Hi Erik Brul,

You need to train like this. 8 ) (http://www.garrettcam.com/video/walkingtheline.mov)

Regards
Leigh

Hi Charles and Leigh,

Thanks for both replies.. I thought the pogo-ing effect was show during the walk down and by the war - monument.. To me it seems the same little bounce (seeing the footsteps) like Matthew described.
I have another video which shows a walk move arround a grave stone (sort of speak) which indicates the pogo-ing effect much more. I really see here the footsteps so pls take a look at this video (sorry 20mb file)
I don't have enough webserver space so i will replace the 2 files with this particular file.

I know that some things like horizontal level etc is due operator error. But hey, only a few hours of real practice to far. Good idea about a fluid level .. I will look for this..

The file :

http://home.hccnet.nl/ebrul/goeasy/walkingaroundmemorial.mov

thanx, Erik

Leigh,
That's hilarious! Thanks for sharing.

Hey Eric,
Your first two clips looked pretty good. Your third clip showed it. For me, the effect is worse the closer objects are to the lens and the slower I move, which makes sense geometrcially, but I'd really like to find a way to reduce it as much as possible, besides just going wide angle all the time. I think you are probably right about the greater sled weight being better, and of course, practice. BTW, how is your gimbal? Is it tight on the post at the top?

As far as oiling the rig, I asked John about this and he said just put some 3-in-1 type oil or lubricant (household oil) on the arm joints where the teflon washers are once in a while. I tried it today but it did'nt help my bouncing too much.

Hi Matthew,
Thanks.. your latest video was also good looking and very nice level !

Hope btw that Charles also looks at mine latest update and see the bouncing..
On the steadicamforum they mentioned some plates to put extra weight on the sled.. i have already emailed mike if he has a plate left for me.

Now maybe a stupid question :

Can anyone who's living in the USA (like you for example Matthew) post me a picture of this socalled household oil and also the store where you can buy it ?
This because i'm in the USA (Florida) from 29th april till 15 may and want to buy this oil myself to solve this sounds from the arm.

Matthew, are you useing this oil just to solve the bouncing problem or do you have the same 'sound' problems from the arm ?

Regards, Erik

Erik,

"3-in-1" is a brand name for a lightweight machine oil sold here in the U.S. I am sure you have some equivalent oil sold under a different name. This oil is clear, has low viscosity, and is commonly used to oil sewing machines, typewriters, tools, and other such items.

Hope this helps,

-gb-

thanks Greg.. rest me to ask the final question :

Which store sells this oil ? Hopefully a store which is also available in Orlando and surrounding places...

Erik

3-in-1 is a common product found in probably any hardware store in the U.S.

That last video did demonstrate more of the effect, yes. But it does look good, especially for only a few hours of practice! Keep it up, Erik!

As far as this issue goes overall, the best you can hope to do is minimize this effect. The design of the Magiqcam arm is a simple one which keeps the cost down, but is going to be more springy than a Flyer arm (for instance), which will results in the footsteps showing up. A good firm grip on the vertical travel (via the hand on the gimbal, not on the post) will help a bit; walking as lightly as possible as if shooting handheld will also help. Detune the springs slightly so that you are having to partially hold the camera up to the desired height.

Hi Charles P,
Can you explain more on how the our hand holding the gimbal could help in reducing the pogoing effect? Also, by detuning the spring, i find holding the camera up to the desire height is very difficult with a 6kg setup - well still no where near what you operate. can we set the sled higher just to compensite this?

ed

Ed:

The idea is that you are dampening the springiness of the rig's arm by absorbing some of the bounce with your own arm.

You only need to detune a little, so that the arm hangs perhaps one-third or halfway down. You will only be holding part of the weight up with your hands. Certainly it is more tiring, but for critical shots where the pogoing effect may be a real killer, it's a useful trick. My first feature was with an Arri BL4 camera, a real bruiser--it overloaded my 3A arm and I spent six weeks having to hold it up through long takes. I think the rig weighed close to 80 lbs, yuck.

hi Charles P,
and i'm complaining so much with a 6kg camera. anyway, would it help if we change the springs in the arm?

ed

Ed:

It really has to do with the design of the arm. A non-linear arm such as the Magiqcam, Glidecam etc. will not dampen the effects of vertical travel nearly as well as a linear arm. The heavier the load, the less critical this distinction becomes as the factor of inertia becomes more prevalent (which is why the rig always becomes more stable with more weight onboard). The only reason I can see to change springs would be if your desired payload was too light for the current spring configuration, and adding more weight was out of the question.

Charles thanks for your kind words !!!

