So the show everyone has been told to wait for..... NAB 2005.... Has it begun yet, because my impression was that this show was starting last Tuesday?

You certainly can't tell from the posts on the forum that any such event has taken place!!

Either that means that those people who went along expecting to have their pants wet with the excitement, have come away drier than the Mohave Desert, or they've all purchased HD/HDV gear that instantly inspired them to do nothing else but shoot HD/HDV clips ever since...

I was truly expecting a barrage of - "Just seen at NAB 2005 - FX-1/Z1 killer cam", or "True 24p from HDV a reality".... but even the priests of the various manufacturers are suprisingly quiet; maybe eerily so!!

It's like standing in the Vatican Square and waiting for the puff of white smoke! Unfortunately, there isn't even any dark smoke to throw us off the scent!! NAB 2005 must've stunk...

Yep, it's over and there are lots of posts about what was shown. I think you're just looking in the wrong place. Look at some of the threads here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=98 and here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=80. Then of course there's Apple's FCP5 here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43101

And there are other things scattered throughout the forums. If you use the link on the top navigation bar "New Posts" each time you visit then you'll see everything.

Yep, it's over and there are lots of posts about what was shown. I think you're just looking in the wrong place. Look at some of the threads here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=98 and here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=80. Then of course there's Apple's FCP5 here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=43101

And there are other things scattered throughout the forums. If you use the link on the top navigation bar "New Posts" each time you visit then you'll see everything.

Huh? I read those posts... and they were what prompted me to make my post in the first place.

Where's all the posts like "New JVC comparison to Z1" with all the usual hyperbole on NAB announcements... and the Panasonic disciples armed to the teeth with NAB gained 'knowledge of the true quality of the new Pana-HD cam". If this equated to the hubbub at the instant of the Big-Bang... the Universe would have died from boredom already.

The new camera is not yet available. What can they tell you? There are already plenty of people saying that the Z1 is dead, but others politely mention it won't die until the competition that is supposed to kill it actually SHIPS!

The new camera is not yet available. What can they tell you? There are already plenty of people saying that the Z1 is dead, but others politely mention it won't die until the competition that is supposed to kill it actually SHIPS!

So there weren't any demonstrations of pre-production models of the Pana HD or JVC HD100? Are they that ashamed of the video quality their offerings provide to date?

So, if there were real tangible cameras offering HD/HDV low-cost potential competition to the HD-10u and FX-1/Z1... where's the opinions on how well they stack-up?!!!

I ain't about to go and buy another HD/HDV offering if all I'm going to be told is..."the new camera isn't yet available". Where's something to convince me... not just vacuous pronouncements of apologist bleatings!!

Don't tell people to "wait til NAB", "wait til NAB".... if the waiting leads to these sort of gaseous statements, that are nothing more than poor attempts to cover NAB 2005's failure to deliver, and that require expelling from the appropriate orifice.

Don't tell people to "wait til NAB", "wait til NAB".... if the waiting leads to these sort of gaseous statement

Too true! I'd been reading "wait til NAB" posts for 3 months... NAB comes and goes, and I didn't find out anything about the cameras that I didn't know before NAB came. All the videos I saw from NAB where advertising and rhetoric... where's the real data? Pfft. It doesn't exist. What a waste of time.

I'm glad I was shooting stuff on my FX1 in the interrum... which is, IMO still the best deal one can get, and will be after the JVC and HVX come out. 1080i HDV for ~$3k US. Not too shabby at all. ::pats cam on desk:: Not too shabby at all.

-Steve

Personally I think you guys are taking things a little too seriously. NAB is a trade show... do you really expect it to be hype-free? The advice "wait until NAB" was fine because one never knows what might be shown there, and there's always the chance that prices on some of the older models will drop afterwards. And of course one also needs to consider that free advice is usually worth no more than you pay for it...

Of course if you needed a camera a month ago then it would have been foolish to wait for NAB. I needed to upgrade my computer and software, so with eyes wide open I got a new DP PowerMac and FCP 4.5 about 6 weeks ago because I didn't feel I could wait until NAB. I don't regret this at all since the new version of FCP which was shown isn't shipping for over a month and that will not be a good time for me to upgrade.

But more important, every now and then just remind yourself that companies like Sony, Panasonic, JVC and Apple are not your mommies. They're big corporations that need to make shareholders happy and show a profit. Their PR departments are busy working on glossy brochures that are full of hype. It's only a camera. It's only a computer. Don't lose sight of the important thing, which is what you do with all this gear...

The "Wait until NAB" was a good idea, but the result was that there is no need to wait anymore unless you really want to wait a couple of months for competition to the Z1. We found out that there is no competition coming any time soon for the FX1.

We waited, we found out. As simple as that.

The fact that it was entirely unsatisfactory that there was nothing exciting available for another couple of months really bites. But now we know. Right?

