If my final render is going to be TMPGE to DVD and have used Connect HD to edit HD10U footage in Vegas would I render as uncompressed AVI or render using Cineforms codec?

I am trying uncompressed AVI and it seems I am having troubles , ( small black bars and the video stutters

I'd recommend rendering to CFHD if your source footage is CFHD. For one thing, sections without additional effects will do no-recompress pass-though, which will greatly speed your rendering.

///d@
Sony Media Software

HI guys

Just have a question... I have some footage from my FX1E that I want to downconvert to a PAL DV avi file. The problem is that The footage from the fx1 is upper field first and DV is lower field first. Isn't this going to produce cadence problems with motion ie. shuddering, wobbling, etc????? If so, how the heck do I get around this? Render to progressive? ???

Thanks heaps
Tim

Vegas will split apart the HDV fields (upper first), scale them to DV resolution, and reassemble them into DV fields (lower-first).

You should set your Deinterlace Method (in Project Properties) to "Interpolate" for this to look best.

///d@
Sony Media Software

Hi Dennis

Ahhhhh!! That's nice to know! Thanks so much for your help.

Cheers!
Tim

Well, it's official.

According the the article here (http://www.digitalproducer.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=31899).

Vegas 6 will integrate the Cineform codec and be able to capture from and print to HDV tape.

Furthermore it will support JVC's new 24p ProHD...

I captured 94 SECOND m2t clip with Vegas 6, put it on the timeline and rendered to CF Intermediate using the "Good" quality setting. It took 23 MINUTES to render with a final file size of 1.8 Gig. That's 14.7 times longer than real time for Vegas to create a good quality HD file that can be edited efficiently.

I captured the same clip using CineForm HD Link with it set to automatically convert to CF Intermediate (default "Medium" setting). After the real time capture stopped, the conversion process continued for another 55 seconds (149 seconds in total). The final file size was 1.4 Gig. So HD Link took 1.6 times longer than real time to create a good quality HD file that can be edited efficiently.

Why does Vegas take 9 times longer than HD Link to create essentially the same file? OK the Vegas file ended up being 29% larger. But how does this account for Vegas being over 800% slower?

Where are couple of small reasons why Connect HD is faster (I don't know why it is that much faster -- I was thinking it should only be about 1.5X faster.) Maybe there is a mode and Vegas expert that can help explain the difference (add get you some more performance.)

Here are the few reasons I know that would make Connect HD faster:

1. The conversion in Connect HD is done in the native YUV space -- YUV data is requested from the MPEG stream and same YUV data is encoded into CineForm Intermediate. Vegas is mostly an RGB application, and it currently uses an RGB interface into the CineForm codec. There is nothing wrong with doing this other than conversion times for the MPEGs YUV to RGB to CineForm which internally converts the image back to YUV. The YUV to RGB and back again takes some time (although it shouldn't be much.)

2. Connect HD uses a different MPEG decoder -- we believe is only about 10-15% faster.

3. Even though Vegas is using the same quality setting as Connect HD's "Medium", the resulting file size is larger out of Vegas. There isn't more quality in the Vegas output, the image quality is the same, but the file is formatted differently. The CineForm Intermediate compression does allow for light temporal compression (an additional 20-30%) without impacting quality. This also is also slightly faster for encoding and decoding. Connect HD is using the temporal compression and the Vegas exported CineForm files are not.

CineForm works very closely with the Vegas team -- they are cool guys. We believe more of the Connect HD features will become part of Vegas over time.

Thanks for the detailed reply, David. I'm leaning toward purchasing HD Connect--an 800% speed difference is justifying the price in my mind. But I'll wait a few days to see if any Vegas gurus can suggest a Vegas-based fix for its tortoise-like speed.

Another factor would get me even closer to buying HD Connect. I've spent about four hours editing the CFDH Intermediate files captured/converted by HD Link. Will I be able to continue working with those files in Vegas once the demo period expires?

