I am in the market for a small, lightweight HD solid state camera (not DSLR) to supplement my EX3 and I wonder if anyone has done a functional comparison, the codec notwithstanding, between the JVC HM100, the Panasonic HMC 40 and or the HMC 150 (several inches longer than the first two but still half the weight of the EX3)?

Thank you in advance.

I've been struggling with the same issue. I wanted a small HD camcorder that was professional, lightweight, and won't become obsolete by this weekend. I went to DV Expo in Pasadena in September to check them out. Here is what I wrote in my blog: http://budurl.com/tmxj

I think as a "B" camera to an EX, it's the codec that would probably be the most important factor to me, mainly for compatability reasons. Any alternative would have to be a great deal better in other respects to make up for that, IMO.

I also think you'd find the 151 look soft compared to an EX if directly intercut. Both the HMC40 and the HM100 should be better, though they are both likely to be worse than the 151 in low light. (And all substantially worse in low light than the EX)

Hi:
Thank you for the link, I had already read your blog and enjoyed the content and empathize with your confusion. I live in South Florida, a virtual desert when it comes to searching for a reseller capable of demonstrating pro or pro-sumer video equipment. I therefore rely upon the various forums from which I attempt to assemble a reasonable assessment of the hardware/software in question but in this instance, I have arrived at the same place you indicated in your blog.

I like my EX3 but with rods, matt box, glass filters, Anton Bauer battery attached along with a support system to aid in hand holding (I use a large Sachtler whenever possible) it's a bundle to handle. To wit, my quest for something smaller and lighter capable of producing reasonably good image quality to used for those occasions where a tripod is neither acceptable nor appropriate nor convenient. The JVC sounds interesting but numerous posts suggesting a less than acceptable build quality, poor zoom function along with a few other niggles, has me concerned. The HMC40, on the other hand, seems to be more sturdy (this is not first hand info, mind you) and provides several seemingly useful features. THEN, there is the HMC 150, that I am beginning to lean towards... several inches longer and approx. 2 lbs heavier than the HMC 40 but still much smaller and lighter than the EX3. It seems to offer more in the way of immediately available features (switches rather than menu options) than the HMC 40 with the added advantage of 1/3 CCD's.

Have I made a clear decision, well... not really. I'm sure that as time goes by some other manufacturer will come along with an improvement over those describe above but that will always be the case, given the nature of profit driven product cycles. So, timing isn't as much a factor in the decision making process, nor is the price but valid information is, and that is where my quest falls flat!

I think as a "B" camera to an EX, it's the codec that would probably be the most important factor to me, mainly for compatability reasons. Any alternative would have to be a great deal better in other respects to make up for that, IMO.

I also think you'd find the 151 look soft compared to an EX if directly intercut. Both the HMC40 and the HM100 should be better, though they are both likely to be worse than the 151 in low light. (And all substantially worse in low light than the EX)

Hello:
I believe I was busy formulating my response and initially missed your post. That said, am I to assume that you have made a direct and visual comparison between equivalent footage shot with both the EX1 and HMC 150? After all, it is not an EX1 that I am attempting to complement but, rather, an EX3. I do encounter situations where hand holding is necessary and I did not find the Ex1 suitable for that purpose, IMO. With the proper rig, the EX3 can accomplish that task but not for very long unless one has consumed a copious amount of spinach.
In addition, you indicated that the HMC40 and HM100 "should be better." I assume that you are referring to image quality but your use of a conditional word suggests that you are basing your conclusion upon specs rather than visual inspection?

As for the difference in image quality, vis-a-vis a "B" camera, I would expect my EX3 with its larger chips and much greater cost to provide a more impressive, higher quality image, codec notwithstanding, but one must accept a trade off of sorts for the convenience of portability and hand-hold-ability.

......am I to assume that you have made a direct and visual comparison between equivalent footage shot with both the EX1 and HMC 150?
Yes. On a 1920x1080 plasma. (Obviously on a lower res screen, the difference would be less marked.)

The EX3 and EX1 should be almost identical for picture quality. The other thing about the HMC 150 is that it is better in 720 mode than 1080. With 1080 recording, the picture is no sharper than 720 (though it seems to have a bit more artificial edginess) which is what theory predicts, but the codec seems far more stressed. I could see compression artifacting at first generation in 1080 mode, but not in 720 mode.

