Per DVX User hands on report, uncompressed analog output is only 1080i60 and 720p60. That indicates that no 1080p CCD mode exists and 1080p will be derived from 720p or 1080i. Can you elaborate, please.

At NAB and before in Europe there were some statements by Panasonic people that they'll have 1080p cameras in 2007, 2008, I think.

They also hinted D5 combined with MPEG4 to compete with CineAlta SR.

Can give us your take on these, please.

Radek

Answered here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?p=321028#post321028

I find it interesting that Radek keeps asking the same questions (as that was his post that you linked to Barry).

Radek, there may be a few people here who just spout information without any factual basis (though mercifully few, that's why this place rocks), but if Barry Green is the one giving you information, you can pretty much bank on it. And I get this feeling that if he were to be incorrect, he'd make sure that you not only knew it, but that you had the right information as well, as his concern seems to be that those that visit DVinfo, DVXuser, etc are informed and educatated, not duped and brainwashed.

Now, if we can avoid any comments about various acts of sycophantry, I'd like to say Barry's not alone. There is a huge amount of very talented and very knowledgable working professionals here that decide to share their gifts with us. Again, that's why this place rocks!

Thanks Chris for bringing so much knowledge and talent together in one place!

Brilliantly stated, Kevin, and much appreciated. Many thanks,

It's like Barry said in the other thread. 1080p on the new camera works just like 480p does on the DVX-100. The CCD'S are progressive but the stream is put into a 1080i or 480i stream with pulldown to go to tape or analog output. The DVX-100 cannot output real progressive frames so neither can the HVX-200. For both cameras you will have to take that interlaced stream and remove the pulldown to get your progressive frames. Or you could shoot 30p and even though the video will be in an interlaced stream it will not have any fields but true progressive frames so it will be the same as a progressive stream.

I read Barry's article. Lot of useful information. Thanks. I would like hear from Panasonic why uncompressed 1080p mode is missing, while uncompressed 1080i and 720p available. Unless Panasonic can provide confirmation that chipset itself, and with it ADC has this mode but Panasonic decided not to make available in uncompressed form, I must asume that 1080p is created from 1080i or 720p.

Radek

Well, you know what they say about assumptions...

As far as I'm concerned, I thought Barry pretty much explained that it worked like the SD cameras that have 24p and other progressive frame rates... they're still carried in an interlaced signal on the uncompressed analog outputs, so why shouldn't this camera be any different?

I don't think 1080p mode is missing. It is just inside of a 30i uncompressed output. I do not think it has anything to do with the type and quality of the analog outputs but more to do with how the HVX-200 creates 1080p video. Since 1080 mode seems to do exactly what the DVX-100 does there isn't really ever a 1080p video stream when output. All progressive frames are placed within a 30i stream. This is a restriction of the format on the camera and not so much the output.

The DVX-100 also does not have a true 24p analog or digital output but nobody says that the camera isn't a real progressive camera. The DVX-100 is a 24p camera but that 24p stream is in a 30i stream and pulldown must be removed to get your real 24p frames. The 1080 mode on the HVX-200 works exactly the same. At this point I do not know how the HVX-200 is going to get 1080 video but the output stream has in no way anything to do with the way 1080 is created. The CCDs could either be 960x720 with pixel shift to get 1280x1080 or they could naturally be 1920x1080 (or anything else between) but either way the 24p with 3:2 pulldown inside 30i output would still be the same. It is just an easy way to output video.

720p kind of works the same way. Any framerate you choose will still be ouput in a 60p stream with the extra frames padded. There is no 720i so there was no point in making the camera output a 720i stream. Most equipment you will watch or edit on however only looks at 720p as 60p so the extra frames need to be padded. 1080i is also kind of a padding but it uses fields instead of whole frames to pad.

Per DVX User hands on report, uncompressed analog output is only 1080i60 and 720p60. That indicates that no 1080p CCD mode exists and 1080p will be derived from 720p or 1080i. Can you elaborate, please.

They also hinted D5 combined with MPEG4 to compete with CineAlta SR.

Can give us your take on these, please.

Radek

The 1080P is enbedded in the 1080i output, just like the 24P on the DVX100 is embedded in a 60i stream.

At NAB and before in Europe there were some statements by Panasonic people that they'll have 1080p cameras in 2007, 2008, I think.

I don't remember this. I remember they mentioned a VariCam, don't remember if that was 2006 or 2007.

They also hinted D5 combined with MPEG4 to compete with CineAlta SR.
Can give us your take on these, please.


Well that is possible, but there was nothing specific. P2 is format agnostic so you can do what you want.

Hope that helped.

Best,

Jan

Jan another one. Any timeline on new info on the HVX200. Any new pictures, video? Panasonic got everyone all worked up and then stopped!!

Bob, I would imagine that they'll have more info and goodies for us at the Next Big Show, which is DV Expo East in July in NYC.

To go back to Radek's post, and hopefully put this whole issue to bed -- the JVC HD100 also cannot output 720/24p or 720/30p. The only type of output you get from that camera is 720/60p. So 720/30p and 720/24p are carried within a 60p data stream. 720/30p is output by doubling the frames, which results in a 60p signal. 720/30p is output by using a 2:3 frame cadence, where each odd frame is output twice, and each even frame is output three times, so every two frames are output as five frames, the result being 24 frames become 60. Yes, it's a 60p signal, but it still retains the look and feel of 24, and could easily be reconstituted as 24.

As others have adequately explained, the HVX will do the same, outputting 24 pure, raw progressive frames within a 60i data stream. That 60i data stream can easily be reconstituted to the original 24p frames in post, using the exact same methodologies we've been using with the DVX and XL2.

