Chris,

Isn't it time to tuck this whole "Panasonic AG-HVX200 DVCPro HD/P2 Camcorder" forum under the HD section?

It's just another HD cam. You don't have the Sony or JVC cams at the top of the Community home page. Shouldn't this cam's forum be placed in the HD sub-forum. Whether it's HDV or ProHD, it's HD related and should be grouped together to avoid cluttering the top page. And as of right now, its only vaporware.

Besides, by virtue of location, it appears you're giving very preferential treatment to this cam over all others.

Good idea, in my opinion. They are all 1/3" chip HD "prosumer" type cameras, whether they record to HDV or to DCVPRO HD. Maybe they could all be lumped together and called something like Affordable HD, or HD for the Masses--oops, nope, 2-pop has that one. Somebody needs to come up with a word better than "prosumer," which is really a disgusting non-word.

How about Cheapro? Or, AffordablePro. Or, BargainPro? Or, Blue Light Special Pro?

Chris,

Isn't it time to tuck this whole "Panasonic AG-HVX200 DVCPro HD/P2 Camcorder" forum under the HD section?

It's just another HD cam. You don't have the Sony or JVC cams at the top of the Community home page. Shouldn't this cam's forum be placed in the HD sub-forum. Whether it's HDV or ProHD, it's HD related and should be grouped together to avoid cluttering the top page. And as of right now, its only vaporware.

Besides, by virtue of location, it appears you're giving very preferential treatment to this cam over all others.

Vaporware! That hurts,,,,but true I guess. No one has ever seen a working one yet. It's not my board but it should go in the HD section. When all the hype was going it was easy to find, but now there is nothing new.

Sounds like a good camera, but I think it was a bad marketing plan.

Bob, I think it'll be a great cam that will meet the needs of a good number of folks. I think it and the JVC HD cam will start to stratify the lower end of the 'pro' ranks. And I have no doubt that Panny will come through, its not like it'll be vaporware forever, but its not like it'll be here tomorrow either.

Bill, the word 'prosumer' is so embedded in this field that I think we'll not see it replaced soon, especially by some of the really bad replacements Guy recommended. Sorry Guy. ;)

And as of right now, its only vaporware.

......

Sounds like a good camera, but I think it was a bad marketing plan.



It's still way too early to call this camera 'vaporware,' and in my opinion it's entirely unfair and premature. What makes it vaporware? The fact that it's not released yet?

The term vaporware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaporware) refers to a product which is announced, given a release date, and then fails to be released as promised.

As of right now, this camera is following the same exact release and marketing path that the DVX did. Panasonic made the announcement, showed off a mockup, and gave a release date. So far they have stuck by everything they've said. If the fourth quarter of this year comes and goes with no HVX release, then you can call it vaporware. But as of right now, there is no reason to believe the camera will not be released as planned.

It may be a long wait, but that doesn't mean it isn't going to happen, and defintely does not make it vaporware.

It's still way too early to call this camera 'vaporware,' and in my opinion it's entirely unfair and premature.

Luis,
I'll agree that 'vaporware' was a little harsh and the marketing release of this camera does not constitute the narrow definition of 'vaporware'. I retract that term as I firmly believe that Panny will release the cam on or very near the scheduled date. And I wish I had an extra 10k laying around about then.

But...even if its not vaporware, it is just another High Definition acquisition camcorder. So why does it deserve to remain 'above the fold' while all the other equipment is nested two levels deeper? That's all I'm asking? Heck, the XL2 didn't even stay broken out for this long and we know Chris has been known to shoot a Canon (pun intended).

Chris,

Isn't it time to tuck this whole "Panasonic AG-HVX200 DVCPro HD/P2 Camcorder" forum under the HD section?...

I agree... too much hype, too soon. ;-)

--Ralph

As of right now there is no "HD" section, there is the HDV section, but this camera doesn't shoot HDV. I assume this is why Chris hasn't moved the forum yet. Eventually it will find a home as he reorganizes things I would guess.

Why the hurry to move it anyhow?

...
Bill, the word 'prosumer' is so embedded in this field that I think we'll not see it replaced soon, especially by some of the really bad replacements Guy recommended. Sorry Guy. ;)...


The term "prosumer" assumes that in some way this camera is aimed at, or marketed to, the hobbyist or consumer.

