I'm trying to decide between Xpress Pro HD (without Mojo for now) on the PC and FCP 5.0 Studio on the Mac.

I will need to buy a new machine eventually in either case. My use is for small company video production (weddings and events), HD for cable/satellite, and some independent filmmaking. I plan on shooting HD when the new Panasonic HVX200 becomes available this fall.

I currently have a PC that is close to the min for Avid: 2.4Ghz 800FSB HT, 1 GB DDR RAM, nVidia FX 5700LE 256MB graphics card. My thought is to start out editing SD with Avid on the PC, and then buy a new dual Xeon 3.4Ghz machine when I start editing HD. I have priced a refurb Dell for $2,059 that has everything I need (dual Xeon 3.4Ghz, 2GB DDR, 80/250 SATA HDDs, nVidia Quadro FX 1300 w/ Dual Mon DVI).

I think a refurb Mac G5 2.5 would cost around $3,000 after adding RAM to get 2GB, and a 2nd HDD.

I can get education discounts for both:
FCP Studio 5.0 -- $500
Avid XpressPro HD 5.1 -- $350

So, here's equivalent packages as of today:

PC - Refurb Dell Dual Xeon 3.4Ghz $2,059
Avid Xpress Pro HD (educ.) $350
=============================================
TOTAL PC/AVID PACKAGE $2,359

Mac - Refurb G5 Dual 2.5Ghz $3,000
FCP 5.0 Studio (educ) $500
============================================
TOTAL MAC/FCP PACKAGE $3,500

So it looks like the Mac package is at least $1,000 more than the PC.
If anybody knows how to get this Mac for cheaper, I'd love to hear about it.

I like both Macs and PCs, and I don't want to start a PC-Mac war. This is all about getting the best value system.

I need the most bang for the buck. What to you recommend?

Strictly on a flexibility basis, (I'm a PC man) IF you go with the mac, you can still go with AVID, and add FCP later.

Just thought I'd confuse the issue.... sorry.

Thanks for the suggestion, but I'd rather not be switching NLEs at some later date.

My whole motivation for changing NLEs now is to pick a NLE for the long term, and stick with it so I can really learn it. My current NLE (LE 6.1) doesn't support HD (DVCProHD). Although I only need SD now, I plan to shoot HD this fall. So I want to start using an NLE now that will support HD.

One thing I'm really sure of: What's the PC equivalent of a Mac G5 Dual 2.5Ghz from a pure processing POV (forget about UI, OS, stability, all that subjective stuff)?

I'm guessing the Xeon Dual 3.4Ghz is close, but I really don't know. If anyone has any hard data on this I'd be most grateful.

My use is for small company video production (weddings and events), HD for cable/satellite, and some independent filmmaking.

I can get education discounts for both

Just curious... how can you get a legitimate education discount when you clearly intend to use the software for a business?

Just curious... how can you get a legitimate education discount when you clearly intend to use the software for a business?
Because I'm currently a student in Film School. I intend to use the educ ver to learn the software and how to edit.

I don't doubt that the letter of the law is frequently ignored, but you said you intend to use the software at a "small company" (after graduation I assume). Apple's software license doesn't allow this, it's only intended for students and faculty. I don't know for sure, but I'd bet Avid has similar language in their agreement:

Academic Copies: If the Apple Software package has an academic label or if you acquired the Apple Software at an academic discount, you must be an Eligible Educational End User to use the Apple Software. "Eligible Educational End Users" means students, faculty, staff and administration attending and/or working at an educational institutional facility (i.e., college campus, public or private K-12 schools).

But getting back to your original question, no I don't think there's any way shave $1,000 off the price of the Mac system...

Boyd,

Are you the license police for Apple/Avid???

It is perfectly acceptable to buy educational SW to LEARN ON, which is exactly what I plan to do. I can't start my business UNITL I know what I'm doing. I am very offended by your accusations when you don't have any of the facts. As a currently enrolled student I am fully, legally, ethically entitled to buy educational software. Enough said about this.

What don't we stick to the technical discussion, like Chris always reminds us to do.

