I have to say that those who are complaining about the XL2 and Canon's lack of HD/HDV products are really ungrateful.

First off, Canon had their customers especially in mind when they were developing the XL2, maybe not on the level of Panasonic's listening ear but close second. If Canon would have made the XL2 HDV right off the bat, the first thing to be changed would be the lenses and the price. None of the old XL1/1s lenses and accessories would work on an HDV model and everyone would have to start from scratch. I remember everyone complaining about this before the XL2 even came out. We, the customers, made it crystal clear to Canon that we wanted all of our old accessories to work with the next iteration of the XL. What's the solution to that? Standard Definition.

Second, Canon didn't make another XL1/1s, they made a totally different beast that had almost everything asked for. Backwards compatibility with most of the XL1/1s accessories and lenses, much higher resolution, 24p, native 16:9, and more buttons than we can shake a stick at (or try to press for that matter, some of the buttons are small ;) ).

Thirdly, the camera has only been out for less than seven months now, there hasn't been too much to see on the internet as far as downloadable videos, and there is an SDK but it is still having some kinks worked out if I'm not mistaken. I for one believe that there hasn't been enough time for people to get used to shooting with the XL2 so we can see some terrific results, it's no DVX100/A, you need to tweak it a bit more than usual.

Fourthly, Canon shouldn't need to come out with an HD/HDV version of their XL camera anytime soon, unless they want to cannibalize their XL2 sales or aliennate the already established XL2 userbase, because the XL2 has a ton of resolution to make up for the lack of HD/HDV and can hold off until they do go HD.

Fifthly, Canon has a lot to meditate on. For starters, there's the question of whether HDV is going to work out or not in favor of some other HD format. There's also the matter of distribution. Think about it, if the new HD cameras can't get onto DVD's right now then what would be the best camera for right now? Two choices, the XL2 or the DVX100A. The matter over the cost of HD lenses is also a problem. Then there's the question of the HDDVD vs. BluRay conondrum, which one will win or will both work together? Depending on the answer, Canon will know their limitations and goals when they eventually go HD.

Sorry if this is the wrong place to post but I'm tired of all the Canon bashing and all camera bashing in general. Use what you like and use what you've got, people!

Wonderfully put, Jack! It took me about eight months before deciding on an XL2, but it was certainly the right decision for me. I am currently doing event coverage and short films with the XL2, and this beast performs its job magnificently!

The ability to tweak settings with the footage gives us more control than I've seen in any other camera in its price range. Whether you want realistic colors (and I mean VERY realistic), or very vivid, vibrant colors (and I mean VERY vibrant), the XL2 definitely delivers it.

At this point, there's so many new formats and medias... who really knows where it's all going to go? Plus, I definitely agree that the camera is still new, and we're only beginning to see the tip of the iceberg with what this camera can truly do.

Who knows... I may switch over to HDV or ProHD in the near future, but I needed a dependable camera NOW. I've only been using this camera for a few months now, but from what I've already seen and done with it, I am certain that this SD machine will serve me well for the years to come. Like Jack said... stop bashing and use what you've got!

Here, here! (Or is it Hear, Hear...not sure)

Anyways, HD is still not here yet. I just got back from about 3 stores looking at HD sets. They couldn't even get it right in the stores that are selling the sets. CompUSA & Circuit City had a slew of HD sets that were being fed with a horrible signal...it looked awful. Great...high definition crap. If the stores can't get it right, consumers are definitely a ways off before they do.

I still think it's a couple years before it's necesary to have HD cameras, UNLESS you're doing broadcast, blowing up to film or working with a client that requires it. With the new low-priced HD cameras out this year, it's great if you want to get one. But, the XL2 should not be considered a has-been...it is still a "now" camera and works great and has a great picture.

KW

Yeah i have to agree with HD still being way too young to start throwing products out there. How many of YOU have an HDTV this minute anyway? I know I don't yet, what is the point? There is really not even enough "good" HD content out there to even warrant the purchase of the TV yet. Only 3 of the quantities of people I know even have a widescreen tv, let alone an HD. So why make a camera that creates content that only a small percentage of people will be able to view? (excluding those porting to film) The answer: Hype and Money.

With the new low-priced HD cameras out this year, it's great if you want to get one. But, the XL2 should not be considered a has-been...it is still a "now" camera and works great and has a great picture.

Kevin, I think you hit the nail on the head with that.
The XL2 is a 'now' camera.
The JVC is a July camera, and the HVX is a fourth quarter camera.

Those may be great, they may not be.
But what's more important is what can we shoot with today, right now, to get our projects done.

The XL2 is far from a has-been.
In the DV field, I think it's easily the best choice, no contest.

Personally I'm so very tired of all of the bashing and ill talk between and about everything and everyone! Camera models, camera manufactures, software programs, shooting formats, competing computer formats (PC vs Apple), and on and on. Buy what you like and go shot something with it. If it's good tell us how you did it and post it for all to see! I'm on this forum to learn.

