It's been a little while since we discussed this.

I'm just about at the stage where I'm making dups of my video.
I've decided (thanks to members of this forum) to use a miniDV deck as the player deck (instead of SVHS) and print to VHS decks.
I plan to have 5 VHS decks for now, maybe 10 later. Now, I have NO experience or real knowledge of duplicating, so I'd appreciate it if anyone could feed me the basics. Is it as simple as hooking player deck, through dup amp, to recording decks, putting in tapes and pushing play and record?

I also need to buy a video/duplication amplifier (and the VHS decks). Is there anywhere I might look for one localy, like Radio Shack? Where would I look in the yellow pages?

Thanks people!

Hey Dylan, you should probably avoid the Radio Shack stuff. Too much money for too little quality. Try either Elite Video or Studio One for distribution amps with much greater bang for buck.

http://www.elitevideo.com/product.asp?0=209&1=219&3=24
http://www.studio1productions.com/da12.htm

See also:

http://www.studio1productions.com/Articles/DupSystem.htm

I wasn't even sure that Radio Shack would carry them.
That first unit looks great, but it may be too much for my budget. I'll have to check and see.

A few more duplication questions:

Do all similar brand name VCRs (4-head, hi-fi, stereo) produce the same recording quality?

I can buy a miniDV camcorder as a playing deck, or I can buy a DVD-burner for my computer and burn a master copy on DVD, which will then let me use my much cheaper DVD player as a playing deck for the duplication system. Which do you guys think would be better?

Y'mean you don't already have a mini-DV camcorder?
:-)
I have used both methods. The mini DV has the advantage of not having to wait for a DVD to process (typically 4 hours for every hour of video). I just go straight from Final Cut Pro and tell it "Print to Video" so it will record thru the Firewire to my mini DV camcorder. For a bonus, if you have your A/V cables hooked up from the camcorder to the D/A, you can make your first batch of dubs on the fly while the digital master is being recorded.
For a D/A I just use a humble little Cable Electronics Model 700 (7 outputs) but that Elite Video unit has a nice feature: S-Video input...(and Elite Video are a nice bunch of people to do biz with)

Do XL1's count as miniDV? :)
j/k
I'd prefer not to use an XL1 as a duplication deck. I know it will probably last thousands of hours, but still, I'd prefer not to eat those hours up making copies. It looks for this job that I will be using it though. I'm going to save the $800 on a cheap miniDV camera and put the 15 hours (x5 VHS tapes per hour) on the XL1, just so I can get some money coming back in. After that, I will see about getting a miniDV deck, or do the DVD burner thing.


About VCRs though, do all the major brand name consummer VCRs produce the same quality recorded picture?
Do 19micron heads make a picture difference over a regular 4head VCR?
Do any VCRs have a feature that can be used to keep the screen from going blue when there is a weaker signal? I hear this is a good feature for duplication.
Thanks

You know Dylan, Super VHS VCR's aren't all that expensive these days. If I were in your position, I'd buy about four inexpensive Super VHS decks and make my dupes that way. An S-VHS deck spits out a much nicer VHS copy than a regular VHS deck will.

I was looking at VCRs today. $120cdn for a 4 head hifi stereo name brand deck (Toshiba, Hitatchi, Sony). S-VHS deck (forget the brand) $180. Pretty similar. I think I'll get one and compare it to my regular VCR. I'll let you know how it works out!

Dylan,

Something you might want to check out is the Kramer VS-4X4YC Vertical Interval Switcher. I use one of these with four JVC SVHS decks and it makes for a very versatile arrangement. The Kramer box is a 4X4 Matrix switch which allows any input to be routed to any or all outputs. All inputs and outputs are Y/C and Composite plus stereo audio. It does not do Y/C->Composite conversion.

Most of my work right now is VHS, so by connecting my NLE to one input, I can make four copies at once directly from the computer and then use one of those as a master and make three at a time while editing other projects.

http://www.kramerelectronics.com/group2/vs4x4ycpic.html

I bought mine from BTX.com for $412. Their website doesn't have a very good description although the printed catalog is better. The BTX product number is VP-MS44YC. About the only other dealer I found was Markertek, but they want over $100 more.

Ed, that's a nice piece of equipment. However, I think in the future I'm (hopefully) going to need something that runs a lot more decks. That only outputs 4 at a time, correct?

It's a 4 X 4 matrix switcher (router). It does not necessarily have a DA built in, most don't. It gives you the ability of sending multiple sources to multiple destination within the matrix, simultaneously.