The 150 is a good camera for the price, but it's not as sharp as the EX by a big margin.

Yes, comments about the HMC40 and HM100 were based on specs. In your shoes, the thing I'd be most looking at there would be low light performance of both of them. Not 0dB performance, but take them somewhere badly lit, put gain in to expose, and see how they compare. (And I'd like to know the answer to that one.)

Thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately, I do not access to any of the cameras mentioned, with the exception of the EX3, of course, which I own. There do not seem to be any local dealers here in S Florida that can provide assistance, so, I have been relying upon information gleaned from various forums.
With that in mind, and moving up the scale a tad while keeping in mind your comments vis-a-vis image quality as compared to the Ex series, what are your thoughts on the Panasonic HPX 170?

After viewing some footage shot with the Panasonic HPX 170 and speaking with several owners, I believe that I have come to a decision. Although the storage media is costly, the codec plus the 4.2.2 space is enticing. Furthermore, the camera is light and well balanced for hand holding purposes. While, as discussed in earlier posts, the image may not be a sharp as the EX series, I doubt that it will be noticeable in the vast majority of situations even when inter cut with the EX3, with the possible exception of extreme close-ups. There is currently a $500.00 rebate offer direct from Panasonic and the camera comes with a hard to beat 5yr warranty.

Well I can't offer any insights on the JVC, but I own the HMC40.

It is a really nice little camera. Has some great professional features. It has a full raster 1920x1080 3MOS chip set and produces some amazingly sharp images. Low light is less than stellar, but for my subjects that is rarely a problem.

There are some interesting write-ups comparing the HMC40 to the HMC150 and the Canon 7d. Compared to the HMC150 it is about 3 stops slower, so if low light is important then the HMC150 would be a better solution for you. The HMC40 is significantly sharper than both the HMC150 and the 7d.

Panasonic has done a remarkably good job cramming lots of functionality into fewer button. For example, the white balance button toggles between ATW, ATW Lock, 5.6k preset, 3.2k preset and A/B manual white balance. The HMC150 uses more buttons to give you the same result (personally I find this easier). The HMC40 has some other nice features including the waveform display, touch auto focus, the previously mentioned 3 second pre-record and interval recording (for time lapse).

The HPX170 and the HMC150 have very similar imaging systems (including the same 3CCD chip set). The resulting images are VERY close. The main differentiator is the P2 workflow versus the SDHC workflow.

The CMOS/CCD tradeoffs between the HMC40 and the JVC/HMC150/HPX170 might be significant for you. CCD smear versus CMOS rolling shutter (jello, skew, flash) may be important to you.

I edit on a 2.4 GHz Dual core laptop running Windows Vista (I use Vegas Pro) and don't find AVCHD editing to be that much of a problem. Sometimes I edit natively, but I also have Cineform NeoScene for transcoding if I am going to be doing complex edits.

The HMC40 is hard to beat at $2000, but if the CMOS or low light issues are unacceptable then for the $3500 I would go with the 1/3" CCD HMC150 before getting the 1/4" CCD JVC.

Thank you for your insights.

As for the CMOS chips, I am quite familiar with their downsides since I do own a Sony EX3 but, personally, I have never experienced the rolling shutter issue.
As for the Panasonic HMC 40 vs HPX 150 & 170, I am a Mac/Intel/FCP user and am leaning towards the 170 given the P2 workflow, codec, (storage card cost notwithstanding) and several features that 150 lacks.

.........while keeping in mind your comments vis-a-vis image quality as compared to the Ex series, what are your thoughts on the Panasonic HPX 170?
It may be fine in isolation, but I don't think it's a good choice as "B" camera to an EX3. By the time you've added the cost of the P2 media, you're getting pretty close to the cost of an EX1. And that would match your EX3 far, far better, whilst giving all the other advantages of compatible media, batteries, codec etc, to say nothing of comparable low light performance to the EX3.

I think you may be surprised how much difference you do see between an intercut EX and a 170, and more likely on distant views, landscapes, even more than close ups.