Thanks Chris

Sorry guys, but we talking apples and oranges. As far I know, right after CCD you have ADC. The reason is keep noise down. After ADC you tap the uncompressed analog. Fitting of progressive to interlaced tracks happens much later.

Altasens has chipset that is capable of outputting 720p and 1080i, but not 1080p. I don't say this is the Panasonic's case.

You claim I assume thing. On the contrary. The lack of 1080p uncompressed output and your claim that it not matter is you guys assuming things.

I'm not going rub this further. All I'm saying is there is lack of 1080p uncompressed and that Panasonic has not confirmed that chipset does have 1080p mode, that this mode is available in its uncompressed mode for camera processor.

The lack of this output and lack confirmation by panasonic that this mode exists, but Panasonic decided not to make available to user, does not make me change my mind as I see things.

Sorry but Panasonic must explain lack of 1080p uncompressed. Saying it gets layed down to intelaced stream is fine, but it happes later on in process, but how does camera create 1080p if no uncompressed 1080p exists?

Radek

You are assuming by going all over this forum and talking about this as if it is a fact. You are spreading rumors that nobody knows to be true at this point. All we are doing is thinking about what we know and telling you to slow down before going and saying "hey guess what there is no 1080p" You do not know that for a fact so you shouldn't make it seem like you know this for sure. You have even responded to other posts as if your claims are 100% accurate. If you would listen we are trying to tell you that any output in 1080 will have to be 1080i. That just makes it easier. Now with the way Panasonic does things if you shoot 24p you can output an uncompressed 1080i stream and once inside your system remove the pulldown to get 24p.

The thing is who really cares if the camera doesn't output 24p 1080p uncompressed? Yes there is an extra step with having to remove the 3:2 pulldown but in the end you still get a true 24p just like with the DVX-100.

The problem is you keep popping up all over the place trying to make a camera that isn't even out yet seem defective for not including something less than 1% of the users will use it for. Remember this camera was kick but even before we knew it was going to have 1080. 1080 is a huge bonus and add to that this is the only camera even close to this price range right now to give a true 1080 24p (after you remove pulldown)

Instead of saying hey guys here is some info to look at you made it seem like a huge news flash.

The funny thing about all of this is that you would rather believe a rumor than the knowledge of dozens of people trying to put together the facts.

I am not making assumptions or spreading rumors. I am telling what I see and I don't see 1080p uncompressed. Progressive gets written to interlaced tracks after compression. Why you assuming that new Panasonic camera would be different and Panasonic would do it hard way? And if really did this and 1080p uncompressed would be available, why they would leave it out from descreiption, or unit itself?

I wanted Panasonic to comment this. You are repeating same thing that not apply. Please check how cameras work before making assumptions and spreading rumors. Please don't accuse me of this. All I did was commented on what I saw and I asked Panasonic for clarification.

Radek

Barry, from what I've read, the new JVC will write 720x24p directly to tape, not convert to 60i. It does convert to interlace via the component outputs (including 1080i). Same goes for 25/30p mode. 60p to tape is only supported in NTSC/PAL SD resolution. According to the latest info at their web site.

Radek, you are going to have accept that there is no uncompressed 1080p output from this camera. If that is a problem, then go plunk down your 100K for a cinealta and another 100k for the equipment to handle uncompressed 1080p. Even if the camera output progressive 1080p it would still have an approx 3 to 1 compression ratio.

If you have a compatible NLE you can convert the source back to 1080x24p (but still compressed) during capture. Since most of us would have to capture the video anyway that is not a problem. And there is no live 1080p broadcast as of today.
Thats it, nothing else to say. NO 1080P UMCOMPRESSED OUT from a sub 20K camera anywhere (excluding the folks doing the custom imaging over in Alternate Imaging).

btw, my HP notebook is ready to accept those P2 cards if I ever need to.

We are not spreading rumors but are trying to tell you what we know so far. If you would listen you would see we are trying to tell you tht no there is no 1080p uncompressed output but who cares? You can still get 24p from the 1080i output.

Do you consider the DVX-100 a 480p camera? You have never answered this. I am not spreading rumors but trying to explain that based on what we know so far we are sure it works like the DVX-100. That is all we have said is to give facts.

The problem at least that I had with this whole thing starting is that you were making the assumption that since there wasn't real 1080p uncompressed output that meant the chips were making a fake 1080 video that was scaled up or interpolated from 720p video. At the start I was trying to explain that the lack of 1080p didn't mean that at all. Yes the 1080p vieo from the HVX-200 could be interpolated but I do not think the form of uncompressed output would reflect this in any way.

All along we have been saying that yes there is no 1080p uncompressed ouput because it doesn't need it. By us saying the 1080p stream is inside a 1080p stream is saying that there is no 1080p output. That however doesn't mean you cannot get true 24p frames from this however.

I know how the ouput system and camera works on the DVX-100 and if the HVX-200 works the same way for 1080p then that should settle this issue.

How do you know how the camera works? Do you have one? You seem to be the only current expert on the HVX-200.

You read one article somewhere and are now assuming the camera doesn't even make a real 1080 video but fakes one. I am not saying it does or doesn't but at this point you know as much as the rest of us. The thing is you could have a chip block with 1920x1080 progressive pixels and still have a camera that outputs 1080i only or you could have a block with 960x720 pixels that gets muxed up to simulate a 1080p video and still ouput on the same 1080i or pump that out some high end 1080p output. The method of either having 1080i or 1080p output doesn't really reflect what the chips or camera are doing.

I am not debating if the HVX-200 does or does not have uncompressed 1080p output but trying to explain that I know it doesn't but it doesn't really need to because it works like the DVX-100. You seem to ignore the comparison of the DVX-100.

I know the output is 1080i but I also know that in post I can get true 24p frames from this which is a lot more than any other camera in this price range will do.

Didn't Jan already respond on this?