Will I be able to continue working with those files in Vegas once the demo period expires?

Yes. The files do not expire, so can use everything you create with the demo version of Connect HD for as long as you need. Although I do hope you will see the advantages in using Connect HD with Vegas 6.0.

I have noticed the same slow render times to the Vegas HDV avi format. I thought having built in HDV support would mean better performance not worse. If I were to use HD Connect rather than Vegas, what would the work flow be like? Would I need to apply some sort of color correction for the changes in the way Vegas renders the file (rgb) versus Connect HD (YUV). Thanks for any input.

Aloha,

Gabe

Connect HD is designed to be a seamless addition to Vegas -- there or no negatives, only positives. The key difference is HDV capture is performed outside of Vegas using HDLink. The HDLink capture operation defaults to automatically converting incoming M2T data to CineForm Intermediate fly on the fly. This is a one step operation save you a lot of time and producing output files that are much faster to editing (plus they work in other apps. like After Effects -- another reason users purchase Connect HD.) You can still use all the Vegas features including M2T capture -- yet you can use HDLink to convert those captured files also (very quickly to.) There are no color conversion issues -- as the codec component within Vegas are the same as those in Connect. Connect simply added high performance capture and converse tools -- as well as licenses the codec for full operation in other Windows applications.

David, thanks for the speedy reply. I think I will be going back to Connect HD for HDVcapture for now. Vegas 6 also becomes very stuttery during HDV capture, & I don't remember having that happen w/ connect HD. Enjoy the holiday.

Aloha,

Gabe

HI

can you please tell me what is the proper way of editing 25p? I record 25p(with speed 50 because it gives less motion stuttering) on my Z1, then i capture(with hdlink) progressive rate, change 25p to 24p. Do i need to check remove 3:2 pulldown or not? Then I edit in vegas with hdv 50i project settings changed to 24 and to progressive,correct?. How do I export to m2t? for export to my Z1, do I export 50i or 24p?

I always capture m2t first, then recompress to cineform. Are prefs in hdlink only for converting m2t to avi?If i capture m2t with 25progressive option, is this file any different from m2t captured with 25i option.Does the change happen in converting process?

I tried to export progressive 25p m2t from vegas but it doesnt work i guess it always has to be 50i, but then i don't understand whay to edit in progressive if i have to export 50i back to tape. I understand it makes sence if i export to DVD progressive or wm9 progressive.

Thanks for any help
Mitja

If you capture using CineFrame 25, you should NOT remove pulldown as that is only a technique required for CineFrame 24. 3:2 Pulldown is a frame sequence that allows 24p to work in 60Hz systems. CineFrame 25 is a 50Hz system, no pulldown needs to be removed.

If you intend to go back to M2T tape, you should not do a 25 to 24p conversion. 24p workflows are best for projects that need 24p NTSC DVD or film output.

If you have progressive source material like CineFrame 25 you are recommended to use the Progressive option within HDLink. The compression is even higher quality for progressive image sources. This is one of the benefits for purchasing Connect HD or Aspect HD. Note: you can use interlaced compression on progressive sources, but visa versa is not recommended.

Editing progressiving gives a different look for any motion effects like titles, PiPs and transitions. Each frames is processed discretely, without dividing the image into two fields. Vegas should be able to perform progressive processing while delivering a compliant M2T HDV output (which is 50i.) If Vegas is not able to do this, you need to report a bug to Sony. Progressive frames are completely compatible with interlaced systems, so you are doing the correct thing.

I understand, just one more question.When i export to m2t from vegas timeline, do i use default HDV 50i preset or do i have to change to progressive frame rate.

This I don't know the answer to. Sorry I'm not much of a Vegas user. In theory the project format should be indepent from the export format, meaning you can have a progressive timeline and export to an interlace format like M2T.

So David......

If I am recording in Cineframe30 mode I should be capturing as Progressive within HDLink?