Don't be swayed by the talk of 4:2:2 regarding the 170. That implies equal chroma/luminance vertical resolution, so a recording resolution of 1080 lines vertically. Unfortunately, the front end can only manage 540 lines for chroma with the 960x540 chips, so there's little point of being able to record twice what the front end produces. (Pixel shifting only improves the luminance resolution.)

And remember DVCProHD is subsampled whereas AVC-HD (or 35Mbs MPEG2) aren't. To 960x720 or 1280x1080. Hence the 720 mode doesn't capture all the available horizontal resolution, the 1080 mode is far better than the front end can supply. And using the 1080 mode means no 60p ability or realistic overcranking etc.

I originally suggested check the lowlight of the HM100 and the HMC40 before buying, so didn't think it would be good, but..... 3 stops!? If true, that's incredibly poor, the HMC150 itself isn't the best at low light. I don't know what the HM100 is like, but it's hard to believe it's worse, so together with the codec compatability, that's the way I'd personally be looking first in your position. (I'd still want to check an HM100 out first though.) Or get an EX1 if you can afford it.

Hello:

First off, let me say that I truly appreciate the time and effort that you put into your response, however, I believe that you have overlooked my primary objective. I am looking for a hand holdable camera, smaller and LIGHTER than my Ex3 , and while the Ex1 is smaller it is not readily hand holdable and at 6.3 lbs, not that much lighter than the 8 lb Ex3. Cost is really not an issue in this instance.
However, that said, I have found a local pro who has a new 170 and I will be comparing its output with my Ex3 over this weekend.

While I agree that a review of specs might suggest otherwise, the only true test of acceptability is in the eyes of the beholder. To wit, who would have thought that the 10 megapixel chip in the Leica M8 could produce such stunning and artifact free 32x40 enlargements as I have hanging in a local gallery? Technical specifications clearly do not reveal the entire picture (to make a pun).

Ron,

I would be interested in your comparison results. Please post back your findings after this weekend.

While I agree that a review of specs might suggest otherwise, the only true test of acceptability is in the eyes of the beholder.
No, I won't disagree with that at all, though I think it's important to check the results on a 1920x1080 screen, and I hope you get the chance to set up the 170 side by side with your EX3, shoot identical framings, and intercut the results. Don't just rely on any old monitor that happens to be in the shop. Record the results, edit it them in your system, and look at them on a known 1080p monitor.

Additionally, do the same test in low light levels. (Lower than normal artificial room lighting, so you need to use a fair amount of gain. Alternatively, use the same ND on each, just to get into a high gain situation.) I've found that can really show up differences between cameras that daylight shooting doesn't.
Technical specifications clearly do not reveal the entire picture (to make a pun).
No, agreed again, but don't only think of what the pictures look like. I'd prefer not to mix codecs in the edit for practical reasons, which I suppose is a big argument in favour of the HM100.

"... I'd prefer not to mix codecs in the edit for practical reasons, which I suppose is a big argument in favour of the HM100."

Although the following question may reveal a degree of naivety, I agree with the above statement but if the ingested footage is converted to Pro Res what difference might it make?

I will indeed post my findings when available but I should mention one other factor that must be plugged into the decision making process and that is, that any camera I eventually select will be purposed differently than the Ex3 and although a time may come when it will be called upon to stand in as a "B" camera, the primary purpose for its purchase is for the acquisition of footage that might not be otherwise obtainable with the larger and heavier Ex3 or, for that matter, the Ex1. A smaller and lighter camera allows it to be carried for longer periods of time and to places where a larger device may not be appropriate and under those circumstances may serve as the primary acquisition device.

Ron, I own HM100, and I also filmed with EX1 on some recent shots. Although HM100 produces nice picture, but is a far cry as far as "pro" camera. Although they use a Porsche engine (XD CAM codec), but the body is more of the crappy beater car. The shutter/ aperture control is a joke, you can place a filter on a lens, no safe shooting area marking on the display, not even 1/120s shutter for 720/60 shooting- just basic. The zoom is by far the worst- much worst then any consumer camcorder I ever used. For 3500 it should have been a much better product.

Hi Ron I have the HM 100 and its a fantastic camera . I used it in 4 jobs and all the clients are more than satisfied with it . I f you would like to see some of the footage I shot let me know .
I notice you live in Boca too .