Rgds, Erik

Hi Charles,
I undrestand what you mean about the arms, but I'm still not sure I understand what makes one non-linear vs. linear. Any further explanation would be greatly appreciated.


Hi Erik,
I haven't had any noise coming from the arm except one time at the elbow. I put a coiuple drops of oil on it and it went away. I lubed the arm joints with a teflon-based product I got from the local hardware store. Here's a picture:

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/tri-flow-lube.jpg

3-in-1 il comes in differnt packages but looks like this:

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/3-in-1-oil.jpg


As far as putting more weight on, I swapped out the Bogen quick release for a couple of Bogen 3419 micrometric sliding plates. These are meant for macro focusing on stills but work great for the Magiqcam because they allow fine adjustment for balancing quickly. They also add about 1 kg to the top. I drilled two holes in the stock aluminum mounting plate that was normally used for the horizontal adjustment and attached the bottom sliding plate with two screws. If you wanted more weight, all you have to do is replace the aluminum piece with a steel plate of desired thickness and drill two holes in it to fasten it to the top of the sled. If you use the micrometric sliding plates, you can just bolt the steel plate down tot he top of the sled and not worry about needing to adjust it, since the sliding plates will gove you all the adjustment you need. Here's a couple pictures of my setup:

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/mounting-plate-1.jpg

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/mounting-plate-2.jpg

The black knurled knob gives fine adjustment. The brass knob locks the plate. There is also a lever release that allows quick movement. I'm going to try and load mine up with some more weight and see if that helps the bouncing at all.

Regards,
Matthew

i've read from hbs and steadicam forum that there are pro and con to too much oiling on the rig. the good thing is it reduce friction thus less noise and so on. the not so good thing is, oil collect dust. and to my experience, in hot weather, the oil might even leak.

heavier lot does help but with my 6kg setup, i still experience the pogoing effect. simply said, its my fault.

hi matthew,
any word from john?

ed

Hi All,
I have good news. I Fedexed my gimbal back to Magiqcam on Monday to get repaired and I just got it back today, which is really great because I've got my first real shoot with it Saturday. Bottom line, problem solved! I was able to balance the sled very well in less than 5 minutes. Took it for a quick test drive and it feels much better. Stays balanced much better and I can slide the gimbal on the post and it stays pretty much in balance (something it wouldn't do before). I will have to test it more this evening, but I am quite happy at this point. Kudos to John for the great service and quick turnaround. Thanks to you all for helping me as well.


Ed, if your gimbal has the same sizing problems mine did, I would encourage you to CALL John at the number on their website. He really took care of me and I'm sure replacing the gimbal tube will solve your balancing problems and make flying much easier.

Ed, if your gimbal has the same sizing problems mine did, I would encourage you to CALL John at the number on their website. He really took care of me and I'm sure replacing the gimbal tube will solve your balancing problems and make flying much easier.

Matthew, I'm happy for you but the really issue in Ed's situation is that he lives outside the US and that takes time and money sending back the rig and waiting for it to be returned. As Ed stated before, the frieght alone is a put off. You got yours quick because you live in the states. Ed lives in Malaysia.

Hi All,
I have good news. I Fedexed my gimbal back to Magiqcam on Monday to get repaired and I just got it back today, which is really great because I've got my first real shoot with it Saturday. Bottom line, problem solved! I was able to balance the sled very well in less than 5 minutes. Took it for a quick test drive and it feels much better. Stays balanced much better and I can slide the gimbal on the post and it stays pretty much in balance (something it wouldn't do before). I will have to test it more this evening, but I am quite happy at this point. Kudos to John for the great service and quick turnaround. Thanks to you all for helping me as well.

Hi Matthew,

Glad that you solve your problem. Can you check if you still has footstep problem shown in your video?

Regards
Leigh

hi matthew,
certainly is good to know that everything work out. i have send john an email with two video files attached showing my problem gimbal. will update you guys with the outcome.

hi charles k,
as for the shipping expenses, guess its just my luck. only wish to have a working rig. i'm still going ahead with the plan to made a new gimbal with the help of a friend here and you folks at hbs. thanks charles k.

ed

No problem Ed. Just concerrn about your issue. I hate things like that. Keep us updated.

will do charles k and thank you again :o)

ed

Leigh,
Though the gimbal is fixed and the rig operates much better now. I'm afraid that the footsteps issue is still there. I don't know whether or not practice will improve this but it seems that, as Chrles P. pointed out, this is probably an inherent design issue in lesser expensive rigs, though I would love to hear from someone regarding how this can be dealt with by design. Now that the new HBS site is up I think I'll try and pick their collective brains and see what, if anything, can be done. I must say though, that for the money, the Magiqcam still rocks. Except for slow moving closeup foreground moves, it appears very useful and well worth the relatively small investment. I'm sure that practice will only make it better also.