The "Wait until NAB" was a good idea, but the result was that there is no need to wait anymore unless you really want to wait a couple of months for competition to the Z1. We found out that there is no competition coming any time soon for the FX1.

We waited, we found out. As simple as that.

The fact that it was entirely unsatisfactory that there was nothing exciting available for another couple of months really bites. But now we know. Right?

Absolutely right!!

Kinda the moral my originally post was intended to embed in the minds of those who come here asking for advice about what camera they should purchase.

Those guys asked for advice - whether with true heartfelt innocence or predetermined conclusions, it makes no difference, because the advice they got up till now was "wait til NAB" as though all the answers would be revealed.

If there may have been any doubt that the implimentation of HDV delivery by manufacturers other than Sony would be verifiably superior; and available now to reap those benefits..... it should no longer remain.

And for those who kept trumpetting "Wait for NAB!!!", "there'll be better HDV offerings there and then". I hope none of you guys wanted to use the new cameras for very pressing money making projects. :)

I guess it's rental time for those who held off their HDV camcorder purchase!!

...HDV equipment ... to what clients and how do you deliver the hdv content? Do many of you have clients like CBS etc. that can broadcast your work? Or do your clients use DVHS players?

Outside of that, what is the point of HDV camera ownership today?

I just can't see making a buy until the hd-dvd format war is over and there is a delivery medium to the bulk of the planet from independant video producers.

Wait until the world catches up if you wish, but I dsitribute on data DVD using WM9 which can be played on a PC or on the Linkplayer. I own a Linkplayer for my personal stuff, and my corporate training material is all played on a Linkplayer. The ability to shoot HDV provides a clearer picture without having to zoom in on the subject matter in order to show detail.

There is a great way to show HD now, and there are even a few commercial titles. If you don't have one, I suggest you try it out. It is easy to set up for your clients and can easily be rolled into the cost for anyone interested in having their productions, from corporate training to wedding videos, to vacations, shown in HD.

It may not be the standard in the future, but it works today.

...HDV equipment ... to what clients and how do you deliver the hdv content? Do many of you have clients like CBS etc. that can broadcast your work? Or do your clients use DVHS players?

Outside of that, what is the point of HDV camera ownership today?

I just can't see making a buy until the hd-dvd format war is over and there is a delivery medium to the bulk of the planet from independant video producers.

Who cares about giving plebs HDV content? Most don't have a HDTV to watch it on anyway!! Give 'em a DVD that'll work in their sub-$100 consumer DVD player and they'll make comments like, "that was done on your camera? Wow!! That's amazing!!" "Can you shoot some stuff for me.... I'll pay you!!"

How do independant movie producers distribute stuff to the mass market right at this moment? So how is having HD on HD-DVD going to be any better?

By the time the High Definition DVD format 'war' is resolved, Rip Van Winkle will have lived three lifetimes. I sure as hell ain't gonna buy one... either HD-DVD or Blu-Ray, because they don't provide connectivity to anything other than themselves. Even your average consumer is starting - slowly mind you - to realise that they don't need lots of individual bits to enjoy Digital broadcasts or High Definition video.

Media players such as the AvelLinkplayer and the Roku Photobridge allow integration of a large number of devices for enjoying HD/SD/DVD/Audio via simple networking... saving heaps of format hassles and device costs.

Given there's more people out there with computers capable of playing back HD video, the likely success of media players like the AvelLinkplayer is more assured, than that of any far distant HD-DVD or Blu-Ray solution.

first, BD isn't that distant. Second, how much media today is being repurposed? A lot of it. So, acquiring in HD helps assure the shelf life of the media value. There are alternative methods of delivering HD right now, today. I showed some of this at NAB. Nero has their AVC decoder installed in 11 different set top players that are shipping, available right now, today. This can manage 1920 x 1080 media with 6 channels of audio.
Moreover, to shoot HD takes a different eye, since it's widescreen, a different colorspace, and additional gear. No time to learn it like the present. Yes, many are early adopters, but they'll also be the leaders when it goes mainstream.
further, some stations won't accept anything that isn't HD anymore. While nothing I'm shooting is on the Discovery Channel, they won't accept audio that I design unless it's 24/96, and they prefer 24/192 at the production house I deal with. Even though at the end it's just 16/48 that goes out.
Moreover, the transition to DTV is causing a huge migration to HDTV, and this carries over daily. Samsung just started shipping their first smaller, affordable LCD panels that are true HD, 1080p capable. There isn't any "3 lifetimes of Rip Van Winkle" happening here. 18 months, it will be a completely different story than it is today. According to the FCC and CTC, this is the fastest adoption of technology in world history. I believe it, you can see it at every Best Buy and Walmart in the world.

Moreover, to shoot HD takes a different eye, since it's widescreen, a different colorspace, and additional gear. No time to learn it like the present. Yes, many are early adopters, but they'll also be the leaders when it goes mainstream.