Jim

Yes. Progressive encoding for the CineFrame modes will give you the best quality and slighty more efficienct storage. Both HDLink and the Aspect HD Capture module within Premiere offer progressive vs interlace encoding. In Premiere there is a field called "Automatic" -- this very simply uses progressive for 720 high frames and interlaced for 1080 frames. CineFrame and 24/25/30p sources output 1080p frames, this is why we allow the overide.

Oops.....

Guess it will be a late night tonight.

There is no issue encoding progressive frames with the interlaced option (so you don't need to stay up.) Something to remember for next time.

i have shot 16mm & super 8 film ..

the 16mm will be HD telecined to hard drive using cineform codec at 10bit 1920x1080 at 24fps( 24P no pull down ) ..
the super 8 will be HD telecined also to hard drive but using the black magic codec at 10bit 1920x1080 24fps ( i know i gain nothing beyond 1440X960 in super 8 )

the questions !!
i use Vegas 6 and Connect HD .. Vegas only operates at 8 bit so will vegas time line READ the cineform 10 bit files ?

will ConnectHD convert the Blackmagic 10 bit clips to cineform 10 bit ?

i might convert all the HD files to DV.avi to make editing easier then when i lock the edit i'll switch them out for the HD files ..
if i go back out to FILM i would like to render using 10bit = vegas doesn't do it .. so that leaves Premiere ? which cineform product would i need render in 10bit ? or would i just use premiere/after effects and use the 16bit applications in it ?

Vegas will read CineForm 10-bit AVIs, but only to 8-bit precision.

Connect HD will not convert 10-bit black magic files to CineForm AVI. For that you could was a Prospect HD Edit license and After Effects Pro.

To complete a 10-bit project you will need Prospect HD Edit running under Premiere Pro. more info in Prospect is here : http://www.cineform.com/products/ProspectHD.htm.

Why are you telecining the Super-8 to black magic, rather the CineForm Intermediate like you are with 16mm?

"Why are you telecining the Super-8 to black magic, rather the CineForm Intermediate like you are with 16mm?"

because Pixel harvest ( uses cineform) only does 35, S16,16 .
the place that does 35,S16,16 super 8, 8 only uses BM codec ... i'd prefer cineform but for super 8 i'll take anything above NTSC ..

That is a good reason. :)

i see pixles harvest does 10bit 2k scans using cineform codec..

will all cineform products read 10 bit 2k cineform clips ?

assuming any cineform product can read a 2k cineform file then would AE 6.5pro be able to render out a QT 1920x1080 or 2k file to take over to avid system ?

i have HD connect so i assume i can render out a max 8 bit 1440x1080 cineform clip ( from a 2k clip) using combustion 4, vegas 6, after effects pro 6.5 and not a 8/10bit 1920x1080 or 2k cineform clip ?

You can decode to 2K 8-bit with any CineForm decoder (including Connect HD.) For CineForm encoders at 1920x1080 10-bit your will need Prospect HD, for 2048 (i.e. 2k) you will need the Prospect 2K filmmaker add-on. For exports to QT you can use AE, yet for 10-bit you still need at least Prospect HD Edit.

I'm having a problem bringing files rendered in AE with the Cineform codec back into Vegas. When I open the files in Vegas, all I get is a red screen where the video is supposed to be. What's weird is that I can play the file fine in windows media player. I've tried changing different settings, different resolutions in AE with the same results. One other thing, the only way I can render files with the Cineform codec is by selecting vfw in the render queue ouput module and then selecting the "Cineform HD Codec V2.3" in the format. I don't have a seperate Cineform selection under the output module like some other people have mentioned here. Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks,

CineForm AVI export module for AE only ships with Aspect HD and Prospect HD, however you should be working fine with the VFW exporter. As for red frames, please submit a trouble trick so the support team can help you out.