Jeff

Most VCR's also output (mirror) the signals they get for recording. My experience is that these output signals (often used for monitoring) are an (alfmost) perfect copy of the input signals (bandwidth, noise, chroma...) and certainly more than good enough for 4 "feed throughs" if only VHS quality is needed. So just chainlink the vcr's a wait for buying distribution amps. B.t.w. Video matrixes are of no uses for copying work and thus a complete waste of money.

<<B.t.w. Video matrixes are of no uses for copying work and thus a complete waste of money.>>

For mass duplication operations, you may be correct dre..., but it has been quite valuable to me. It has eliminated a bunch of cable swapping that I had to do before, depending on what I was copying, and by connecting one output to my monitor, I can monitor any of the four inputs by pushing a button. Product literature also states that one application could be as a 1X4 DA or two 1X2 DAs, so I'm assuming that this particular unit does have DAs built in, but I might be wrong about that. Your statement that it is a complete waste of money is not true in my case.

Dylan, this model does only have four outputs, but if you believe dre..., you could daisy chain 4 units on each channel and still have some flexibility to make copies of more than one master tape at a time. I currently daisy chain two of my decks on one channel and agree that there is no noticable difference in the copies, but I haven't tried more than two.

Agree Ed. It's the way to go if you have multiple sources to switch. Although I used to design routers, (and my company still sells them for ATC applics) I don't know of cheaper ones but the VI switching certainly boosts the price. It's only usefull if you want to use it for live switching in a genlocked environment. I also read that you use a copy as a master. I would not advise to do so. Not only the lower quality, but the timebase instabilities deteriorate the quality, unless you add a TBC.

A router certainly has a place in duplication facilities. It allows the sourcing from many different VCR's without the hassle of rewiring every time you want to make a dupe. One of the outputs is generally to a DA or series of DAs depending on the number of VCRs. Daisy chaining the VHS VCR's is not recommended for the best quality (do you want this client to come back to you or is this a one time deal?).

Since you're sourcing from mini DV a TBC is not necessary. If you source from analog a TBC is highly recommended to maintain signal quality.

Jeff

Jeff, I first advise you to reread ED's post from oct 24, then you will understand why a he needs a TBC. Secondly, VHS never exceeds bandwidths beyond 3Mhz. Active feedthroughs in VCR's have bandwidths exceeding 10Mhz (in Y and C channels). So daisy chaining is OK and I hope Ed will one day try it ( hopefully before he waste his money with a distribution amplifier) and report to this forum. And of course a duplication facility needs apart from several types of source machines, TBC's...also routers (without VI switching).

Dre,

My previous post wasn't directly pointed to Ed but rather Dylan. In his post that started this thread he point out that he is using a mini DV deck for sourcing his dupes. Mini DV does not require a TBC.

The problem with looping through signals with consumer VCRs is not the bandwidth, but the other improvements done to the signal. The HQ spec calls for at least 4 different signal modifications (improvements?), edge detail, noise reduction etc. It is the repeated implementation of the HQ spec that degrades the signal. Signal lose is usually minimal if proper cables are used.

Jeff

Since I didn't really conclude the above post, the bottom line is don't loop signals through consumer VHS decks. The signal degradation caused by the implementation of the HQ spec is measurable with a waveform monitor/vector scope and visually noticeable.

Jeff

As you maybe know, "HQ" for vcr's is for 99% an invention of smart marketing people, on the same level as the "AI based noise reduction", or "fuzzy logic based tape mechanism"... On a wavefrom monitor there will be no differences.

There are seven different specifications of improvement in the HQ designation. In order for a manufacture to display the HQ mark, four of the seven must be included. Doing this from memory the improvements are detail enhancement, 20% boost of white clip level, dynamic picture enhancement, luminance noise reduction, CCD chrominance, CCD luminance and one I can't remember.

The HQ spec is not some marketing hype. It was developed by Yves Faroudja. He was presented the Lifetime Achievement Award by the Academy of Television Arts and Science. I believe he holds patients on all the HQ circuits.

You do not see the HQ designation on professional duplicators (VTRs). The looping through of the signal would degrade the signal quality. It is a consumer implementation that improves picture quality. But repeated application of the improvements by looping the signal degrades the image noticeably. But it is a cumulative effect, you may not have noticed the lower quality in just one generation. But it is there, and looping just degrades the signal each machine.