Doug

Hi Doug:

Nice to hear from someone local.
I appreciate your offer and may be contacting you to have a look, depending upon my upcoming experience with the HPX 170, which, at the current time is my first choice.

Ron did you eventually buy the Panasonic HPX 170? I also live down here in south florida (hollywood) I use to shoot runway fashion, celebrity and interview type videos in SD with my Ikegami HL-DV7AW. that sucker is way to big to carry around now as I'm get older. I also am looking for a nice HD camera but I was thinking about the new ACVHD or the new Panasonic AVC-Intra codecs.

I also wanted to have a camera hand holdable to take traveling and on sailing events here in south florida. I was in Switzerland and France and would have loved to had smaller pro camera to shoot with. I would have had to store everything to my laptop and do the process when I got home though.

Hi Douglas:

No, I have yet to make the purchase, am waiting to see what Sony's "big announcement" brings this Tuesday. But barring their release of a new camera with the 170's ergonomics, I will most likely be placing an order shortly.
Like you, I find that age (and infirmity) is beginning to take its toll and carrying around a heavy camera (Ex3 with rods, matt box, Anton Bauer, etc.), shoulder mount or otherwise, is no longer appealing and for that reason as well as those you have already mentioned, I have been searching for something that is light, easy to hold, tapeless and that does not require too greater or any real world sacrifice in image quality. The list is quite short, indeed, and the only two that seem to fit the bill are the Panasonic HPX 150 or 170. I am aware of the smaller JVC HM100 and Panasonic HMC 40 but I am not thrilled by the 1/4" chips and I really do not need another CMOS camera, as I plan on keeping the EX3 for tripod use. After reading through this thread and probably others, you can see that there are a host of opinions vis-a-vis the aforementioned models and, no doubt, many of them contain valid criticisms of all the various models but in the end, the decision should be based upon individual needs and the compromises one is willing or unwilling to accept. From my perspective, I would rather own a quality piece of equipment with good imaging capability that I will not hesitate to carry around rather than a behemoth with arguably superior resolution that I tend to leave behind due to its weight and size. It is with the same logic and goals that I, years ago, subscribed to the Leica M series of cameras and although I currently own a Canon 1 DS MK II, I can truthfully say that it hasn't left the shelf in over a year, whereas, my Leica M8 frequently sees the light of day... or night.

I have yet to make the purchase, am waiting to see what Sony's "big announcement" brings this Tuesday.

thanks for that info I can't wait to see what's up with Sony also. I did look at some of their consumer cams but decided the feature sets and lack of XLR inputs turned me off.

It is with the same logic and goals that I, years ago, subscribed to the Leica M series of cameras and although I currently own a Canon 1 DS MK II, I can truthfully say that it hasn't left the shelf in over a year, whereas, my Leica M8 frequently sees the light of day... or night.

I have the Canon EOS 5D Mk II and the 85mm F1.2 mk II that I carry around with me locally (Fashion Shoots, beach or beautiful locations) but when I travel like you it's always the Canon G10 (in my case) because lugging around the 5D with two or three lenses is just a pain.

Ron, a week ago I went again into the North Cascades and shot some stock footage with my HM100. Like I said, this camera produces a very good, and quality picture, with very good colors, however it also has some limitations. I used in on Mt Rainier (14 500ft) in August and the size is perfect for such applications. If you agree you that you are overpaying for this cam and learn how to shoot with this limitations (mainly a lack of workable zoom) and you have a bigger cam as your A camera, then you should be happy with HM100.
Also don't count on customer support. Judging by zero response by JVC on this web page to repeated requests regarding firmware updates on HM100, I would not hold your breath if this camera will start falling apart on you and you need help.

Good Morning Robert:

Thank you for the heads-up. I have had prior experience with JVC products, GMY HD-250U which I traded for a new EX3, and I am aware of the build quality issues and it is in part for that reason that I am not considering the HM100, nor am I considering the HMC 40 due to the 1/4" chips.
I had planned on coming back with a comparison review of comparable footage recorded with both the Ex3 and HPX 170 but due to scheduling difficulties it was not possible but will be in the near future. That said, however, there really is no logical reason for doing a direct comparison given that the whole purpose behind my quest for a second camera lies in the desire for something smaller that retains the features that I deem necessary for such a device. When one takes that simple fact into consideration, all of the discussions and pontifications regarding the technical differences between, for example, the EX3 and 170 quickly become moot. No one would argue with the statement suggesting that the Panasonic AG HPXX-300 is more technologically advanced than the 170 while presenting with a sale price not too distant from the latter, but one is a shoulder mounted camera and the other is hand holdable... hardly comparable when portability is the primary consideration and with that in mind, the only camcorders that seem to fill that bill are the Panasonic 150 and 170. Will something more capable come to light in the near term future? Most likely, but barring something of bombastic nature, that meets my criteria, coming out of Sony's upcoming announcement, I will most likely be ordering a 170.