I downloaded the trial version of ConnectHD 2.1 to try with Vegas 6. After capturing (and auto converting), the .avi files were playable in WMP, but not in Vegas. Vegas shows the files as .avi's, but only the audio stream is playable.

I went back and tried to recapture and convert. This time I noticed that while it was converting (after the capture had finished), the window asking me to wait was titled "Converting with Aspect HD..." Isn't that codec for Premiere? Is that normal? Also, the log showed "Conveting with Moonlight/Elecard MPEG Components (MPG=0)...

I tried capturing again, only this time I captured just the .m2t file. Then I converted it to the cineform intermediate. Vegas 6 was able to use the .m2t file, but still shows the .avi file as "Video: Stream attributes could not be determined."

Also, I am using the firwire port on my Audigy card. Is that a problem? I have read mixed reviews about the Audigy. Thanks.

P4 2.53 GHz, 533 fsb
1 GB PC 1066 RDRAM
160 GB system disk
2*80 GB RAID0 capture disk
Radeon 9600XT AGP
SB Audigy

BJ,

Did you have an old version of Aspect HD installed on your system? Regardless, there seems to be a problem somewhere. Files created with Aspect and Connect are completely compatible, so Vegas should properly see the converted files.

If you can't work through this one you should probably file a trouble ticket.

David.

Thanks David. You were right. I still had the older version of Connect HD installed. Once I uninstalled both, then reinstalled the version 2.1, Vegas began to recognize the video stream.

I experimented a little with some short clips (~1.5 minutes). I noticed that WMP9 showed a beautiful image, but the audio was way ahead of the video. There was no sync problem in the preview window of Vegas, but there were dropouts on both the video and audio that were not there in WMP9. I rendered one .wmv file and one .mpg file just to see what happened. Both files looked terrible, with motion artifacts and dropped frames.

I may have to try a different capture card. I have an old Pinnacle Systems DV 1394-400 OHCI v1.1 card. Would that help, or is it too outdated?

Just a quick question regarding Cineform HD with Vegas 6. I recently converted over to Vegas 6 from Ulead MediaStudio Pro 8. I have edited several DV projects in Vegas with great success. I have to say, I like Vegas much better than Ulead!

I am now trying to edit some HD material from my FX1 camera. I'm trying to understand the "proper" way to capture, edit, and then export the video. What I have tried so far is: Captured using built-in capture with Vegas - works ok. Then tried built-in capture but down converted from the camera on capture - worked much better. I did notice a difference in quality however. Next I tried the Connect HD product after reading a lot of info on this site. I captured the video from HDlink with convert to avi upon capturing. Process was great - but video is very jumpy in the timeline. I'm assuming I need to set the project preferences which I did not do - just read about it this morning!

So question is: with HD Connect and Vegas, do I convert to avi during capture, edit the avi in the timeline, save final avi, and then author to dvd? - OR - do what I am used to doing in Ulead is: edit avi, save final avi, render to mpeg, and then author to dvd?

My end result is to create the "best" possible footage from HD to DVD..

Thanks for your insight!

The reason you can edit the downcoverted avi is because it's DV at that point.

I find it impossible to edit HDV m2t's because your computer has to edit a compress stream versus Cineforms connect HD avi. I am currently working on a 6 camera angle edit and it's still realtime editing. If you try it with m2t files, you would have to wait everytime you moved the slider bar in vegas.

I suggest that you download the trial version of Connect HD. It's worth every penny of the $200.

Be prepared for very long render times. Meaning.....

Capture to m2t then covert to cineform avi (takes about 2 hours per tape to capture and convert)

Once you edit and render to m2t it's about 5min for every 1min of timeline for me.

After you render it to m2t you can then print to tape if you would like. I am printing my finished stuff to tape so I can burn it later once my blueray drive arrives.

Jon

Thanks Jon for the reply!! I have downloaded the trial version of ConnectHD and so far I love it! However, I am battling Vegas now with the "grayed-out" custom button when trying to change the settings for mpeg2!