Jeff

"HQ" is commercial stuff, indeed first licenced as a package deal to JVC beginning 1970. The reason why only seven "improvements" are involved is because these where the only fantasies they could sell to the consumer world at that time...Even if clip levels where taken somewhat higher (risky but alowable thanks to better tapes), even if they could sell some noise reduction tales, even if he packaged some primitive non linear sharpening techniques, it could never attract pro people, and moreover all this "optimisations" do not mean that there is a need for more bandwidth, better linearity... in feedtrough circuits. In this respect, the "HQ" label has no reflevance w.r.t. daisychaining vcr's. Faroudja's Awards (55 patents) relate to much more fundamental an professional video processing techniques.

I have a feeling we're discussing differences in NTSC and PAL. Faroudja was asked (circa 1984) by JVC (inventor of the VHS format) to come up with improvements that would counter the improvements Sony made to Beta, known as SuperBeta. Farjouda agreed and came up with improvements that include Chroma Noise Reduction, Luminance Noise Reduction, Detail Enhancer, White Clip Enhancer, Dynamic Picture Enhancement and others.

The four primary enhancements are required and specified in the S-VHS designation. Many of the JVC Professional S-VHS VTR's contain all 7 enhancements. If you look on the back of any VHS deck with the HQ and ALL S-VHS decks you'll see a sticker acknowledging the License from Faroudja. I don't think these companies pay millions of dollars in licensing fees for circuitry that doesn't work.

Many VHS HQ decks and ALL S-VHS decks have switches that disable certain HQ circuits if you are editing (copying). Directions for doing so are contained in their instruction manuals. If in doubt read any S-VHS manual about Edit Switches. They turn the circuits on for improved playback to a monitor, but are turned off when copying the signal. Very plain and simple and contained in the manuals.

They are active enhancements applied to the signal. They work or else JVC, Panasonic, Sony and others wouldn't pay millions for the license to use them. Looping through of signals that have the HQ enhancements applied will degrade the signal. If it didn't, why are there switches to turn off the enhancements when editing? Why are companies spending millions on licensing and building VCR's (both pro and consumer) with switches that do nothing?

I was President of a large production and post production company in Cincinnati, Ohio from 1985 thru 1996. One of the divisions of the company did video tape duplication (third largest in the city, over 100 duplicators). I've tested duplication systems based on consumer decks, looping through a common video signal. The source was time base corrected with a Nova 920 TBC. The source deck was a Panasonic AG-7500A. The duplication machines were Sharp consumer VHS decks. Belden 75 ohm cable with Canniare connectors. The output of the 10th deck was connected to a Leader 5870 Waveform Monitor/Vectorscope. The test were performed by my staff broadcast engineer. The conclusion was the looping of the signal was degraded by the consumer VHS decks. The loss of quality was measurable on the Leader 5870. The visual difference from the 1st tape to the 10th was very noticeable and would not have passed any reasonable quality control standards. Now maybe there was increased sunspot activity that day that degraded the signals and the loss of quality had nothing to do with HQ circuitry. But I do know that looping the signal in consumer decks degrades the quality below my standards. I wouldn't give such tapes to any of my clients. But maybe my standards are higher than yours.

Jeff

I would like to know your standards, not in fuzzy terms like "degrades..". Try to do do it like pro's do it for buffer amps, in terms of bandwidths, transient properties, S/N, diff amp and diff phase... I am not used (not able) to discuss non artistic matters in artistic terms. On the Faroudja story...I know this man and met him several times starting when is was still with ITT(Oceanic 1970) in Paris and later on as an SMPTE member when he moved to Sunnyvale. Unless you want to teach the forum about his inventions, but I don't need further info which is irelevant to the basic question. I know very well what he did and is still doing, and even today we have professional contacts as a licensee for a number of his patents (pro line doublers...). F.Y.I the way looptrough properties are measured is not by using a VCR as source signal generator...just inform your staff broadcast engineer.

Dre....

I think you need to understand that the vast majority of the members and guests here are not engineers. They are men and women working in small studios, production companies, students and independents. Many of them own their own business and as such owe everything (house, car, wife, dog etc) to the bank. The majority do not work in a broadcast environment. They are not engineers and many have no formal training in video production or post production. Their world (the one that puts food on the table) is a subjective one. It's not a world of signal to noise ratio, bandwidth, or even 75 ohm termination.

The majority of the tape dupes go to brides, brides mother, art directors and other creative types. Their world is subjective also. If they have a complaint, it's described in very subjective terminology. I've never heard a bride or art director complain about the signal to noise ratio. But they will tell you the video looks fuzzy, heavy, thick, noisy, grainy, light, dark, washed out etc. But never have I heard, Can you boost the signal to noise ratio? or Do you think the termination is set wrong?