The HVX, Z1, and HD100 are Professional cameras; designed for and marketed to working pros. They are in a price range that would preclude almost all DV consumers from buying one.

Well, the reason it's up here at the top is because it's a forum without a home.

It will *not* be thrown into the HDV category... if I did that, nobody at Panasonic would ever speak to me again. P2 is not HDV. DVCPRO HD is not HDV. And so on.

There will be some sort of reorganization of categories coming up pretty soon. One option is to throw all of the HD format boards in some sort of general HD category, but the term "prosumer" most definitely will not be part of the description.

For now you guys are going to have to live with its current location, but it will indeed move once we can figure out the best to reorganize and order the forum categories. Thanks a bunch,

Chris,
Besides, by virtue of location, it appears you're giving very preferential treatment to this cam over all others.

I would like to think he is! hehehe! From the sounds of it, this is NOT just another HD camera. This camera will be in very great demand. I would expect it to sell out even faster than the Z1 did. I would have bought a Z1 if Sony made it like the HVX.
HDV is and was designed as a "consumer" format. An expensive consumer product that is just good enough for professionals to get away with is considered "PROsumer", but I like Guy's suggestion of "Cheapro" better.

And considering I can't find an HD TV for under $1000.00, these Cheapro cameras ARE well within the price range of almost any consumer in the HD market.

Think about it, compare the price of a standard-def high end consumer camera, like the VX2000, vs a standard-def TV. Now do the same for HD-TV's and where would that leave the price range for a high end consumer or low end Professional HD video camera? I have a $400 TV (Sony WEGA) and a $4000 camera (the PD-170, the lowest end PRO camera, sorry the VX is considered a consumer camera even by Sony) so if I were to move to HD it would be safe to assume that if my TV cost (at least) $1000 my camera would cost $10K (like Panasonic's lowest end PRO camera, the HVX200)

But my biggest worry is what's going to happen when nobody uses DV anymore? Can we still come here and visit?

It will *not* be thrown into the HDV category... if I did that, nobody at Panasonic would ever speak to me again. P2 is not HDV. DVCPRO HD is not HDV. And so on.

For now you guys are going to have to live with its current location, but it will indeed move once we can figure out the best to reorganize and order the forum categories. Thanks a bunch,

OK, fine! Can't let Chris get into hot water, he gets good scoop from some of these folks, and we all like to hear the 'latest and greatest' from reliable sources. Thanks for considering it...case closed...so Chris, tell us what the Panny reps said about their format being compared to HDV...

Think about it, compare the price of a standard-def high end consumer camera, like the VX2000, vs a standard-def TV. Now do the same for HD-TV's and where would that leave the price range for a high end consumer or low end Professional HD video camera? I have a $400 TV (Sony WEGA) and a $4000 camera (the PD-170, the lowest end PRO camera, sorry the VX is considered a consumer camera even by Sony) so if I were to move to HD it would be safe to assume that if my TV cost (at least) $1000 my camera would cost $10K (like Panasonic's lowest end PRO camera, the HVX200)

I'm just picking nits here, so don't take this the wrong way, but a PD-170 is no longer a $4K camera.

Anyway, I agree though. The pricing of the HVX200, even including a couple 8GB P2 cards at the full extortionist MSRP price, is still not out of line if it delivers what Panny claims it will. And yes, it puts this camera right in line with the "prosumer" market segment that buys high-end HD/home theatre gear.

I think calling the HVX200 a "prosumer" camcorder goes against Panny's marketing approach and it rubs a lot of pro video guys (who are trying to find ways to justify/afford it) the wrong way... But I think that when the dust settles and all the HVX200 purchases are tabulated (if that were possible), then that is exactly what this camcorder will be. There's a lot of "prosumer" types buying the DVX100, FX1 and even the Z1 because they're into expensive gadgets with more capabilities than the typical consumer palmcorder crap. You can bet that there will be a measurable percentage buying the HVX200 with a few P2 cards because they want a camcorder that shines on their new 60"+ HDTV and HDV doesn't appeal to them. I know several guys interested in the HVX200 because of the solid state recording alone and a few of them only do video (of any kind) as a hobby. On the other hand, I think it's really cool that someone can use a $3~$6K camcorder to earn a living as many people here do.