Maybe I should clarify one point, I mean shoot it with a camera!

Curb you egos, reign in your testosterone, put you buyers remorse and your brand loyalty aside and have fun learning!

As someone once said, "Can't, can't we all just get along?" UHH!

Mike

As someone once said, "Can't, can't we all just get along?" UHH!

Mike[/QUOTE]

Ha...if ole' Rodney King's video was shot in HD, 1080p, 24p and 16 x 9...he would've had a much better case against LAPD. :-)

KW

Curb you egos, reign in your testosterone, put you buyers remorse and your brand loyalty aside and have fun learning!

Well said Mike.

Here is all im saying,

Everyone has their cards out on the table, there is no reason canon should leave its customers in the dark. All I want to know is should I sell now. I unfortunatley rent my XL2 out and haven't had a rental since January. The Hype is all around HDV and most fimmaker don't care about technicallity like us here in these forums. We know why the XL2 is a superior camera, but I have to go with what makes me money.

If canon would at least have some news or at least something to keep our flame going, like something to do with the SDK, but yet NAB goes by with no word. I love my XL2 alot i waited 8 months for it, ordered it the day it was announced, and will be sad to see it go.

Another thing to consider is that as we moving into a " digital age " we find ourselves doing more green and blue screen work. As we all know DV is terrible to pull a key on, even with programs like Ultra and Primatte and Advatedge, still hard and time consuming. The panasonic is a dream for compositing.

I think we will see a small divide between event and creative videographers until canon lets us know what they plan on doing. If they announced now I would wait till it came out to buy something, but as it is now. I have to go with what makes sense.

Canon has said they will have announcements sometime in the second half of this year.

yes but that will most likely be a GL3 update. not an XL3 update, we wont see another XL for another year at least.

I think you're probably right, though they did say they would have 5 or 6 announcements before the end of the year. So they obviously have something going on other than the GL3. But, again, the important thing is what we can use today. Even an HDV XL3 won't make you any money today...

Personally I'm so very tired of all of the bashing and ill talk between and about everything and everyone! Camera models, camera manufactures, software programs, shooting formats, competing computer formats (PC vs Apple), and on and on. Buy what you like and go shot something with it. If it's good tell us how you did it and post it for all to see! I'm on this forum to learn.

Maybe I should clarify one point, I mean shoot it with a camera!

Curb you egos, reign in your testosterone, put you buyers remorse and your brand loyalty aside and have fun learning!

As someone once said, "Can't, can't we all just get along?" UHH!

Mike

Yes, we can all get along just fine here at DV-INFO. It's a posting requirement! All the moderators here work to keep the posters and their content tilted towards the friendly side. Having to use real names helps a lot in this respect.

-gb-

a canon e-mail I got today said no HDV. Here is part of it,,

Unfortunately, the HDV technology is only Sony and JVC exclusive.
Canon's camcorders do not have any access to incorporate the copyrighted
HD technology. Canon headquarters has not announced any plans to create
a GL3 or their own high definition technology, however, since Sony and
JVC are competitors in the market of videography, I presume that Canon's
engineers are currently working on something.


I take that to be a good sign. Maybe Canon will skip the HDV and do HD.

I take that to be a good sign. Maybe Canon will skip the HDV and do HD.

Wow, imagine that. Be still my heart!

Jay

Bob, I thought from reading earlier threads that Canon is in the HDV consortium? I don't know for sure myself since I don't follow industry insider stuff -- but that's what's been said before.

Anyway, despite some posts by professionals to the contrary, my speculation over in an Area 51 thread pretty closely mirrors our discussion here that Canon may do better than HDV for any new prosumer-level camera:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43620

Luis, I understand that for businesses either involved in short shelf-life video (eg, reality TV, local cable, etc) or with a client base that is happy with their current SD products (eg weddings/events), HD cameras may right now not be a business necessity. But I don't think it is a viewpoint that'll carry the day. A lot of us would be better off with an HD camera now, if we can get one we can afford, with similar control features to the XL2.

Reasons to shoot HD now include:
- Improved ability to composite and key with a good end result. (This hobbyist would love to have green screen keys so good that the viewer can't tell they are keyed clips...ain't easy with DV).
- Best quality for longevity of the material in the commercial market; a lot of content is shot for longterm use. (Despite the naysayers and the slow progress, in not too many years SD TV will be fully supplanted by HD)
- Many indie producers and hobbyists (perhaps the majority of prosumer camera buyers?) always want the best, whether they "need" it or not. As my wife is fond of saying, "Need is relative."
- Pete Bauer is geek enough to need to shoot his daughter's birthday party in HD...because he can. C'mon, y'all 'fess up...you know you WANT, I mean NEED, HD! ;-)

Marco and Kevin, I'm just a hobbyist, who incidentally, DOES have a 55" HDTV and HD programming, as do many of my friends and work colleagues. Just watched CSI in HD last evening with my wife (her fav show). Lots of people ARE buying HDTVs (ain't many 4:3 TVs being sold at Best Buy any more) and our main gripe is, as you pointed out, not enough HD programming. My belief is that HD has been slow to take off because not enough programming is shot and broadcast in HD. These new, relatively inexpensive HD cameras ought to open the floodgates for programming, and all us good folks here at DVinfo who can oughta help create that content! If I can afford an HD camera, I soon won't excuse cable/satellite providers for not being able to acquire and broadcast most everything in HD (and not that 4:3 SD-studio-camera-pillarbox-on-the-HD-channel CRAP)!