My standards, when I post to the threads here are for the large part, subjective. Why? The majority of the community here doesn't own a waveform monitor/vectorscope (non-software) or know how to really read one. Writing in terms that aren't understood is useless. The men and women come here looking for answers in everyday, real world terms. Just like what their clients and customers use. It's not 100% accurate and no one is claiming it is.

My posts are meant to help the community by relaying my real world experiences. My motivation is to help them become better directors, lighting and sound technicians, photographers, editors and business people. My posts reflect the real world experiences I've had in over 20 years in this industry. I live in a subjective world and many of my experiences are subjective.

So, when I tell Ed, Dylan and the others not to loop the signal through on consumer VHS decks it's based on real world experiences. Just the way they make dupes. Not with a signal generator, but a source deck playing a tape and looping the outputs. It's not pure science, nor is it meant to be. That's not our audience.

Our audience for the largest part is not broadcast. It's men and women working day to day, in an industry they love, putting food on the table for their families. Few, if any can afford to loose clients. My advice is meant to minimize the likelihood of that happening. I know from real world, subjective, experience that looping the signal will produce poor quality tapes that their clients will probably complain about. They can avoid this by using a DA. Yes, the DA will cost some money. But not as much as losing a client from poor quality tape duplication.

F.Y.I. I'm the one that told my engineer how I wanted the tests run. Because I wanted to be able to look the client (who commissioned us to build his duplication system) in the eye and tell him his VHS dupes were going to look just fine.

Jeff

Jeff and dre...., I've been following your discussion with much interest and appreciate the comments you have both made. Since I'm a member of the group Jeff described in his last post, this may be a dumb question, but I'm a little confused.

Jeff, where in the machine is the HQ Spec implemented? If I understand what you have said, these circuits can be disabled on SVHS consumer machines. With HQ off, is the feed through signal not affected by this circuitry and consequently not degraded (at least for that reason). Your argument seems to be that the HQ Spec is the culprit, so turning it off should solve that problem.

My JVC manual describes three settings that I'm assuming are the ones you are talking about:

Picture Control (Auto, Edit, Soft or Sharp) - Adjusts playback picture quality

Digital R3 (On or Off) - Edge correction to luminance signal is performed

Video Stabilizer (On or Off) - Automacically correct vertical vibrations in picture during playback

These decks also have a Digital TBC/NR switch. Is that also part of the HQ Spec?

When making copies from my NLE, I use the following settings:

Picture Control - Edit
Digital R3 - Off
Video Stabilizer - Off
Digital TBC/NR - On

Are these settings giving me the best results, given the limitations of consumer grade equipment?

Are you using your NLE as the source and then recording and looping your signal through JVC S-VHS decks? How many decks is the signal looped through? It looks like the settings are correct for duping the signal. My concerns are the TBC. Since there is no time base error to correct it is not needed. The noise reduction (if it's active) my have a determental cumulative effect. The first copy or two in the chain may look fine. Copies at the end of the chain by show visual abnormalities. The other possible problem is if the TBC contains a Proc Amp to adjust the color (phase). If someone accidently adjust the Proc Amp on deck 1 the color changes will cascade through the chain.

Jeff

Ed,
If you have playback (source) from NLE or DV VCR, or an analog source VCR containing a TBC (never active in record mode!), or playback through a digital mixer or whatever digital interface, there is no need for TBC. Altough there is no need for the timebase compensation part of a TBC, in the above situations, you can of course still put a dedicated TBC unit between yr source player and the recording part (like I do) because a TBC can also correct color shortcommings, match Y/C delays, H-phase, sharpen/unsharp...sometimes interesting, depending on the source material properties/quality. On the setting problem, keep in mind that not a single setting of your recording VCR's has any influence on the properties of the feedthrough signals. So whatever recording VCR setting you apply (TBC,NR,sharpen...) what gets in, gets out, unaffected by yr settings. Only the recorded signals from the individual VCR get the settings.

Jeff, I use the Matrox RT2500 card which allows for analog in/out. Using all S-VHS connections and quality cables, the Kramer matrix switch mentioned in an earlier post is currently configured as follows:

---IN ------- Matrix ------ OUT

NLE-----> Port #1--> VCR #3--> VCR #4--> Switch Port #4
VCR#1--> Port #2--> VCR #1--> Switch Port #2
VCR#2--> Port #3--> VCR #2--> Switch Port #3
VCR#4--> Port #4--> Monitor(TV)

The only units that are daisy chained are VCR #3 & 4.