Well, let's just say that Panasonic doesn't appreciate comparisons with HDV.

Patrick is right though, this board needs to be moved, and it will be once we get things better organized around here.

Maybe you could categorize it into all the 1/3" chip cameras that record to a format with better resolution than DV. I bet the Germans have one of those long words beginning with weltan... that would cover that. I know that nobody likes the word "prosumer." I hate it myself. But, all these cameras are different from the traditional professional cameras, regardless of the format they use.

Not that I care, but the solution seems fairly simple to me.

I'd just rename the High Definition HDV: The Next Wave as something like Affordable High Definition: The Next Wave and then simply have the HDV Acquisition Equipment become the Affordable HD Acquisition Equipment and the HDV Editing Solutions can become simply Affordable HD Editing Solutions. Throw the Panny forum under the newly christened Affordable HD Acquisition Equipment heading and call it a day.

That should keep Panny happy and all the people who seem to want it moved so bad...

But what do I know right?

Hey--good one: Affordable High Def. That encompasses it all. HDV is one, DVCPRO HD is another, editing another, etc. I like it.
Not, as you say, that it really matters, but it's spring and rendering times are long and everybody needs something to talk about.

"Prosumer" or "Cheapro" or whatever you call it, the HVX200 is one of those products that blurs the definition between a professional-only product and one the consumer can afford. Yes, only affluent consumers can afford this camcorder, but, there will be many that will buy it. The HDV cams have paved the way for a higher quality codec like DVCPROHD. I believe that HDV will eventually make its way into true "consumer" products and DVCPROHD will drift down into the "prosumer" category. BTW, Chris, I don't care where you put it. :-)

But my biggest worry is what's going to happen when nobody uses DV anymore? Can we still come here and visit?

Well, I honestly dont think thats going to happen for a long time, if ever....
What would be next, short of developing as a race to the point that we can project our thoughts as movies and no longer need cameras and editing systems and delivery. DV simply means Digital Video. Don't forget that there is a distinction between DV and miniDV. One is a specific format, and the other is a basic descriptive for the general technology. For instance, all VHS is analog, but not all analog is VHS. So, now that not many people are using VHS any more, that only speaks for a relatively small portion of general analog use. I'm of course picking a nit too, and it's not really directed at you, Rhett, just a general statement for the purpose of a wee bit of conversational input, and something of a subtle suggestion to Chris to never change the name of DVinfo.net, as there is really no need......digital 8, miniDV, HDV, HD, UHD, BTSUDWHD*, its all DV. Or am I wrong?

*Big Time Super Ultra Dooley Whopper High Definition.....projected future format...

*Big Time Super Ultra Dooley Whopper High Definition.....projected future format...

Woo Hoo I made the new format name!!!

Woo Hoo I made the new format name!!!

ha-ha-ha-ha! I like the new name! Does it use 6 chips instead of 3? 3 for color and 3 for spatial differentiation (as in 3D)? I want one of those!

You are correct Daniel, I guess it's all "DV" when you get down to it. I'm going to go register the domain "bigtimesuperultradooleywhopperhighdefinition.net" now, just in case, so we can have a forum in the future! :) just be sure to bookmark it because it's not so easy to type repeatedly;)

I'm going to go register the domain "bigtimesuperultradooleywhopperhighdefinition.net" now, just in case, so we can have a forum in the future! :)

Dont forget to stick "info" on the end of it, Rhett! Hope you havent already wasted the reg fee!

BTW, that whole thing (BTSUDWHD) should be said w/ the voice of Jerry Clower. If you don't know who he is......you're a Yankee. And if you dont know who he was, yet you were born in The South.....your parents probably weren't! Tell me if I'm wrong or right......

Yee Ha, guys. I be done gotta told ya 5-4 times, I think we gotta reign this thing in. Silliness aside, this cam isn't going to be real until late this year. Maybe it is time to give the hype a rest.

Actually, BTSUDWHD exists! it's called UHDV (Ultra High-(Definition)Vision) and developed by NHK for something like Digital IMAX at about 33 megapixels @ 60p!

Below is the Wikipedia article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UHDV

Well, let's just say that Panasonic doesn't appreciate comparisons with HDV.
Sure they do -- as long as the HVX comes out on top!