My XL2 will probably be beloved only until an HD cam like Panny's upcoming product -- or Canon's answer to it -- eclipses the XL2. In the meantime, I'm using the best SD prosumer camera on the market to develop my skills.

I just bought my Xl2 in November, and I am enjoying it. It's making me money and I'll probably "upgrade" in three years.

But I don't think it will be hdv. This is just a guess, but I have a funny feeling that technology will leapfrog past hdv, in about three years.

Just a gut feeling, based on the exponential leaps in technology and storage abilities.

HD adoption for the home viewer, will await SD prices before it gains anything like 50% market share however.

I must go now... the crystal ball grows dark....

Bob, I thought from reading earlier threads that Canon is in the HDV consortium? I don't know for sure myself since I don't follow industry insider stuff -- but that's what's been said before.





That's true it has been posted that they are and I've seen a list with them on it. I e-mailed Canon sales about a GL3 or anything else in the works and I ask about HDV. That was the answer I got. Maybe the guy had no clue what he was talking about. Maybe Chris can clear this up.

Chris if Canon is part of the HDV consortium why would they say they have nothing to do with HDV? Maybe they are going to try something else!

Not answering for Chris, but Canon is widely known for holding their cards tightly to their chest! To say they are tight-lipped would be an understatement!

Jay

Not answering for Chris, but Canon is widely known for holding their cards tightly to their chest! To say they are tight-lipped would be an understatement!

Jay

That's the best way to play cards!

Yea guys but when everyone else cards are on the table, and we are all waiting to see if Canon will bet or fold on the HDV hand , then whats the freakin point of holding cards. There is no reason, what are all the other manufacturer gonna sprint to make what canon might announce ? NO

The XL series are the superior cameras in my mind, I just wish Canon would stop being that kid with the ball, you know the one who says OK WE PLAY IT MY WAY OR NO WAY GOT IT ? just cause he is the only one with the Joe Dimaggio Baseball.

Just my thoughts

James did you read that e-mail I got? It almost sounds like they folded on the HDV format and maybe working on something else.

As long as were using poker metaphors, money money is riding on canon skipping over HDV altogether.

Maybe Canon sat back and let Sony and JVC try out HDV to see how it works. Maybe ony and JVC told Canon to stick it. But if your part of the HDV constortium and you can't sell HDV cameras? Whats up with that?

Maybe Canon going to make a run with Panasonic and go HD instead of HDV,,,

Boy that would be fascinating.
They are a part of the HDV consortium, so that's odd that they would say that.
Hmmmmm.

But if they don't make an HDV camera, what codec would they use?
Like I said before, Canon has never introduced a new codec.
Add to that the fact that they've never sold decks.

So what will they release if not HDV?
A new HD codec based around HDD recording or solid state?
That sounds pretty far fetched for a company that has never been an early adopter or innovator (in terms of format at least).


(sorry, i'm getting into area51 territory now)


EDITED TO ADD:

oops, I really am in Area51 territory...seeing as the thread there is covering the same exact topic:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43620&page=2

Perhaps this conversation should just migrate there?

Among many other considerations I had when buying the XL2 was, HDV uses even higher compression than miniDV, which means loss in colour information. Not good if doing blue/green screen work, I haven't done a comparison myself, but I have had plenty of SD challenges!

Choose the camera that suits your needs. Why do I need thousands of fiddly gadget buttons (like the Z1). Do I have a HD TV? (no), Does my audience ? (no). Do I want the extra hard disk space and rendering time ? (no). Do I want to buy into a bleeding edge standard ? (no).

Do I want a camera that feels right? (yes)
Do I want to be able to use existing accessories? (yes)
Do I want 16:9 native? (yes)
Do I want a versatile camera that can be handheld, or shoulder mount ? (yes)
Do I want to be able to change lenses ? (yes)
Do I want to be able to fit pro 35mm lenses at some point ? (yes, although I would hire these if necessary).
Do I want great sound and good headphone amp? (yes)
Do I want 25P filming mode) (yes)
Do I want optics that I can trust? (yes)
Do I care more about the technology than the end result ? (no)

The above was some of the considerations I made when choosing XL2 over HDV (SONY Z1).

For me, the canon fits the bill. For others it may not. Too much emphasis is put on technology.

Filming is about capturing moments/moods and capturing them well. I don't sit down and watch a classic and think "nice film, should have been done on HD".

No point arguing about it, beauty is in the eye of the beholder and it comes down to personal choice.