I know it doesn't answer ALL your questions but no article ever can. Hopefully it will help you decide as only you can decide, not me!

Philip Bloom Blog Archive “5d or 7d”, That is the question… (http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/09/23/5dmkii-or-the-7d/)

Thank you Phil...

You da MAN ;)

Nice article!

The only thing missing is a discussion of Magic Lantern. (Have you taken it for a spin yet? With three cams in hand and the fact that there are no reported failures due to ML, the risk is minuscule.) Tramm expects to port it to the 7D in a few months time, but there are no guarantees, as he doesn't have a 7D at this time.

The implication is that you must do double system sound on the 7D for the time being. You have to take the extra time to snap photos and check histograms, as compared to using live zebras, histogram, and waveform. And you can't do press-of-a-button rack focus to a set point. Yet.

I REALLY hope that Canon gives us 24/25p - and 720/60 - on the 5D. And I hope that somebody donates a 7D to Tramm, so the port happens quickly.

Once the firmware playing field is level, then Canon will have a killer one-two punch. The only questions when deciding between the cams will be the angle of view, lenses, and roughly one thousand dollars.

yep Magic Lantern is cool but as it is not official it can't be included in the equation!

yep Magic Lantern is cool but as it is not official it can't be included in the equation!

It's a big part of my equation. I don't shoot video (or audio - especially audio) on the 5D2 without it.

But my equation doesn't include a pre-production unit from the manufacturer. That does change things a bit. :)

That said, Tim Smith, Product Manager of Digital Imaging at Canon USA, openly acknowledged the 3rd party firmware - even if he did think it was from Switzerland. :)

Digital Cinema Society - New Streaming (http://digitalcinemasociety.org/content.php?page=Lighting%20Workshop)

i can't mention Magic Lantern as it is not officially supported no matter how cool it is.

I record sound with my zoom h4n.

The pre production model as far as I know is identical to the production model. I saw no flaws in it.

Hey Phil - Where is the rolling shutter comparison you mention in your article. I'd love to see that.
-C

yep Magic Lantern is cool but as it is not official it can't be included in the equation!
Is that part of an agreement with Canon to have access to the pre-production model? That sort of restriction would seem to require some disclosure on your review.

In my opinion, the requirement of two-system audio due to the always-on AGC and high analog gain settings on the stock 5D and 7D firmwares is a definite limitation that merits mention. Until we have Magic Lantern running on the 7D, the audio problems alone are very practical reasons to stick with the 5D.

EDIT: Also worth mentioning -- the 7D continues to output HD on the HDMI port while recording, while the stock 5D drops to 480p. This may or may not be fixed in a later version of Magic Lantern.

EDIT: The 7D records 48 KHz audio, while the 5D is only 44.1 KHz. This is less of a hassle than 30p versus 29.97 or 24p, but still worth mentioning in your comprehensive comparison.

Well, I can mention it. With the sound level meters, agc disabling, audio monitoring, zebras, and programable focus pull, Magic Lantern has to be considered.

My hope is that Canon hasn't decided to cramp the access Tramm has gained to the 5D on the 7D

Is that part of an agreement with Canon to have access to the pre-production model? That sort of restriction would seem to require some disclosure on your review.

In my opinion, the requirement of two-system audio due to the always-on AGC and high analog gain settings on the stock 5D and 7D firmwares is a definite limitation that merits mention. Until we have Magic Lantern running on the 7D, the audio problems alone are very practical reasons to stick with the 5D.

EDIT: Also worth mentioning -- the 7D continues to output HD on the HDMI port while recording, while the stock 5D drops to 480p. This may or may not be fixed in a later version of Magic Lantern.

EDIT: The 7D records 48 KHz audio, while the 5D is only 44.1 KHz. This is less of a hassle than 30p versus 29.97 or 24p, but still worth mentioning in your comprehensive comparison.

No not at all! I have mentioned Magic Lantern many times but I can't include the cool things Magic Lantern does to the 5dmkII as a plus as it is not out of the box. That is what I am comparing.

You are doing awesome things with Magic Lantern. But I don't think people should be put off buying the 7d because it isn't running on it yet. I advocate recording sound separately but like the article all this is just my opinion!

Well, I can mention it. With the sound level meters, agc disabling, audio monitoring, zebras, and programable focus pull, Magic Lantern has to be considered.

My hope is that Canon hasn't decided to cramp the access Tramm has gained to the 5D on the 7D

Paranoia and conspiracy grip DVInfo. I was not under any restrictions when getting the pre-production 7d other than saying it is a pre production model!