Do you have anything beneficial to contribute?

Boyd,

Are you the license police for Apple/Avid???

It is perfectly acceptable to buy educational SW to LEARN ON, which is exactly what I plan to do. I can't start my business UNITL I know what I'm doing. I am very offended by your accusations when you don't have any of the facts. As a currently enrolled student I am fully, legally, ethically entitled to buy educational software.
Yeah but it would suck to have to buy the software again to use it for commercial purposes.

Boyd was just trying to save you some money.

From what I have seen, most places seeking Editors or people with experience in editing look for those proficient with a Mac, and both Avid/FCP. At least for more beginning positions.

Also, I think it'd be wise to keep a cool head. Regardless of whether you felt offended, overreacting in response isn't going to get you questions answered very often.

Byron,

Well, looks like this thread is going to be totally side-tracked by an irrelevant issue.

I don't think I over-reacted. If you do, then that's your opinion.

I answered Boyd's first question/accusation very simply, but completely. That should have been sufficient. I was, and still am, offended by the fact he offered nothing to help but choose to restate the accusation with additional rigor.

The truth is, the educational issue is none of his, or anyone else's business. I don't appreciate being falsely accused of something so quickly. If you, or anyone else don't want to contribute to this thread, then you certainly don't have to.

I try to stay out of the legal/business issues of other people unless I'm directly asked to comment.

Best Regards,
Pete

BUS-TED! *L*

I've seen both interfaces, and I'd take FCP in a heartbeat. I would only learn AVID if I wanted to bill myself out as an editor.

I attended a seminar featuring Final Cut Pro Studio, and even though I am already a FCP user, I was wowed by the demonstration, as was everyone in attendance, judging by the "Ooohs" and "Aahhs." And yes, there were some Avid folks in the group. I don't know what they thought.

Multicam! Up to sixteen streams of video playing in sync. Cut your own "live" show.
Native HDV input. No ridiculous workarounds.
Output H.264 Hi Def to a dvd now, and play it back on the G5 on the Cinema display.
Native support for P2, now.
Also IMX

And Soundtrack Pro. Watch out Pro Tools! Complete integration with FCP. Surround Sound, Multi-channel audio input, amazing noise correction filters.

For anyone serious about a real post production solution, you got to check out FCP Studio on the G5.

Wayne Orr, SOC

Pete, why don't you try out my own personal mantra:

"I used to be offended... now I'm just amused."

No biggie. Cheers,

I attended a seminar featuring Final Cut Pro Studio, and even though I am already a FCP user, I was wowed by the demonstration, as was everyone in attendance, judging by the "Ooohs" and "Aahhs." And yes, there were some Avid folks in the group. I don't know what they thought.
Yeah, I've heard a lot of good stuff about FCP Studio 5. If FCP ran on a PC, it'd be a no-brainer for me. It's just that everything about the Mac is more expensive than the PC, not only the initial purchase, but all the "little" stuff (HW &SW) that you buy later on. It adds up quickly.

Maybe I'll hunt for a bargain on a used Mac.

Of course, I'd be very surprised if I got an Avid recommendation in *this* forum. :-)

Yeah, I've heard a lot of good stuff about FCP Studio 5. If FCP ran on a PC, it'd be a no-brainer for me. It's just that everything about the Mac is more expensive than the PC, not only the initial purchase, but all the "little" stuff (HW &SW) that you buy later on. It adds up quickly.

Maybe I'll hunt for a bargain on a used Mac.

Of course, I'd be very surprised if I got an Avid recommendation in *this* forum. :-)
Avid works on Macs. And XpressPro HD is coming to Mac.

Whatever software I decided to go with, I'd use Apple hardware if I could. Sure it's more than a PC, but it's also soooo much more than a PC. ;)

If you're worried about the relative cost of Macs versus PCs, you'd better think carefully about your plans to buy the Panasonic HVX200 camera! To do any effective event work with it you'll need at least $15,000 or so to get started: $6000 for the camera plus $5000 for three P2 memory cards plus $1800 for a one-hour offloading device, plus some way to archive all your data from there to hard drives or DVCProHD tapes. This camera is going to be far more expensive to operate than the initial price might lead people to believe.