ConnectHD worked great with the capturing process. I made minor changes in the timeline of a short 5 minute clip (for testing purposes) and tried the following: Capture with ConnectHD - took approx. 1 and 1/2 hours for 50 minutes of video to capture and convert. Print to tape - worked great. It was about 3 minutes to every 1 on my machine (Pent D 950 with 4GB RAM). I added the avi files (5 minutes of) to the timeline, made minor changes, and now I am trying to render as an MPEG2. However, I can not customize the settings. The custom button is greyed out! I searched the forums and found one pertaining to registry settings but when I looked, the settings in question are not in the registry! Any thoughts on this one?

Thanks again for your input!!

I contacted Sony regarding the "custom" button and here is the response. I guess I wasted $129 for the Movie Studio Platinum!

"Response (Mike S.) - 03/15/2006 10:02 AM
Hello Brian,

Thank you for writing. The MainConcept MPEG 1 & 2 Standard 1.0 plug-in included with Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 6.0 does not allow for any customizing of the MPEG templates. Our professional version in this product line, Vegas 6.0, includes the MainConcept MPEG 1 & 2 Professional 1.0 plug-in which allows for customizing the MPEG render templates. If you wish to upgrade Vegas Movie Studio Platinum 6.0 to Vegas 6.0, I can offer you the following special promotion to save off the upgrade price: Upgrade to the latest version of Vegas (applies to all products upgradeable to Vegas) Save 25% on your upgrade to Vegas! Get the most video editing power available, and save."

the original post was about cineform HD & Vegas 6 ..
when did movie studio ( which is not vegas 6) come in ??

Sorry for the confusion Don. As I had mentioned, I am new to the Sony Vegas products. When I called a certain reseller to inquire about Vegas, he stated that Movie Studio was Vegas 6, but with a few less options. So, he said for the price difference between the two, I wouldn't see a difference. Well, now I see the difference in products since I upgraded to the Vegas 6. Hence my confusion........

Thought I would share my experiences with Vegas 6 and Connect HD. I ran a simple test to determine the "value" of Connect HD before purchasing the software. Now that I have the actual Vegas 6 software, here are my results: Computer - Pentium D 950 Processor, 4GB 1066 RAM, 5 x 500GB SATA II drives. I used the same MPEG2 render settings on both files.

The first test: Captured m2t files using Vegas Capture utility. Added 2 1 minute clips into the timeline (took approx 30 seconds). Made a few minor edits (Editing was real time - no lag). Rendered to MPEG2 - took 9 minutes, 56 seconds to produce file. Final output looks great!

Second: Captures AVI using ConnectHD. Added same 2 1 minute clips into timeline (took approx 20 seconds). Made the same minor edits (Edit time was the same - real time). Rendered to MPEG2 - took 17 minutes, 26 seconds to produce file! Final output looks almost identical!

The m2t to MPEG2 looked "a little" better - was very hard to see - actually had to look for a difference. My question is - shouldn't the avi to mpeg2 render faster than the m2t to mpeg2? Maybe I missed a setting somewhere?? I have yet to try editing the m2t files captured from Connect HD.

BUT, THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE - the capture settings of the Connect HD are priceless!!! The simple feature of scene detection in Connect HD is well worth the money! I don't know how people could try (or want) to edit a 50+ minute clip of any sort when capturing from the Vegas Capture program. Unless you sit and control scene breaks manually. For me, the split scene makes editing far more efficient...

Just my 2 cents!

Thanks for the info guys. What I like about Connect HD is that it corverts m2t into a more workable file faster than converting it on Vegas. 11 min clip took about 17 minutes to convert. I like the split scene but I find it more easy to manage just one big clip espeically when I need to replace the avi files back to the original m2t for printing back to tape.


Now as far as the finish product connect hd file looks good when it goes to SD DVD. But does it take longer to render if I replace the connect hd file to the original m2t then render it to go to SD DVD??