Only the ones with talent or connections!

first, BD isn't that distant. Second, how much media today is being repurposed? A lot of it. So, acquiring in HD helps assure the shelf life of the media value. There are alternative methods of delivering HD right now, today. I showed some of this at NAB. Nero has their AVC decoder installed in 11 different set top players that are shipping, available right now, today. This can manage 1920 x 1080 media with 6 channels of audio.
Moreover, to shoot HD takes a different eye, since it's widescreen, a different colorspace, and additional gear. No time to learn it like the present. Yes, many are early adopters, but they'll also be the leaders when it goes mainstream.
further, some stations won't accept anything that isn't HD anymore. While nothing I'm shooting is on the Discovery Channel, they won't accept audio that I design unless it's 24/96, and they prefer 24/192 at the production house I deal with. Even though at the end it's just 16/48 that goes out.
Moreover, the transition to DTV is causing a huge migration to HDTV, and this carries over daily. Samsung just started shipping their first smaller, affordable LCD panels that are true HD, 1080p capable. There isn't any "3 lifetimes of Rip Van Winkle" happening here. 18 months, it will be a completely different story than it is today. According to the FCC and CTC, this is the fastest adoption of technology in world history. I believe it, you can see it at every Best Buy and Walmart in the world.

DSE,

First, it was good to see you again at NAB. Second, I too have written here on the boards pretty much everything you just said. We are on the same page. Having bought an HDTV over 2 years ago, I have been watching the trend with great interest. Remember when you were in Dallas and I asked the Sony reps how long before our local affiliates were going to purchase HD cameras for the studio. Like you, I have noticed HD is gaining critical mass here in the US because the sets have started selling at low end mass market chains like Wal-Mart. And I'm sure you noticed the strong theme of HD in the air at NAB this year. I see many commercials already airing in 16:9 letterboxed to a 4:3 screen to be re-purposed down the road when HD is all there is. And yet, I still see many folks posting the same, "Why buy a HD(V) camera now when I can't deliver it to my clients?" question repeatedly. My advise is always the same here. Sell it to them now as SD and charge a fee later on to re-deliver the same project in HD.

To Steve and Steve,

The 'wait til NAB' advice was for those who might be able to hold off a few months and take advantage of any new offerings at NAB rather than plunge into existing technology just beforehand, thereby placing themselves out of the upgrade cycle at a critical juncture. To wait, would allow for better forward vision of what to expect in terms of industry adoption timelines. And, as DSE pointed out, the time to learn to shoot HD for US clients is NOW. Otherwise, you will be learning while your competition is delivering!

regards,
-gb-

Thanks to all for the many perspectives driving this new wave. DSE, did you mean CRTC? I'm not sure what the federal mandate is up here, but as always our movement will be in lock step with the rest of the broadcast world.

From where I view this, I know of nobody currenty streaming dvi to their sets from wmv-hd content. But it's nice to be ready. I'm going to need 3 cameras to switch over and I'm having a hard time staying with an sd only option at present. The whole notion of creating a product with no way to deliver it to the customer really seems to be putting the cart before the horse. Remember DIVx? Analagous from a new tech standpoint. Sure they have a legion of tech oriented followers, but mainstream ... I don't think so.

Time to start practicing for 16x9 aspect. Luckily the viewfinder I have been peering through for the past 6 years is action safe ... should be a quick study.

The whole notion of creating a product with no way to deliver it to the customer really seems to be putting the cart before the horse. Remember DIVx? Analagous from a new tech standpoint. Sure they have a legion of tech oriented followers, but mainstream ... I don't think so.
.
I'm not sure what you mean by "remember Divx?" They are very much alive, and are licensing to hardware. Their biggest problem is the studios see them as a vehicle for pirates in the past and are having a hard time overcoming the stigma. Nero on the other hand, hasn't taken very long for acceptance. And if Microsoft had held true to their announcement of NAB 2003 when they announced WMV licensing to hardware, we'd be there right now, but for various reasons and excuses, they chose to stay proprietary after licensing to two companies.
will we have a mainstream solution in a year? Likely not, only because it will take a couple years for there to be any depth in the consumer market for players. But we know that this is where it's going. Might as well get used to it if the investment is insignificant, and for the cost of HDV, I consider that relatively insignificant. 3 cameras cost less in total than a low end HD cam....plus glass.

Regarding Canada, I don't know how far along they are in DTV-T, as they called the transitional period going into DTV. I've not monitored what's happening up north.

Gotcha. I suppose ultimately, the viewing end-user customer will have the final vote. From codecs to components, the end-play will have to include an agreed upon standard from the big electronic developers. To ask the public to once again purchase a new disk player isn't a stretch when a major leap forward occurs, but to have to endure a red vs. blue laser issue is certainly unpalatable.