That said, it's a tough call how to proceed in your situation. I'd guess that many people buying the HVX200 will end up editing the footage in FCP5 on Macs, but that would be a big investment to make before you see for sure how things shape up later this year. So you could just buy Avid now for the $350 price you quoted and play around with it in DV mode for a few months, by which time you could probably save that much or more on the price of a new computer at future prices. With all the turmoil going on in the video industry, it's best not to spend any more money than you have to ahead of time.

Kevin,

Thanks for the suggestions.

Sorry, but I disagree. Attempting to minimize cost at every opportunity is just good business. So my desire to obtain the best bang for the buck with an editing system is unrelated to the cost of cameras. If a PC can provide the same capability/performance of a Mac at a savings of $1,000 or more, then it deserves serious consideration. Unlike many, I am NOT religious about either PCs or Macs. I have used both extensively. I'm for using the most cost-effective tool.

Second, I never said I planned on buying the HVX200. In fact, I plan on renting it. Or perhaps I'll be part of a production that provides it. Any projection of HVX200 workflow costs is pure speculation at this point, since the camera is not even shipping yet. Who knows what the price of P2 cards will be then, and what other options may exist like firestore.

At the same time I realize that the cost of using a camera in the class of a HVX200 will not be cheap. Therefore, I am even more motivated to minimize my other costs.

Contrary to your remark, I AM thinking carefully even before I started this thread. That's why I'm exploring all options at this point before I commit myself to becoming very proficient at using a specific NLE.

Best Regards,
Pete

Pete: I'd pretty much agree with everything you just said, so if saving money at every opportunity is your goal then clearly Avid is the most affordable purchase to make for now. As far as "bang for the buck" is concerned, I'd say a dual 3.4 GHz Xeon system should be a match in terms of performance to the latest high-end Mac G5, depending on exactly what you're doing. All else being equal you'll generally get a better deal with more options on the PC platform, but for DVCProHD editing you'll probably find better support on the Mac platform. Maybe that will change by the time the new Panny camera ships...

I know this thread is old but that Mac price is off. A brand new G5 2.5Ghz is 2999 so a refurb would be much less unless specially configed.

Dual 2Ghz PCI-X Powermacs have been sold in some edu channels for $1700.

Planning on doing SD (NTSC Composite of Component - 4:2:2) you'll need a digitizing card AND a fairly fast SCSI array (and card) for FCP or AVID systems, single hardrives internal or external won't cut it. A UVW-1800 BetaSP or similar deck for SD, a DSR-11 or equivalent for DVCAM/miniDV (4:1:1) using a HDVcamera for digitizing [either way] or any other camera for that matter, is NOT a good idea -- don't forget a GOOD video monitor 4x3, preferrably with a blue gun phase adjustment feature ... When you get to HDV editing (4:2:0) your going to need another video monitor 16x9, probably a stand alone HDV deck, if your serious about the business side

A few companies out there are using FW800 arrays for 8bit SD, most with very good success... lot cheaper...

overall, if your serious about the business end, you can easily add another 10 Grand to either FCP or AVID system -- don't forget to upgrade from the FCP Education package to the FULL release package.

As for which OS package, a no brainer at this end -- my Dual G5 hasn't crashed in over a year, running OS10.3.9 QT6.5.2 FCP4.5. Not sure how the PC's are doing these day's, nor do I plan on finding out.

Good Luck in your endeavour...

David Healy
Reno-Tahoe and Las Vegas

A brand new G5 2.5Ghz is 2999 so a refurb would be much less unless specially configed

Actually the dual 2.5 can be had for about $2,700 new - if you can still find one. It's been replaced with the dual 2.7 which is $3,000. At the Apple Store you can buy a certified refurb'ed dual 2.5 for $2,300.

However if you re-read Pete's original post he says that the $3,000 price estimate includes additional RAM and a second internal drive, and that number was probably about right when he did the estimate. Today you could pick up the same system for about $200 or $300 less though.

