Hi,

I do wedding video productions with my partner, we are used to XL1s, PC, Canopus and Premiere 1.5. We are changing to HD but after doing lots of research and investigation we got more confuse, which one to buy?

Canon XL-H1A or EX1? Considering the price and quality, size, etc. is XL-H1a a worth while camera? We already purchased one XL-H1a but we need the second one now, should we stay with it or buy EX1 as second camera? Is Canon XL-H1a a good camera, why it is not as popular as XL1 used to be? Is Canon pro video camera series losing it?

When I talk to Canon suppliers they say definitely XL-H1a, Sony will say EX1 and JVC is talking about the JVC 200 or 700 one of them.

Can some one please tell me all advantages and disadvantages of both cameras to me also if there is a better choice rather than these two!

Please help
Regards
Mitchell

Sydney Wedding Videos and DVDs - Icon Film Productions (http://www.iconfilmproductions.com.au/)

Plenty of info on both on the forum, you could do a search.
EX1 Pros: Sensational image quality, progressive and interlaced modes, under and over cranking 1-60fps, LCD screen is excellent (better than the mega bucks Sony and Panny models!), built in lens very good quality and has proper focus, zoom and iris controls (nice)
Cons: Viewfinder crap, rolling shutter can be problem with motion, and definitely with flash guns (though I gather there was a firmware fix to help this?)

XL-H1 Pros: Decent image but not on par with EX1, interchangeable lenses, standard lens good quality but has the stupid continuously rotaing focus, crappy zoom ring and iris on the camera body
Cons: ND filters on lens rather than body so if change lenses can't use them, crappy viewfinder

Also massive difference is one is tape the other is cards

Steve

Quote: but has the stupid continuously rotaing focus, crappy zoom ring and iris on the camera body"

Not true. On the XLH1a, the focus and zoom rings are improved a lot and the lens now include an iris ring.

So the lens has a stop at each end rather than just rotating? I've never seen an H1A, so my apologies.
Steve

They don't have stops, but as Jean-Philippe says, they are *significantly* improved compared to previous versions. Plus the iris ring is on the lens barrel, as he has already pointed out.

Quote: ...On the XLH1a, the focus and zoom rings are improved a lot and the lens now include an iris ring.

Not only with the XL 20X HD lens. The Canon XL HD 6X lens also has an iris ring on the barrel; and if you want iris f/stops clicks on a ring that locks at widest and smallest aperture without rotating, you can also choose the Canon FD and Nikkor lenses via a simple adapter.

I would think that since you have an XL H1A, getting another one to match would be best.

I currently own the XL H1S and once had the EX1, and both are excellent cameras. I found the Xl\L image to be very good, and have stayed with the line since.

I think for workflow, it would be best to stay with the XL.

I had an XL-2 for SD and loved it, crappy focus rings and all. For my HD camera I went with the Sony EX3 because of its form factor and its image quality. I do not do weddings.

If I were to do weddings I would probably go with the Canon XL-H1a instead. The EX3 has it in every category except for what really matters in weddings. I know, I don't do weddings so how do I know?

Weddings are one off never to be able to be re-shot never can fail situations. In this case it is my humble opinion that tape still has it over solid state in that tape is its own backup. Capture the event on tape and then capture from the tape for editing and final production. Put that inexpensive tape on the shelf and know it is good for many years without issues. The same can't be said about solid state yet and archiving it is definitely not as easy, or it isn't as cheap.

The next way the XL-H1a is going to be better is in representation of black synthetc fabrics, such as are liberally used in weddings. Use an EX camera without a filter and you will have lots of unhappy shoots. There is a filter just released that is not yet in the retail channels that will correct the black problem, but it will not fit underneath a wide angle adapter. So if you want proper blacks all the time without buying a matte box and rails and a filter for the matte box to correct for the blacks, the XL-2 wins again.

It has already been mentioned that flashes from cameras will look bad on an EX camera. I seem to remember flashes going off at weddings all the time. There might be post production fixes for this, but it's extra work. That extra work won't earn you a dime.

The flash problem comes from a rolling shutter effect. This rolling shutter effect will also show up in fast pans and many unplanned shots, again common in wedding shots when trying to capture a moment in time. XL-2 wins again I think.

If I were to pick up wedding work, it would be an XL-H1a over an EX1 or EX3. That doesn't mean I would give up my EX3 though!

The EX3 is superior in image quality in ways other than those I have already mentioned. Is this image quality superiority more important than the EX3's problems I have mentioned? I think no. Go with the XL-H1a.

I believe the "black fabric problem" is caused by infared light affecting the sensor. So visible black is not always recorded as black b/c infared light is stimulating the sensor. I know the Red camera also has this problem.

There are a number of filter soultions for this, but none seem to be perfect, FWICT.

First time i've heard about the blacks issue. Will have to look into it.