Most of the projects that I'm currently working on are finished within a week and most copies (always VHS) are made directly from the Premiere timeline (four at a time) while the files are still on a removable hard drive. I also make one S-VHS master of the edited project that is used to fill additional orders after the files are removed from the system. The reason I don't put the edited master back on MiniDV is because the projects are usually close to two hours in length. I retain the original unedited DV tapes and Premiere project files.

While all copies made directly from the timeline seem identical, even the one from VCR #4, there *is* a noticable difference in those made from the S-VHS master, although I've yet to hear a complaint. Most of my customers drive race cars which might explain a lot.

Since my source is analog (S-VHS from NLE breakout box), is the TBC switch doing anything or should I turn it off?

Ed,

You can turn the TBC's off it really doesn't matter. The daisy chaining of just two VCRs is not a big deal either. I've started to see the image quality decrease when you get 4 or more chained together.

Jeff

If an analog player (yr S VHS) is used as a source you need a TBC, like I wrote in an earlier post (oct 24) to you. So it must be set *on* on yr VCR. Two remarks:
TBC's incorporated in consumer VCR's have limited TBC performance( no field memories). They are good enough for TV playback or monitor playback if set for "fast sync" but sometimes still introduce remaining timebase unstabilities on further recordings.
Even if S-VHS has good horizontal luma resolution (not as good as DV), the chroma processing and resolution for S-VHS is the same as in VHS and about only 30% of what you get out of yr NLE. Extra noise and reduced chroma resolution (color leakage) is what deteriorates the signal.

Thanks Guys,

I really appreciate all the info. I'll turn the TBC switch off unless the deck is being used as a source.

Getting back to the original post, I'll let you guys know how it worked out.
I decided, since I'm not making enough on this project to warrent spending more on duplication, just to buy 3 VCRs (+ my existing one) and hook them up in series to record from my XL1 and hope for decent quality. I happened to be at Radio Shack buying a S-Video adapter and I asked about what they had in the way of duplication amps, keeping in mind what Chris Hurd said about them. The salesperson showed me a 4 output one for only $60cdn/$40us. Well, I though, it certainly can't hurt, and if it does I can take it back, and everyone on the DVinfo forum will certainly want to know how it worked, so it's worth the experiment.
So I brought it home and hooked it up. It seemed to work as I expected, producing mediocre quality results. Then I started to notice wavy red/blue lines across the screen. Then as the video moved into a darker/grainier scene, they went far beyond mediocre into awful. So I unhooked it all, and set it back up with only the VCRs linked in series. Results? Much better. Maybe not perfect, but definitely sellable quality. I'm not sure how this would vary with more than 4 VCRs, so take it for what it's worth.

Radio Shack is not a source for professional audio or video equipment. Sources for professional distribution amps are Panasonic, Laird and Comprehensive.

Jeff

<<<-- Originally posted by Jeff Donald : Radio Shack is not a source for professional audio or video equipment. Sources for professional distribution amps are Panasonic, Laird and Comprehensive.

Jeff -->>>

Gee Jeff, what ever do you mean? I hear (snicker) that broadcast studios everywhere are replacing their gear with "Optimus" brand. ;)

Like I said, I was there anyway and thought I would give it a try just to see how it would work. It's sitting with the reciept by my door ready to go back tomorrow.

It's surprising that even with their amp only running one VCR, it still made the picture considerably worse than not using it. Maybe I got a bad one, but you think someone in R&D would notice and say, "hey, this sucks". Right?

Dylan, is this an "active" distribution unit? Does it need a supply voltage? Because DA amps are conceptually that simple (for VHS/SVHS signals) that I hardly can understand that even Radio Shack can make one where you can see quality differences in VHS copies (I know "pro's" don't like this statement...). So, or there is something wrong with the unit, or it's a passive one. You should know that consumer analog VCR's have an internal video AGC (automatic gain control), and you can feed them with a reduced video signal (like 25% of the original in case of a passive splitter) and they still produce (record) a full contrast image at the expense of quality (noise, extra interferences..). If you have an active DA, go back to the shop, if it is passive you lost your money and would have been better off reading my posts if you only need 4 or 5 copies at the time.

Hey,
I knew I wasn't going to lose money either way. I returned it for a refund.
It was an "active" unit, as you need to plug it into the wall to work. Maybe I just got a bad one, but it was brutally bad.
Linking the VCRs on their own worked acceptibly well in this case.

Sounds like the quality of the rest of RShack's products. If you go with some place like Markertek, which sells to commercial video people, you can't go wrong. Laird, Kramer, Ocaen Matrix being some of the brands they sell.

I like the looks of www.elitevideo.com when it comes time for me to buy a large scale unit.