looking bad?
"live" TV is shot at 60i or 60p. 24p is for the "film" look. Slowing down 24p is awful, you pretty much don't want to do that. If you know you're going to want something slowed down after the fact, you're infinitely better off shooting that section in 60p.

So, based on your above information, is it safe to assume that if I dial open the iris, the camera isn't going to automatically change the shutter speed to properly expose...it's just going to overexpose it, right?
Correct -- when in manual mode. In full auto mode it might jiggle the shutter speed, but in manual mode it will never change the shutter on you.

So, in order to bring in the depth of field desired, I'd have to use nd filters to lower the camera's light input, which would allow me to open up the iris and achieve better DOF?
In theory, yes -- but in reality, you're dealing with 1/4" chips, and it's going to be nigh unto impossible to get any real shallow depth of field out of it.

Do you apply multiple nd filters at once, or just try to pick the best one for the situation, so having multiple ones is a must either way?
I would always want to use one filter. Stacking filters can cause a color cast in your image.

In fact as Barry discovered the HMC40 does not actually close beyond 2.4 (correct Barry?) and actually slides in ND filters when you close the shutter more than 2.4.
Sort of. The iris will stop down from wide open to about f/2.4 (I think... don't have the notes in front of me). Then, if you continue telling the camera to stop down the iris, it won't -- instead, the ND filter slides in, gradually. Then once you've stopped down far enough that the ND filter is fully in place (which I think is about f/6.4), any further closing of the iris wheel will actually start moving the iris blades again.

This is not a common thing for a video camera. In fact it is the first time I have heard of it. It makes sense though as the 1/4" chip has crazy DoF (not shallow) and by sliding in ND filters it help keep what shallowness it does have. Make sense?
It appears to be common for the tiny-chip HD camcorders, but I've never seen anything like this on 1/3" or above.

It's not so much for DOF, it's to avoid diffraction. Tiny-chip HD cameras are far more prone to diffraction issues than larger-chip cameras are. On a 1/3" you could see diffraction as early as F/4 in the red wavelength, and an HVX200 would have some serious resolution loss at f/11 because of diffraction. The HMC40 has much smaller chips, and 4x as many pixels, making it *very* susceptible to diffraction. So, this system keeps the iris open as much as possible for as long as possible, helping to avoid the territory where diffraction sets in and starts to overly soften the picture.

The downside is, you will likely never know what your true f-stop is. Think of it more like t-stops; the amount of light being transmitted is changing, even if the actual f-stop isn't mechanically changing for that two-and-a-half stop range.

So, does that mean, I shouldn't bother with ND filters then if the camera already builds it in when I slide the iris below 2.4?
You'll probably still need an external filter; the built-in one only goes to about 2.5 stops or so.

In regards to the shutter speed, so is it better then to have the lowest possible shutter speed possible to stop the motion, but no higher, since it's processing it so often? Any higher and I'm only hurting the video quality because it's so processor intensive?
Using a higher shutter speed causes unnatural staccato motion. There's not necessarily anything "wrong" with that, it's just ... not what's done. It's a different look. It looks choppy. It doesn't flow, like we're used to video moving. Video (and film) have a natural motion blur, using a higher shutter speed eliminates that blur. Instead of feeling like continuous motion, you instead get the feeling you're watching a bunch of still frames.

Use it for artistic purposes if you want, just do so on purpose, knowing that you're diverging from the typical motion look.

It should be noted that a lot of sports tends to be shot at 120 shutter. I have tried that on a HMC150 set at 720 60p 120 shutter and find I prefer the look of the shutter off (well actually 60 when at 60P).

I found 60P be good for showing legs running (as apposes to legs moving in blur) and not overly choppy.

We're shooting Football at night and Hockey. 60P is what looks best for us at the moment, especially for hockey. I'm still testing for football.

It might depend on the sport. With Hockey the puck can appear to leap across the rink when at a higher shutter. You need a bit of blur just to keep track of the puck (to much blur say 30P and it looks weird).

High shutter speeds are like watching TV through a fan. As the blades spin by, temporarily blacking your view several times a second, they give the picture a staccato effect simular to what Barry mentioned.