I don't know why people make a big deal about the backup stuff. Sure you shoot on tape and digitise and there's a backup (tape) as well as the digital material. But after you've cut you ditch the digital copy right? So there's a DVD but one copy of the original footage.

If you shoot SxS and copy down the footage to a raided hard drive it's rock solid. Then backup to either hard drive or DVD/Bluray disks and there's your backup.

Tape stock is what....$10 or so ranging to $40 per hour-ish. Not a real cheap option for backup if you are keeping those tapes forever.

For a couple of hundred I can have 1 Terrabyte of raided backup or $30 for a huge spindel of DVD's. For the cost of 1 tape I can have 10 backups.

But I agree with another poster that if you've already got a tape workflow and a Canon then get another Canon for ease and consistency.

Perhaps I should have said "tape is its own archive" rather than backup. Optical media is a rather poor archiving media as far as its track record shows. RAID is OK, but it also is not as foolproof as tape IMHO.

Please keep in mind that I am an EX3 owner and love the work flow of the memory cards.

Hand me an EX3 and an XL-H1A to shoot a wedding and I will use the XL-H1A. No problems with black fabrics, almost foolproof storage, and no rolling shutter and flash problems. It just all adds up in favor of the XL-H1A for weddings.

Thank all of you, very informative information, it will help me make a decision easier.

One of the great advantages of tape for wedding is that most times we do two weddings or possibly three wedding on a weekends, so by the time we get home after a Sat wedding is 1:00AM Sunday, now to go to the computer and back up all of the 4 hours footage to hard drive (twice, to be sure for back up), and then go to the next wedding in a few hours time is very hard.

We have to store the tape or files for as long as it takes the bride and groom to get their act together and supply us with their music and all relevant information so we start the post productions, some couple take 3-4 years to come back to us with the relevant information.

With tape we just dump the tapes in the safe and forget about them until the couple decide that they want their video.

By the way is it me just imagining or no, Canon XL-H1 series are not as popular, I even noticed Cheaper Canons, XH ones more popular, is it just price factor or they are better than XL-H1?

I can get XL-H1a around $7500 and EX1 for $9500 including a small card, which one is better value for money.

Thank you
Mitchell

The XL-H1 is kind in no man's land for many people. The imaging block is the same as what's found on the XH-A1 and G1. And the A1 is less than half the price, and I believe has a slightly more advanced autofocusing system.

Most HDV 1/3 chip shooters don't need timecode, HD-SDI or think they need interchageable lenses, so they opt for the A1. The form factor is obviously different.

EX1 for sure. After using an XL-H1 a couple of times, and owning an XH-A1, I am EXTREMELY happy that I chose the EX1 as my workhorse. Incredibly superior to the XL-H1 and XH-A1 in my opinion.

Well, I am well confused now.

What bothers me is that Canon has got the technology to come up with such a good video in the DSLR cameras (5D MII) but they can not use that knowledge and technology in their pro video cameras. Wondering if they do deserve our support.

Cheers
Mitchell

they'll probably come out with something eventually, but by then the RED Scarlet will be out and it won't really matter LOL.

For now, EX1/EX3 takes the cake as far as I'm concerned!

Trevor:

Have you shot any weddings with your EX? If so, did you not have problems with black fabrics and camera flashes?

nope, i stay away from weddings, etc as far as film work goes - I only do that for the photography side of my business.

We shoot the EX1 on a redrock micro M2 Encore 35mm adapter for promos, shorts, and documentary work. I can't really comment on the black fabric thing - haven't really noticed any issues. I just know the EX1 is like 200 times more awesome to work with than the XH-A1 and XL-H1 haha

A little pic of my rig:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2606/3960180119_6dca872aa3_o.jpg


Enjoy!

Wow, what is that ugly alien?!!
;)

Do you think your EX1 is much better than XL-H1 even when you shoot with EX1 on 1440 and not full HD?

nope, i stay away from weddings, etc as far as film work goes - I only do that for the photography side of my business.

We shoot the EX1 on a redrock micro M2 Encore 35mm adapter for promos, shorts, and documentary work. I can't really comment on the black fabric thing - haven't really noticed any issues. I just know the EX1 is like 200 times more awesome to work with than the XH-A1 and XL-H1 haha

A little pic of my rig:
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2606/3960180119_6dca872aa3_o.jpg


Enjoy!

The EX1 certainly isn't 200 times more awesome :)

I enjoy my Canon XL H1s very much and I think the image really is quite nice out of it. I had the EX1, but ultimately stayed in the Canon line.

I guess to each is own...

just as an FYI - i wasn't saying that it's literally 200 times more awesome, i just said that it was 200 times more awesome to work with. I adapted to the use of the camera much quicker, and i feel that I have a lot more control over it than with the canon cameras - and that's coming from a die-hard pro canon still camera fanatic.

just sayin... :)

I've used both cameras extensively, even together on multi-cam shoots, XH-A1 and EX1.