Re: Brian's Comment:

"BUT, THE BIGGEST DIFFERENCE - the capture settings of the Connect HD are priceless!!! The simple feature of scene detection in Connect HD is well worth the money! I don't know how people could try (or want) to edit a 50+ minute clip of any sort when capturing from the Vegas Capture program. Unless you sit and control scene breaks manually. For me, the split scene makes editing far more efficient..."


You can use a free program to capture in .m2t that includes scene detect. I believe it is called HDSplit or something like that. I am at my office now, and have it on my home office system. I did notice a couple of drop outs on the the captures I did when I compared them to same captures I did inside Premiere Pro 2.0.

Still, the biggest difference out there reported by experts here is the better editing, color correction, and color rendition capability coming from Cineform editing process.

Looking at Connect HD, I have the minimum spec P4 2.8 (non HT), 1gig ram, 9800Pro a 160gig and 320gig drive, not Sata. FX1.
For basic editing, ie: single video layer, basic text, cuts/dissolves only.....will the machine be ok or would I be in for a rough ride?

Mike, you'll be fine for basic editing as you describe it. To verify, you can certainly download the Trial version from our website and experiment with it.

David.

I am using Vegas 6.0d and it keeps crashing on me. Here is an error message that appeared from the last crash a few minutes ago, when I started to render a project which included 1080i HDV (.m2t) material

Sony Vegas 6.0
Version 6.0d (Build 210)
Exception 0xC0000005 (access violation) WRITE:0x3C IP:0x4154A28E
In Module 'cfhd.dll' at Address 0x41500000 + 0x4A28E
Thread: ProgMan ID=0x91C Stack=0xAACF000-0xAAD0000
[...]
--------------------------

I do not recall Vegas crashing on me when I was editing strictly DV material. This is very frustrating since my project will be shown by the client this Friday I must get it finished soon. Is it correct that 'cfhd.dll' is the CineForm HD module? Is there an updated version I could use that would help?

We sell the updated version through Connect HD, yet the free version should not be crashing. This is a good question for Sony tech support.

Thank you; I have contacted Sony Support and am awaiting their response.

By the way, have you tested your software using .m2t files generated by HDVSplit 0.75 (a widely used, useful, and free utility from Paviko in Poland) ?
http://strony.aster.pl/paviko/hdvsplit.htm

There is nothing "obviously" wrong with the HDV .m2t files recorded by HDVSplit. Editor software such as Vegas 6d and Womble MPEG Video Wizard, and all my video players from Windows Media Player 10 to VLC Media Player 0.8.4a can display them.

But according to another Vegas user, the ConnectHD software (latest version & build) will lock up on m2t files from HDVSplit if they are shorter than a certain length.
See also:
http://www.sonymediasoftware.com/forums/ShowMessage.asp?MessageID=456913&Replies=4

We sell the updated version through Connect HD, yet the free version should not be crashing. This is a good question for Sony tech support.

Sony Tech support sent me a nice note saying I should update my drivers, defrag my hard drive, and use my computer in a cool place.

You refer to a "free version" and I wasn't aware there was any. Is it downloadable from the CineForm web page?

Sorry, "free version" ment the free CineForm VfW codec that ships with Vegas. Connect HD is a commercial product. Sorry Sony support was of so little help.

I have a friend with a multimedia PC connected to his 1080i HDTV and he'd like to see some examples of my work in high definition. Blu-Ray and HD-DVD isn't here yet. He doesn't have Vegas. Is there any redistributable version of the CineForm codec (so I could give him a disk with video in Cineform HDV-Intermediate format) or is WMV or MP4/H.264 the only way to do this?

You can get a free decode by installing the Connect HD trial, as the decoder components do not expire. Or find the CFDecoder2.ax files (Program Files/Common Files/CineForm/..) and register that on your friends PC. One day we will make this very easy (in the meantime the Connect HD installer is the easiest way.)