BTW, how does your arm deal with the footstep bounce? Does it eliminate it?

Leigh,
Though the gimbal is fixed and the rig operates much better now. I'm afraid that the footsteps issue is still there. I don't know whether or not practice will improve this but it seems that, as Chrles P. pointed out, this is probably an inherent design issue in lesser expensive rigs, though I would love to hear from someone regarding how this can be dealt with by design. Now that the new HBS site is up I think I'll try and pick their collective brains and see what, if anything, can be done. I must say though, that for the money, the Magiqcam still rocks. Except for slow moving closeup foreground moves, it appears very useful and well worth the relatively small investment. I'm sure that practice will only make it better also.

BTW, how does your arm deal with the footstep bounce? Does it eliminate it?

Hi Matthew,

I did not have an opportunity to try any other stablizer, so I can't say anything about that. CP is an expert user on this, so I guess he is right.

I did not feel the footstep bounce in my video, maybe I do not have the experience to tell. Maybe you can help me to check if I have that problem too in the following video I shot yesterday using JVC GY-DV5000 with Fujinon S20x6.4BRM-SD lense. Sorry for the big file size.

wmv format
file size around 92mb

http://www.salenz.com/movie/2005_5_1.wmv

I just follow this video to train myself everyday. 8 ) (http://www.garrettcam.com/video/walkingtheline.mov) I spent an hour a day to practise as I have a daytime job as a programmer and I do not have lots of time to practise.

I follow the advice CP gave me to slightly touch the post and the handle for both hands. It works great. ;-)

Regards
Leigh

Leigh... once again.. file size!

92megs is way too big, even for a Broadband connection.
even with a 1mbps connection (not all that comon) running at full speed that would take over 12mintues to download.

how long is the video? get it below 20 megs...

- Mikko

hi matthew,
any chance of seeing some photo of the fixed gimbal?

hi leigh,
which stabilizer are you using?

ed

hi leigh,
which stabilizer are you using?

ed

Hi ed,

Thank you for asking.

I manufacture stablizer myself and hope to release it soon.

Regards
Leigh

Leigh:

Just to clarify, you don't need to go light with your gimbal handle (non-post) hand--that can be a firm grip. Definitely light with the post hand is the way to go, though!

Leigh:

Just to clarify, you don't need to go light with your gimbal handle (non-post) hand--that can be a firm grip. Definitely light with the post hand is the way to go, though!

Hi Charles Papert,

Thanks for clarification

Regards
Leigh

Took a look at your latest video--I do agree, Leigh, you need to make these files smaller! Perhaps just some representative footage rather than something of that length.

Your basic operation has come up by leaps and bounds, it's looking very good. There is an odd section in the middle where you are rotating around some shrubs in between the buildings; your horizon went all screwy. I think it would be a good plan for you to start working in compound moves, i.e. be tilted up or down for sections of the shot, make diagonal pans etc. as this gets a lot harder to maintain horizon. Also, walking forwards is easy--do your entire course walking backwards (remember as I said, most Steadicam shots are pulls, not pushes). And make those holds more deliberate, hold them longer.

A subtlety of taking corners: make your pivot before the corner, meaning you start your pan earlier, keeping the corner of the building in the frame rather than losing it. This feels much more natural and gives a better sense of space. Watch just about any Steadicam shot in a movie, you'll see this being done every time.

Hi Charles Papert,

Thank you for your time to watching my video and helping me.

I think that I made two mistakes in that video.

1. I have not walked all the route first before I shot. So I have no idea about what to shoot and just shot what I saw.

2 I only trained myself about walk forward and just recent week start to train myself walk backward. So I have no experience about shooting something in circle.

It seems that so many things to learn and so little time and slow progress achived.

I will make a short video next time. 8 )

Regards
Leigh

Hi ed,

Thank you for asking.

I manufacture stablizer myself and hope to release it soon.

Regards
Leigh

any photos of your rig?

ed

any photos of your rig?

ed

Hi ed,

Thank you for asking.

I am in the process of patent application of my stablizer, so I am sorry that I can't show you the picture of my rig.