If you are eligible for education rate on software then you are definitely eligible for educational rate on the computer.
I work as a media intern at a large high school/college that invests heavily in Apple gear (Xserv on the way for use as a XSAN) and I can assure you and everyone ells reading that you are totally legitimate to purchase at the educational rate.
When the time comes for you to start working commercially you can upgrade from the ed version of software to the normal one at a vary nice price that still keeps you below the price of the standard licensed software bundle.
I have worked on both high end Avid systems and FCP systems. I personally give preference to FCP although you need to know both to make it.
Apple also have killer service.
We are in the process of creating a 99% Mac interface (1% goes to the to the Video Toaster 2 used for live mixing) and Apple have bean nothing but great in helping us out with this project along with all the others we have had assistance from them on in the past.
Try and get Dell 9or any pc company) and Avid to cooperate to this extent and deliver the same degree of service.

I never have used avid but i use and love FCP. IMHOP you don't need to buy top of the line mac or pc (which ever you decide). I've used a laptop, G4, and G5. Most of the time processing power is not used. When I render I go to bed, take a walk, or eat a meal. Creativity, skill and experience are far more important than fast machine. Low end G5 or amd64 should do you just fine. Spend the money on a dual monitor or a second system so you work on multiple projects at the same time. Render on one while working on the other.

Oh one other thing line up work before blowing your wad on top of the line equipment. Otherwise you'll be in a world of hurt. Trust me the real world isn't predictable as school. Always better to have cash in the bank.

When the time comes for you to start working commercially you can upgrade from the ed version of software to the normal one at a vary nice price that still keeps you below the price of the standard licensed software bundle

I thought it was worth revisiting this issue because it's being hotly discussed in Apple's own forums. When people call various places at Apple or ask at different stores they get conflicting answers. But Apple has recently clarified the issue on their website. Evidently the educational versions are "dead ends" which has frustrated a number of people. If you're a student graduating before long then it's best to look into this personally before buying an educational version because they are no longer eligible for upgrade:

http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/topquestions.html

Educational and Not-for-resale (NFR) versions do not qualify for upgrades.

Although some people at Apple have been saying this for awhile, users discovered that the FCP 4.5 upgrade would install over FCP 4 academic without problem. However this is no longer the case with FCP 5 according to reports on Apple's forum. Several people say the FCP 5 upgrade won't install over FCP 4 academic.

Caveat emptor!...

I am using AVID Pro HD on Dual Opteron 252's on an nForce 4 motherboard.

The main reason I won't likely use Mac's is simply a matter fo being too damned expensive and the cost of ownership greatly exceeds an x86 based system.

Yes if you go out and configure them, a base AMD Opteron dual system costs close to the same as a G5.

However, I can upgrade the AMD far cheaper. Currently i am looking at the new Dual Core CPU's. On the AMD, I only have the additional cost of 2 dual core CPU's. To upgrade the G5 when dual cores come to the Apple market, I have to incur the cost of an entire new system, at a cost of what? 4-5k for a dual core box?? it's 3k for a pair of single core CPU's. Dual core is easily going to cost 4-5k.

with Opteron's I can get the latest dual core chips, top of the line for 1300.00 each and plug them into my current system.

Avid supports pretty much the same functions as FCP, including multicamera editing, and HDV is coming in an upgrade. So no big deal there.

According to JourneyEd.com (http://www.journeyed.com/itemDetail.asp?T1=16802546+S6), a well-known academic online reseller, Avid "Educational products are upgradeable to commercial versions."

So there's another advantage of Avid over FCP.

This thread compares Avid on a PC vs. FCP on a Mac in terms of price, but my decision on an editing platform was influenced more by the OS than the price. I don't like that Macs are more expensive than comparable Windows machines, but I pay the difference because I am so much more productive on Mac OS than on Windows. Before OS X I edited on Windows, but I switched to Mac 10.2 because I found Apple's claims about better stability and ease of use finally came true. My productivity has only increased with 10.4 (I actually use Spotlight and Automator regularly), and there's no way I would switch back to Windows for NLE. I don't hate it, and I still use my old PC sometimes - I just do much better on Mac OS. I believe the current version of Xpress Pro HD runs only on Windows XP so that's something to consider in addition to price and the specific NLE.