As I said, I am comparing the two cameras out of the box only! Surely that makes sense?

I am super pro Magic Lantern! I just want Canon to employ Tramm and get all these great features included as proper firmware!!

Hey Phil - Where is the rolling shutter comparison you mention in your article. I'd love to see that.
-C

It's almost 1gb as its native and it's struggling to upload to Vimeo and Exposure Room

But I will mention it as an addition to show support to Tramm as have done in past blogs.

Where does 1/2" and 2/3" chips fit in size wise with the 5D and 7D?
Is there any info on this?

Cheers

Where does 1/2" and 2/3" chips fit in size wise with the 5D and 7D?
Is there any info on this?

Cheers

Here we go!

Thanks Phil,

Regards

Paranoia and conspiracy grip DVInfo.
Do you realize that the Illuminati are preventing the 5D from being upgraded to 24p? I heard that black helicopters retrieved the camera with 24p firmware that was being demoed on the set of Snakes on a Train, and that the DP using one on another set died mysteriously due to too much jello. I can't tell you who my source is for this, but he is high placed in the CIA. Perhaps I've already said too much.
As I said, I am comparing the two cameras out of the box only! Surely that makes sense?
If folks were planning on filming handheld with just the kit lens and onboard audio, sure. But most filming projects are not with such simple setups -- mics and a preamp, rails with a mattebox, filters and follow focus, and firmware are all additions to the camera that film makers will add on.

Your review is a great comparison of the two bodies as they come from Canon. Perhaps a separate "so you want to make a movie with a DSLR" comparison might be a worthwhile article.

How did you get that Cinema Lense (pl mount?) onto the 7D? What kind of converter mount did you use?

Do you realize that the Illuminati are preventing the 5D from being upgraded to 24p? I heard that black helicopters retrieved the camera with 24p firmware that was being demoed on the set of Snakes on a Train, and that the DP using one on another set died mysteriously due to too much jello. I can't tell you who my source is for this, but he is high placed in the CIA. Perhaps I've already said too much.

If folks were planning on filming handheld with just the kit lens and onboard audio, sure. But most filming projects are not with such simple setups -- mics and a preamp, rails with a mattebox, filters and follow focus, and firmware are all additions to the camera that film makers will add on.

Your review is a great comparison of the two bodies as they come from Canon. Perhaps a separate "so you want to make a movie with a DSLR" comparison might be a worthwhile article.

Hey, the guy is doing all of this reviewing/blogging for free as far as I know so give him a little slack. Don't run people like Phil off by badgering them.

Thanks Phil

I still think that Canon is playing with us with this odd combination of features between the two models. Using the 7D as a base mark, we should simply be able to get the same features + full frame at the 5D's higher price point.

I just wish they'd get it straight so that we can move on and buy their gear without that nagging feeling that we should be waiting for what's around the corner.

my 2 cents worth

I just wish they'd get it straight so that we can move on and buy their gear without that nagging feeling that we should be waiting for what's around the corner.

These are consumer electronics, and by that very nature they are designed to keep the consumer waiting and wanting what's just around the corner. It's not a conspiracy, it's business.

Hey, the guy is doing all of this reviewing/blogging for free as far as I know so give him a little slack. Don't run people like Phil off by badgering them.

He's joking Ethan! But thanks anyway. I am doing it for free. Mug that I am!

If you want to know how to shoot with the 5d or 7d then i might...ahem... have a couple of DVDs that may interest you!

Tramm. Have Canon even been in touch with you?!

I'll probably be in the market for one of those DVDs in the near future.

He's joking Ethan! But thanks anyway. I am doing it for free. Mug that I am!

If you want to know how to shoot with the 5d or 7d then i might...ahem... have a couple of DVDs that may interest you!

Tramm. Have Canon even been in touch with you?!

Joking? What is this joking of which you speak?

Time to go take a break, clearly I've been working too hard lately and have forgotten what humor is.

i can't mention Magic Lantern as it is not officially supported no matter how cool it is.



That said, is yours an official review then? ;)

5D movie mode without ML firmware is not the same tool.

That said, is yours an official review then? ;)

5D movie mode without ML firmware is not the same tool.

Hi Mathieu,

Are you THE Mathieu Kassovitz?

My article should be retitled "The Official Philip Bloom side by side out of the box review of the 7d vd 5dmkII, un-pimped up, which cameras works best for video in my humble opinion which may or may not matter to you anyway" :)

Magic Lantern firmware is great!! But as I have said it's not "out of the box" and I am not using it on paid jobs myself. I am comparing my experiences of the two, not the experience of others.