Regards
Leigh

Ed,
Here are some pics of the fixed gimbal. Note that there is no space anymore between the post and the inner gimbal sleeve. It fits nice and snug now and has seemed to solve my balancing problems. Basically, it looks like John just fitted a new sleeve into the gimbal. I don't know if that's something you can do on your end. Alignment when press fitting the sleeve is very critical.

http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/newgimbal-1.jpg
http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/newgimbal-2.jpg
http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/newgimbal-3.jpg
http://www.jewsfortruth.org/test-video/newgimbal-4.jpg

Hey Leigh,
Your video looks really good. I did some some bounce from footsteps, but far less than I've been getting. It was most noticable when you were next to the chain link fence. Given the amount of control you are exhibiting, I sense that the lack of footsteps is as much a result of your technique and skill as equipment. I still only have about 10 hours on my rig, so I have a long way to go, but hopefully things will improve. Then again, maybe your arm is the difference. Any idea when you might be able to share it with us?

Matthew,

I'm glad that everything has worked out for you and thanks for posting all the pics!

Hey Leigh,
Your video looks really good. I did some some bounce from footsteps, but far less than I've been getting. It was most noticable when you were next to the chain link fence. Given the amount of control you are exhibiting, I sense that the lack of footsteps is as much a result of your technique and skill as equipment. I still only have about 10 hours on my rig, so I have a long way to go, but hopefully things will improve. Then again, maybe your arm is the difference. Any idea when you might be able to share it with us?

Hi Matthew,

What shoes were you wearing while you shot your video? I think that a good pair of shoes is very important. At least it will make you feel good. I wear Adidas sports shoes and make me feel happy. ;-) The shoes price around NZ$300 which equals to US$218.07.

Regards
Leigh

Good point Leigh, i will try some different shoes and see if that makes any difference.

thanks,
Matt

hi matthew,
look pretty good. just send the gimbal unit back to john. hoping for the best this time.

hi leigh,
"I wear Adidas sports shoes and make me feel happy. ;-) The shoes price around NZ$300 which equals to US$218.07.
"
were you influence by the adidas commercial too? i was :o)

ed

hi leigh,
were you influence by the adidas commercial too? i was :o)

ed

Hi ed,

The answer is yes. I watched that video on the net and the next day I went out to get the adidas shoes. That is my first shoes I spent so much money on. I usually buy NZ$30 shoes which is around US$20.

Regards
Leigh

Leigh,

I've been off this forum for so long (NAB and kitchen remodeling) that when I returned I found you have actually started writing more than just "Thanks". I'm very glad to see that happen.

I would love to see some more of your video but 20 megs is all I will download at a time. Can you drop down the size a bit?

$218 shoes. Wow! If they could guarantee you would shoot smoother video then maybe...

Less than two years and counting before we make it to NZ. Maybe we can get together somehow. That would be great.

Our new website is in the process of getting built. I have to get with it and send the new sled to the designer and photog.

Tery

New design Terry. Any pics?

In a conversation with Steadicam guru Larry McConkey (if you are at all into Steadicam, you will likely know where he fits into things, which is to say at the very top), I started discussing footwear. He told me he was fond of Mephisto sneakers. A few months later I picked up a pair (upwards of $250). They were beautifully made, but I found them very uncomfortable for operating, and eventually gave them away. I've been using $60 Nikes for about a year and they are perfectly fine. Most recently I started using orthotics, which have been really good for me. Remember that my usual payload with a Steadicam is 60-70 lbs, and it's not unusual for me to end up operating every day when I'm on a feature!

Bottom line: I wouldn't necessarily recommend buying the most expensive footwear you can find, but obviously it has to be comfortable and provide good support.

Just a quick update for those who are interested. I got a chance to use my Magiqcam IIa this weekend for a real shoot and things went pretty well. I have to say that since the gimbal was repaired, my balancing problems seem to be gone and now it's just (LOL) technique I have to worry about. I was actually pretty pleased with the shots I got and the way the unit performed. Not having tried other rigs, my opinion is obviously quite limited, but it seems that the IIa is a great bargain in the stabilizer world.

One operating problem I had was dealing with the unit swinging around in the wind. Even a slight breeze seemed to cause movement. In this case, do I simply need to fly it closer to a neutral balance position? I had it set up for a 2 second drop which worked well when there was no wind.

Ed, I hope you get your unit back soon. I really think that you will be pleased with its performance. I still have the pogoing issue, but shooting moving people seems to mask the issue quite well.

hi matthew,
great to know that everything work out at your end. will be waiting for mine to come back.

ed

Hi there all..
Just shot a wedding this day. Used the Magiqcam II a total of 3.5 hours today. 1.5 hours on ceremony and photographes, 1.5 hours church and some I still have the pogoing issue.

Charles, did you mean that the lower arm (near to the gimbal) should be down below the horizontal postion

On this point I want to throw this RIG out of the window !!!

Greetz, Erik

Erik,

I fly a DVX-100a on my Indicam so I'll jump in as I have had to do all the things that Charles P. has suggested.