You guys rock. I'm going to experiment with 1/60 and 1/120 shutter to see what looks best with the hmc40. I really appreciate all the help guys.

Chris

Here's some testimonial videos I put up on Youtube from my Glamis, CA dune trip.

YouTube - MCX-USA RZR Turbo Kit Customer Testimonial - Greg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qyc89IN82pE)

YouTube - MCX-USA RZR-S Turbo Kit Customer Testimonial - Cliff (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-aUlOnS7T4)

YouTube - MCX-USA RZR-S Turbo Kit Customer Testimonial - Doug (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HkzfX98VHFc)

YouTube - MCX-USA Prowler XTZ 1000 Turbo Kit Customer Testimonial - Jose (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZULzwt_ZHso)

YouTube - MCX-USA RZR Turbo Kit Customer Testimonial - Gary (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTJukeFxu5w)

YouTube - MCX-USA RZR-S Turbo Kit Customer Testimonial - Brenda (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPvrXO5Degg)

All of this whipped together as one video for the SEMA show that just ended...all rough cuts, very little editing done to make them look more professional. I'm very impressed with the camera, and I've found that my matthews tripod when shooting today is a huge help. I'm shooting out in UT today and the next two days, and using the tripod makes all the difference in the world for quality shots. I played it through component out as 1080i, even though I shot it in 720/60p, and it looked outstanding on the television today. Unbelievable actually. The exposure was spot on, colors at +1 chroma look great. So far, I'm very pleased with the camera.

Chris

YouTube - HCR Racing UTV and Side by Side Long Travel Kits in Action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLV3ABx2jDA)

This was shot with the HMC40 in PH720/60P using the Panasonic .7x Wide Angle Lens and no nd filters all shot on a Matthews M25 Tripod. Sound was captured using the rode videomic with dead cat.

Chris

Here's a video I just completed:

YouTube - HCR Racing Long Travel Kits Compared to Stock (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o4utezpM6s8)

It was filmed using the HMC40 in PH720/60p with the following setup:

- Panasonic Wide Angle .7x Lens
- No ND Filters
- Rode Videomic with Dead Cat for Sound
- Matthews M25 Tripod
- OIS On
- Slow Motion is 25% of normal speed
- Edited with Adobe Premier CS4 on a Macbook Pro 17"
- Outputted using Mainconcept H.264 Youtube HD preset, but changed the fps to 59.94 from 24 fps.
- +1 Chroma

Any pointers, comments, or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Chris

Hello -

Have you tried viewing your video using the playback capability of a Panasonic HDTV? If so, is there any difference?

I also have the HMC-40 and I've been playing around with it a bit - not much yet as I'm working on some older projects - but I did confirm that my Panasonic plasma HDTV will play the HMC-40 videos "natively." Meaning that I can take the SDHC card out of the camera, pop it into the SDHC slot on my Panasonic plasma HDTV and just start viewing the raw movies/stills. From the fairly limited testing I have done, I'd say the results have been very good.

If you don't have a Panasonic HDTV, you could probably "test" one at BestBuy. I saw a beautiful 65" Panasonic plasma HDTV with the SDHC card slot in the "home theater" area of the store.

Just an idea for a quick check.

Best,

Lee

Hey Chris

Awesome video!! That would sell the product, no question about it!!!

Gosh, those shocks certainly work pretty hard don't they???

Despite the CMOS sensors, there is certainly no evidence of any motion problems either!! The mag wheels might have displayed some odd traits but no-one would notice it!!!

Nice work and a great sales tool for sure!!

Chris

Thanks Chris...never got an email notice that you replied to the thread...sorry.

Here's a quick vid I put together of my bachelor party weekend, mainly just to show you guys what 1080/24p looks like out of the camera. I shot it entirely in auto, and it picked a 1/50th shutter speed I believe most of the time. Keep in mind it's a home video, not edited much at all. :)

YouTube - Brimstone Recreation UTV & Side by Side Rentals - Dec. 4-6th, 2009 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cO-sg5UTzPQ)

Chris