Hey guys,

I just realized to my surprise that all of these low light videos I posted were shot with the gain set at 24db. To me, from the statements I've read, you don't want to go above 12db, so after reading the manual and figuring out how to change it, the rest of my videos were shot with the max at 12db. But, the following videos were shot in full auto, auto gain control, and because of the low light I'm suspecting all at 24db:

YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Low Light Test #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qz_kLRPGH1U)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Low Light Test #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2LGeh672W3w)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1TvGSxXVac)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH1080 30p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qbapMABkrFg)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH1080 24p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd_Qt2P2tqc)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrJHP8xu9aU)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 30p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WRWAbS2YXk)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 24p Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfEbt3QInms)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 HA1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hoTXk8WFPdY)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 HG1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijNA4u7LMaY)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p - 50 & 25% Slow Motion Raining Car Action #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chRUHPZ4t3s)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p - 50 & 25% Slow Motion Raining Car Action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_x7916_E-M)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p - 75% Slow Motion Raining Car Action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cEjkZMyVa_s)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p - Raining Car Action (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1C7NrD2D8E)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1jm8tYD0ao)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p Shutter Speed & Slow Motion Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7I5KEWRmrE)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 PH720 60p Handheld Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AcOS1gM_z5E)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 HE1080 60i Low Light, Rain, & Fog (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VyWb0F9CZo)

I don't think the above videos look bad at all at 24db, personally. What do you guys think?

Here's the rest of the videos shot with the gain maxed out at 12db, but these aren't all shot in the dark like the above ones. These you'l notice are tests of the gain, shutter speeds, auto gain control vs. manual gain control, digital zoom, white balance, and chroma levels, as well.

YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/2000 Shutter, Manual Gain 0-12db (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JQHQZMbRLs)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/1000 Shutter, Manual Gain 0-12db (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9drbNib8Mg)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/500 Shutter, F7.2 - 12db Gain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVZJSWpR_xY)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/250 Shutter, F11 - 0 db Gain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nd8J8Oxp0I0)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/120 Shutter, F11 - 0db Gain (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRVs6rVE_wg)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - Full Auto, Manually Adjusting Iris Dial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T5zM7RZUV4w)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - AGC Vs. MGC 1/2000 Shutter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q-otdIu_L1U)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - AGC Vs. MGC 1/1000 Shutter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6B4RiYmJzbs)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - 1/2000 Shutter Speed, High Gain to 34 db (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FmEAqGb6hN4)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 - Auto White Balance Presets (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAFwQi0WNgU)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Digital Zoom Test (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYWnhjmTYxA)
YouTube - Panasonic HMC40 Chroma Levels from -7 to +7 = Saturation (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNvd1G7KCeg)

All of the above videos are being uploaded here: UTV REPORT (http://www.utvreport.com/videos/hmc40videos) for download if you want the uncompressed files to watch on your computer versus YouTube. The dates of 10/12, 10/14, and 10/15 are all shot using 24db gain. And, 10/18 are the ones listed immediately above this text.

All of the videos aren't uploaded to the server yet, but I think all the 10/18 ones are already. The others are uploaded as we speak. You'l also notice that the videos on 10/18 are much larger than the rest. The reason for this is I outputted them from Adobe Premier at full 21mbps, instead of 6 mbps for all the rest. I can't tell much difference...can you guys? I'm not sure it's worth the extra size, download and upload time personally. I've found too that the best way to play these to see issues is at full screen, not the standard YouTube size.

I hope this helps...if anyone has any questions, please don't hesitate to ask. These were things I wanted to know before buying the HMC40, but I couldn't find out there, so I bought it. :)

Chris