Hey everyone,

this whole studio RGB thing keeps confusing me, and I'm unsure how to proceed.
Right now, I've got a film in Sony Vegas which I've graded such that all colors fall within 0 and 100 IRE. On my computer monitor, the resulting image looks washed out with no proper blacks and whites.
To judge the image on my computer monitor, I've added a Levels FX onto the track which expands the black and white levels to go from 0-255 instead of 16-235. Doing this, everything looks great.

Now the question is: how do I need to encode this? With the Levels FX turned on or off? I intend to encode using Mainconcept AVC, and this is supposed to be burned to Blu-ray and played back on standalone players.

Thanks

you should always stick to 16-235 , this is the standard and you never know how 0-255 could be interpreted (some software/device just cut, others rescale).

Okay, and everything outside of the 16-235 will get clipped to black and white when played back, right?
The reason I'm asking is because I believe the various codecs do include all the data between 0-15 and 236-255. So when the playback device realizes that there IS data in those areas, it'll still set black to 16, clipping everything below? Or do I need to make sure there is absolutely no data in these areas, basically pre-clipping before encoding?

clipping is bad

adjusting levels to avoid clipping is the way to go

I am sure most NLE have waveform monitors, follow these basic rules
How to read waveform monitor and vectorscope (http://www.videoproductions.com.au/html/waveform-vectorscope.html)

Right, so I now rendered a test video where I kept everything within 0 and 100 IRE. I encoded it using Mainconcept MPEG-2, using these color settings:
Color primaries: ITU-R Rec. 709 (1990)
Transfer: ITU-R Rec. 709 (1990)
Matrix Coefficients: ITU-R Rec. 709 (1990)

However, when I play back the video file, the colors are washed out and I get no proper white and black. I tried using Windows Media Player, DVD Architect and Power DVD.
I would think that at least DVD Architect and Power DVD should display everything the way my Blu-ray hardware player will, so I'm worried now that I'll end up with washed out colors.

be sure the PowerDVD software player does not have any visualizations set, that will stuff up the natural look

Hey everyone,

this whole studio RGB thing keeps confusing me, and I'm unsure how to proceed.
Right now, I've got a film in Sony Vegas which I've graded such that all colors fall within 0 and 100 IRE. On my computer monitor, the resulting image looks washed out with no proper blacks and whites.
Thanks

3 things:

1. What Version of Vegas are you using?
2. In File > Properties what color space are you using? 8-bit or 32 bit?
3. Are you really trying to make color decisions based on what you see in your computer monitor? If so, you'll NEVER get accurate results. Rec.709 is a broadcast standard. Your TV responds to those signals very differently than your computer does.

The advice to stay in 16-235 is an interesting one. It has it's merits. I choose to work in linear gamma 0-255 from end to end and much prefer it. But since I use .mov on my timeline (specifically DNxHD) I am immune to many of the issues you guys see editing other formats.

Glenn Chan has a great page set up to discuss these issues. I suggest you read it and absorb it.

Vegas 8: Glennchan.info (http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/v8color/v8color.htm)
Vegas 9: Color spaces and levels in Sony Vegas 9 (http://www.glennchan.info/articles/vegas/v8color/vegas-9-levels.htm)

@Anton: all of those settings look good to me, I'm not using any visualizations.

1. What Version of Vegas are you using?
Pro 8.0c

2. In File > Properties what color space are you using? 8-bit or 32 bit?
8-bit

3. Are you really trying to make color decisions based on what you see in your computer monitor? If so, you'll NEVER get accurate results. Rec.709 is a broadcast standard. Your TV responds to those signals very differently than your computer does.
I know the colors won't match 100%, but I still need correct black and white levels.

Maybe one of you could look at the short test video I rendered out? It's about 15 MB.
Test video (http://www.digipiction.de/grade/16-235_test.m2v)

http://www.digipiction.de/grade/16-235_test.jpg

This is one of those things that appears to get fuzzier as delivery formats expand. If you're delivering for broadcast, it has to be legal. Full stop. If you're delivering for DVD, I'm not sure but I don't think 16-235 is a hard and fast rule. Could be wrong about that though. Delivering for the web or computer? 16-235 is irrelevant.

Looking at the luminance parades, neither video appears to be legal. The vectorscope appears to show values out of bounds above the Yl marker. I know enough to know that you can get video closer to the way you think you want it to look with illegal values but there are other consequences.

It appears that you want high contrast images but going outside the lines is not the way to get there. Spend some time learning the finer points of color correction and you will get the look you seek.

I never work in 8-bit. EVER. Colors are never accurate. (If I am cutting only I may consider it, but once I start to color, 8-bit is a distant memory)

I know the colors won't match 100%, but I still need correct black and white levels.


And it's not the matter of the colors matching 100%, it's the matter that you are flying blind. Period. For the purposes of doing final color, you might as well turn your computer monitor off. It's lying to you.


Maybe one of you could look at the short test video I rendered out? It's about 15 MB.


If you plan to deliver for broadcast, Tripp has it right. Get the colors and waveform legal. Simple as that. And understand, that if you LIKE the way movies look on TV, they are being broadcast using those SAME scopes. Well, better scopes but same idea.

DVDs do NOT have to meet the same criteria as broadcast. Capture a still from a movie and pull it into your editor alongside your footage and look how it scopes. That was an excellent lesson for me when I was working in DV.

So I propose this...