This is, like everything I and others write, purely a personal opinion. Am sure hundreds would disagree! Millions even!!

Personally I love them both, hence I will be keeping my 5ds and am eagerly awaiting my production 7d.

Hi Philip. How do you feel focusing on your 35 L 1.4?
Thinking about 28/35 as a "normal", I realized focus ring throw will be much shorter than the one on my 50 (what I'm used to have now as "normal").
I would buy maybe an economic 28 1.8, but I'm worried of the plastic thin ring (and that, such short distance scale from 2 mt to infinite..)

Thanks (also for continuing the Monty Python tradition. Laughing a lot with your videos from you're visit to Nab to the recent british invasion)

am fine with focusing with it! great lens!

I have a new opinion. Check the link at the top for an updated blog!!

Phil:

As I posted on your blog, Cineforms NeoScence conforms footage and sound to 29.97. I assume that holds true for their ProRes conversion.

Phil:

As I posted on your blog, Cineforms NeoScence conforms footage and sound to 29.97. I assume that holds true for their ProRes conversion.

if i could go back in time I would convert everything to this, but now everything is XDCAM EX and compressor is just too damn slow to convert everything.

Also half my footage is in XDCAM EX and Cineform says NO!

Conforming the footage also slows the audio. It's the audio sync that will make you nuts when cutting the 5D2 with a 29.97 camera.

It would be nice if Canon at least gave us a 29.97 firmware update. That would be compatible with the standard that has been in place since December 1953. :)

And it would be compatible with at least one frame rate from the 7D.

Exactly Jon. That's why I am tearing my hair out!!

Conforming the footage also slows the audio. It's the audio sync that will make you nuts when cutting the 5D2 with a 29.97 camera.

It would be nice if Canon at least gave us a 29.97 firmware update. That would be compatible with the standard that has been in place since December 1953. :)

And it would be compatible with at least one frame rate from the 7D.

Well if they gave us that, that would be admitting they could give us 23.97...

Hi Philip and all. Out of Cineform/framerates argument..

7D sensor involves easier focus pulling compared to 5D sensor (provided equal stop).
But then, a 25 or 35 still lens involves shorter focus gear rotation (and lower metering precision) than a fov comparable 50.
I'm trying to choose a fast "normal" that is well suited to pull focus more accurately with.
How is your experience on your 35 L 1.4 on that?

Sigma 30 1.4 I've heard has a stiff focus ring
Canon 28 1.8 I don't know if the focus ring isn't dampened enough
Nikon 35 2 I have one, unfortunately not a good copy in respect to focus ring


On a side note, what do you think about replacing my follow focus gear ring with a smaller one to counteract shorter rotation of the lens focus?

Cheers

The 28/1.8 is a USM lens with similar quality to the 85/1.8. It has a good feel, but like other Canon lenses, the throw isn't very long. It's better than the 50/1.4 and much, much better than the 50/1.8 or 35/2.0 from Canon.

Unless you're really close to something, a 28mm lens is pretty forgiving when it comes to focus.

Unless you're really close to something, a 28mm lens is pretty forgiving when it comes to focus.

True. That's where my concern come from. It is a 28 but will act as a 45 on the 7D, and I surely want to shoot @ f2 with a 45 (I mean, I'm used to get nice out of focus areas with my nikkor 50 1.4 also @ f4 with subject in the 10-15 feet range distance. Not easy to follow focus there, but doable).
I'm amazed this isn't covered here or on the other boards.
Am I wrong?
btw thanks for all your audio testing. It actually improved my beer craving as well

Hi I keep trying to find this out, when you plug in HDMI (or composite or whatever) do you lose the LCD like in the 5dm2?

Can anyone confirm this, or tell me what the deal is?

Hi I keep trying to find this out, when you plug in HDMI (or composite or whatever) do you lose the LCD like in the 5dm2?

Can anyone confirm this, or tell me what the deal is?

yep! but it is better...
Philip Bloom Blog Archive Using a monitor on the 7d is much better than with the 5dmkII (http://philipbloom.co.uk/2009/09/15/using-a-monitor-on-the-7d-is-much-better-than-with-the-5dmkii/)

That's still kind of a bummer then. OH well we'll see if something comes out.

Phil -- another major difference that you didn't mention in your review is that the battery door on the 7D is spring loaded to the open position, while the 5D door requires operator intervention to open it. Clearly this one feature alone will be a factor in many purchasing decisions. Perhaps one of the accessory vendors will manufacture a 3rd party battery door for the 5D to add this important, vital even!, addition to the 5D.

(Thanks for adding the Magic Lantern mention!)