Several people have claimed that the Mac is more stable than Windows. The only thing I can think of that would support this is if they were running some version of Windows 9x (95, 98, ME).

I have been running Windows 2000 Pro and Windows XP Pro since 2000, and have NEVER had an OS crash, lockup, or blue-screen. On the other hand, I have personally observed an eMac, G4, and G5 completely lock up and require a cold power off to recover. The G5 was a brand new machine only about 3 weeks old.

I have used both Macs and Windows machines. In fact my primary computer was a Mac until Windows NT4 was released. My criteria is to use the best tool for the job, where "best" includes factors of capability, performance, ease-of-use, and price.

There was a time when Macs were far superior in ease-of-use to Windows machines. The margin was greatly reduced with the release of Windows 2000 Pro, and now with Windows XP Pro there is very little difference. In some areas, I find Win XP easier to use than Mac OS10. For example, window management. In Win XP, you can grab any corner of the window to resize it. But with the Mac you can resize only with one corner. The other Win XP feature that I really miss in the Mac is the "context" menu you get when you right-click on an object. Yes, the Mac is finally supporting this, but the standard Mac mouse doesn't have a right-button. I know you can control-click, but this just isn't as easy or as intuitive. I find the Win XP 2-button mouse with mouse-wheel to be very intuitive and efficient to use.

In the end, it comes down to style. If you prefer the Mac style, you just have to pay for it.

In this case, if FCP 5 is a clearly superior NLE (over Avid Xpress Pro HD 5), then I might be willing to pay the extra for a Mac system. That's my modivation for this thread: Is FCP 5 really superior?

Best Regards,
Pete

Well my Dell 650 has many fits, and it's top of the line. Of course I have every slot filled, extra data drives and an interanal array in the thing. I fried a processor within the first week of having it. Called Dell tech support, some guy named Charlie with a bangladesh accent though it was a temperature problem. I now leave the case open to allow for better air flow and keep it cool. Just bad design. We paid almost $5K US for this.

We had some dual G4's that must of been "dropped" shipped. They could never run correctly, always crashing. Swapping out ram sticks and processors didn't help much.

However, three dual G5's that replaced those G4's are churning away for a year straight and not an issue. We never turn them off, they just work. I have to tuck my Dell into bed each night, or I'm looking at a reboot before the days half over.

I know many of my issues on the Dell are memory leaks and ram hogging software, but I never hear about that on the mac, the unix os is simply more efficient in my understanding.

Anyway, I'm looking at an AMD powered BOXX workstation, but I'm taking a serious look at the new G5 and FCP HD. I use lightwave, adobe, and macromedia software. Stuff that's easily cross platform.

Ah, a fully blown/hardware packed G5 may have it's kinks too. But with another windows station, and with my expectations, I'll continue to play a dual role of video-editor/IT technician.

Pete

Pete,
Every Mac application supports context menus with a right click and 99% support scroll wheels. I'm using a Microsoft 3-button mouse now on my Mac. But that's not the point. The point is: if you like Windows XP Pro better than Mac OS, and it will be cheaper for you to commit to it then why don't you go with that? Is it just the HVX200 support issue? I like Mac OS and FCP but there's no way that there's such a capability difference between it and Xpress Pro HD that I would pick FCP if I didn't like the OS or the cost. It's like you said about Windows vs. Mac - it's a matter of style. I've met some people who prefer the Avid interface and some who prefer the FCP interface, and I find the difference between them similar to the difference between Windows and Mac OS. If you like Windows and you're good enough at maintenance to never have a crash with XP Pro (I've had the opposite experience so I guess I need to learn to take better care of my PC) then I think you should go with Avid. You'll be much more productive working in a comfortable environment. Best of luck with your business.