I believe he means that both arms (providing you have a dual arm system) are below their own horizontal positions so your own arm holds the sled at a regular height i.e. just below head height for many shots. This of course depends on the type of shot you are going for of course.

When I had my rig set "high" my human arm didn't do much lifting and hence couldn't dampen my footsteps very well. When I set it lower I had to do some of the lifting (not much thought) which smoothed out the shot. The human arm is isoelastic and works very well. It just needs some help with the heavy stuff or long shots.

I also found when I practiced with my lens in full telephoto mode I could see much better the things I needed to work on. Trying to get and keep a smooth shot in full telephoto mode is a real chalange! One thing I learned from it was to walk with my legs bent more. This really helped.

Interesting post to read.

Thanks to all.

Tery

Hi all,
Just shoot a real commercial for travel agency last tuesday. I have pulled down both springs to the minium so had to do some of the lifting of the arm with mine own arm. As far as the 2 hours shoot let see, no more pogoing seen on the footage. Seems like this is the only way to prevent this killing effect.

But, in a couple of weeks the IBC is in Holland. There will be all the Steadicam / Glidecam and others present.. seems like a good idea that this guy will exchange his Magiqcam for a real one !

So, maybe in 2 months you will see mine complete package with low mode etc on ebay

Keep you posted,

Erik

The Magiqcam is a "real one" unless you are talking about an actual Steadicam. The only real one there is a Steadicam brand.

I've seen and used a lot of different stabilizers and the one basic thing I have learned is that the operator makes the biggest difference. You can give a Stratovarious to a learner and it won't sound very good. You can give a cheap violin to a master and he can make it sing.

When Charles Papert gets with it and actually produces his video - then (with practise) many of us will be able to make our stabilizers "sing".

I have a Word document with many of Charles' suggestions and insites and have found it to be of great worth.

Charles, We hope you get well soon and will start on your video soon.

Tery

Thanks Terry!

Hi Erik,
I did sell my Magiqcam and changed to the Flyer. I haven't had more than an hour or so on the Flyer yet but I can give you a few observations.

1) The biggest difference (and no suprise) is in the arm. The Flyer arm is just much smoother and more adjustable, though the newer Magiqcam IIP has roughly the same type of adjustments. The Flyer arm just feels better. Booming and moving it are easier and it is more fluid.

2) The gimbal feels better on the Flyer. The handle is a little smaller and a little different feel, but overall I'd say that the gimbal is just smoother, again no suprise.

3) I think I actually preferred the Magiqcam vest. I'm 6' 3" 230 and so the Flyer "one size fits all" doesn't fit me great. The Magiqcam vest felt more secure and comfortable since it was made with my size in mind. I'm actually a little suprised at the construction of the Flyer vest. It isn't too impressive, especially given the cost of the system.

4) I liked the Magiqcam's telescoping post, but the Flyer doesn't have one. It is a fixed length which makes me think that the Magiqcam is a little more versatile in terms of the setup; however, the boom capability of the Flyer arm makes up for a fair part of that.

5) Pogoing for me is significantly reduced with the Flyer; however, there are still plenty of signs of it and I can now see how much it has to do with technique and operation. Terry is right. You can't just buy your way to better operation. So I know I've got to practice practice practice... but it is fun! I'm sure with time and proper technique the pogoing I still see now can be reduced much more. I too am looking forward to Charles P's project and hope he heals well.

BTW Charles, I noticed on another post that you mentioned that you needed someone to produce/organize/help with that project. I'm not sure if I can meet your needs, but I would certainly be willing to lend whatever help I could with this project. I'm in the Valley.


Regards,
Matt

Matthew:

Thanks for the offer, I'll let you know once the time comes.

Regarding item 4 on your list: the adjustable gimbal on the Flyer is generally more preferable as a way to change top-bottom balance than a telescoping post (more advanced rigs have both capabilities, but it is a known preference that one adjusts the gimbal first). Telescoping the post changes the relationship of the masses. Also, without a keyway keeping the post aligned, one might end up with a slight rotation of the lower sled any time the post is extended, which requires extra tweaking to compensate.

Hi all,
Let be clear that I'm not complety satisfied with the Magiqcam but it gives better results then expected. I have already tried some shots with a flyer and it handles the pogoing much better. I practice almost every day for a hour or longer.. including the famous line walk through the living room into the garden. So to me it seems that the mine operator skills goiing to be more advanced then 2 months ago. I really walk in the limits of the Magiqcam system.

As far as I Known i'm not the only one with this problem even when those guys did some shoots and lots of practice with the system.

Regards, Erik

nb. but practice is the way to go.. that's for sure..