Take some of your footage, set the scopes so that the video goes from 7 IRE to 100. Take that same clip and place it a little further down the timeline, set that for 0-100 IRE, then do it again and set it for -8 - +105 IRE. Render that out for DVD/BluRay using your current methods then stick it in your DVD or BluRay player connected to an actual TV. Then make your judgements.

it's the matter that you are flying blind. Period. For the purposes of doing final color, you might as well turn your computer monitor off. It's lying to you.
You make it sound like there's some funky voodo magic going on.
My monitor is connected to the graphics card via HDMI, and my projector is connected to the Blu-ray player via HDMI. Every film frame is stored in RGB and has a value between 0 and 255. Everything is digital, so you can hardly say I'm flying blind.

If I were to connect the projector to my graphics card as a secondary display, Windows would still look like Windows, with all the same colors that I see on my monitor.

I can't burn a test disc to see what the hardware player does differently than the software players because I don't have a Blu-ray burner. I need to get this right BEFORE I send it off to have it put on Blu-ray.

It's not voodoo, it's just that there are numerous variables.

1. Whether the project properties are set to 8bit or 32 bit (in Vegas 9, there are 3 settings for this)

2. Whether you are working in 2.22 gamma or linear gamma.

3. Whether the file(s) on the timeline are studio or computer RGB

4. Whether the file you are rendering to is EXPECTING studio or RGB

5. Whether you are monitoring via Vegas DV, 3rd party DV, or something else.

That's 5 independently operating variables that all could effect what you have going on. And that doesn't include any layers or nesting that you might have in the files to try and wrangle these variables.

This is why I stay in computer RGB end to end. I have a WYSIWIG workflow that works for me. And it also allows me to output a DPX file at any point to check it with an independent viewer, histogram, RGB parade, and waveform. You can't output DPX in Vegas 8 so you need some other way to check.

Also, how you are monitoring your signal would have been CRUCIAL information from the start of this thread. Omitting that has led to you getting some answers that do not apply to your situation. Maybe someone will have the wherewithal to amend their answers to suit how you are actually monitoring.

when it comes to video of any kind, train yourself not to let Y levels go below 0 and above 100IRE

in your case, the blacks are illegal and so are the whites

here is more waveform basics
How to read waveform monitor and vectorscope (http://www.videoproductions.com.au/html/waveform-vectorscope.html)

once you have that right, adjust you PC monitor contrast and brightness to your liking

Anton's post points out another place that you could be flying blind. If your monitor is not correctly calibrated for color and luminance you are not really "seeing" what your video looks like. I selected the Colorvision Spyder to calibrate my monitors as reports on it have been good.

Without proper monitor calibration you could be flailing around in the dark.

when it comes to video of any kind, train yourself not to let Y levels go below 0 and above 100IRE

in your case, the blacks are illegal and so are the whites
Lorne Miess (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0585825/) has done an fxphd course on color grading, and in at least one of his videos he willingly clips the highlights because that's the look he wants.

So does this mean I need to use some sort of filter that clips all the values below 0 IRE to 0 IRE before I encode? Once again: I WANT those values below 0 IRE to be black, all of them.

The reason why this is so annoying might be how Vegas handles this stuff. Even though I've set my waveform to Studio RGB, it does NOT clip the values at 0 IRE. It allows values all the way down to ~ -7 IRE* What I want is for everything below 0 to be black and everything above 100 to be white.

*and the preview window only displays ~ -7 IRE as pure black. 0 IRE is a dark gray.

Are your project settings still 8-bit with 2.22 gamma? I think you are beginning to understand why I use linear gamma. Values below zero are B-L-A-C-K. Always.

And yes, there is a filter you can use to clip. It's is "Sony Broadcast Color" and use the "Extremely Conservative" setting.

Okay, I'll try that filter, thanks.
I haven't changed my bit depth and my gamma at all because I have several hundred clips on my timeline, all of which are graded individually. I will NOT redo this.

You know what's interesting. I loaded the video file into Virtualdub, and guess what - it doesn't look washed out the way it does in all the media players I've tried. I used "Copy source frame to clipboard" to check it out in Photoshop, and the values are good. I get blacks and whites exactly the way I want.

So I'm now thinking that for some reason those other media players don't do a conversion from 16-235 to 0-255.

I was right! I just played the file in Media Player Classic and checked out the properties of the decoding filter that was used, "MPV Decoder":
There is a "TV->PC" button, and once I pressed it the video played back with correct black and white levels, going from washed out to looking the way I want.

This leads me to believe that the video will play correctly on a Blu-ray hardware player.

So I'm now thinking that for some reason those other media players don't do a conversion from 16-235 to 0-255.


And why should they? Again, this goes back to what a player EXPECTS. If you have a player expecting a TV level signal (16-235) it will set 16 to BLACK and 235 to WHITE. Anything outside of those numbers is clipped. If the player EXPECTS 0-255 and you GIVE it 16-235, it's going to look washed out.

Your computer monitor is EXPECTING 0-255, but your video signal from the NLE is giving it 16-235 which is legal for broadcast. It only looks right on your monitor when you input illegal values which push the signal closer to 0-255.

A DVD player or TV *expects* 16-235 and it does NOT expect anything outside those boundaries. So when you create your mpeg2 or AVC for DVD or BluRay, it's going to encode to 16-235. That is PURE BLACK on TV and PURE WHITE.

Does this make sense?

It makes perfect sense now indeed. Awesome!

I am not familiar with Vegas but it is simple in Edius

simlpy tick "safe color" and all below 0 and above 100 is clipped
www.videoproductions.com.au/edius5/safe-color.avi (7mb)

and if you don't want clipping, then apply YUV curve filter and adjust