The XH-A1 came out before the EX1 but it is still a really great camera, especially at 60i, where the native 1440x1080/60i is visually almost as detailed as the EX1 at 1920x1080/60i. It's very close, and arguably less noise from the 25mbps HDV than even the EX1 35mbps HQ, due to resolving a sensor with fewer photosites to manage. At 60i, they end up being very close to each other in resolving power, both around 800 lines.

At 24p, it's a different story, there the EX1 resolves better than 1000 lines, and the Canon gets out-matched. So depending on the intended frame rate, the XH-A1 or XL-H1 can nearly match the EX1 (for 60i), of lag significantly (for 24p).

I found the depth/breadth of control on the Canon very good, nearly as deep as the EX1, lacking only in adjustable knee, gamma, but still very good with color matrix controls, black and pedestal. The audio capability of the EX1 is much more comprehensive.

The most notable advantages of the more expensive EX1 is that it electronically eliminates color fringing, chromatic abberations which are a problem at some focal lengths for the Canon, and the low light is 3-4 stops more sensitive. On the other hand, you have to watch for the CMOS rolling shutter artifacts and jello-cam tendencies with the EX1.

But in general, the XL-H1 holds it's own very well, definitely capable of clean HDTV, and significantly better detail and resolving power than any of the Video DSLRs including the Canon 5DMkII that I also own, while losing out on the expected shallow depth of field and low light performance of the DSLR.

I shoot Weddings and own two XHA1's but also shoot with an EX1, I love my A1's but would go the EX1. Main reason is the low light capability of the EX1 is loads better and in a Church or reception that can make a shot.

If you want tape I would go with a Sony Z7 again it is better than the Canon in low light....

or if you can wait, Canon may finally pull there finger out and come out with an EX1 competitor but I wouldn't hold your breath!

Hi,

I do wedding video productions with my partner, we are used to XL1s, PC, Canopus and Premiere 1.5. We are changing to HD but after doing lots of research and investigation we got more confuse, which one to buy?

Canon XL-H1A or EX1?

Canon XL-H1A is 1440 x 1080i @ 25mbs HDV
Sony EX is up to 1920 x 1080 @ 35mbs HD
Go for the EX, far better cam all round, and the workflow is awesome.

Weddings are one off never to be able to be re-shot never can fail situations. In this case it is my humble opinion that tape still has it over solid state in that tape is its own backup. Capture the event on tape and then capture from the tape for editing and final production. Put that inexpensive tape on the shelf and know it is good for many years without issues. The same can't be said about solid state yet and archiving it is definitely not as easy, or it isn't as cheap.

I disagree. Solid state is much more reliable during the actual recording of the event. With solid state you don't have to worry about humidity issues (going from cold rainy outdoors into a warm indoor setting for example, or vice versa). Solid state doesn't have any mechanical parts to go wrong, so chewed tapes are a thing of the past. Further to that unlike tape which can have drop outs at the most inconvenient of times, solid state doesn't have this issue either.

If you really want tape to sit on the shelf (you shouldn't. Standard tape isn't an archive device) then if you recorded HDV to solid state you can then copy that footage back to HDV tape if you like. Or use a hybrid camera that records to both tape and solid state.

However, I am not sure why you say solid state can't be put on a shelf. It can, and in fact San Disk are working on SD cards that are said to be good for 100 years or so. Once the price on that type of memory comes down tape will be made totally redundant.

As for which camera to go for, it all depends on budget. Personally I would go for the EX. The picture quality is leaps and bounds ahead of the Canon, and you have a lot more versatility with the controls. With regard to the blacks issue, don't forget that the EX1R corrects issues such as that.

I believe the "black fabric problem" is caused by infared light affecting the sensor. So visible black is not always recorded as black b/c infared light is stimulating the sensor. I know the Red camera also has this problem.

There are a number of filter soultions for this, but none seem to be perfect, FWICT.

The RED One has a known issue with infrared light and there are filters and hot mirrors to deal with this.

In the case of the EX3 (as well as the F23 and F35) it's apparently the result of the sensor's broadband colour dyes reacting to far red light which our eyes can't see; the part of the red spectrum between infrared and what's in our visual range. Infrared light isn't a problem on the Sony cameras (or at least that's how I understood it). Tiffen have manufactured a filter that blocks far red light though.

The remedy for the far red contamination on the EX-1 and EX-3 hails in the form of a Tiffen T1 IR Filter. This makes the blacks much richer in certain fabrics apposed to the red mushy brown colour that once prevailed.

The EX1R as mention has fixed that problem.

As for solid-state media, I love it and its total reliable when using Pro SxS Memory Cards. The third party cards such as the MxR adaptor that take SDHC can occasional cause problems even though I haven’t found this to be myself.

If I was shooting weddings then I’d probably have a couple of EX1R or EX-3’s as I prefer the form factor.

I’ve not shot with the Canon so can’t comment about them. But I will say that I’m so glad I no longer need to think about tapes. Someone mentioned that solid state media is more expensive. I disagree as long term you make a cost saving.