Hey there

I had my first 'media error - media needs to be restored' issue last weekend during a pretty intensive 2 day shoot. I actually had a friend on the camera as I was assisting with other aspects of the production. My friend called me over to show me the dreaded message!

The card was a 16gig sandisk card in a MxM adapter and was 3/4 the way through. I tried to media restore but the EX1 wasnt having a bar of it! I tried turning it on and off, swapping slots, sticking my tongue to the left...didnt matter..wouldnt restore. I quickly had a go at using my USB - express card adapter to try and get the precious footage from the card via (I had a cast/crew of 21 on a coffee break) clip browser but that didnt work either!! I tried not to panic as we still had about 3 hours of shooting to go in order to complete the shoot and didnt want to put a downer on anyone by saying..hey guys..I think we just lost the last 2 hours work!

I took the SDHC card out of the express adapter and put it into the inbuilt memory card reader on my Vista laptop. I was then able to copy the MP4 file from the first folder succesfully onto my laptop and open in Vegas9. Hooray! I got the production back into action with the hope that I could go through each folder on the SDHC card later and backup all the clips.

Later I was able to succesfully copy all the clips from the SDHC card (1 at a time) except for the last 2 which were obviously corrupted. Thats OK because we re-shot the last two anyway.

After having a look around on this forum, and after having a chat with the camera operator, I am almost certain that the problem was caused by stopping record, and then pressing record again before the slot light went back to green. I have started noticing the delay in the slot light returning to green after stopping record. It can take 3-4 seconds! I am now going to get into the habit of making sure the slot light is green before I (or anyone else) presses record. I assured my friend that it wouldve happened to me if it hadnt happened to him as I previously hadnt been checking to make sure light was green and therefore good to go before recording.

I thought this might be of benefit to other EX users using alternative memory cards. (light takes a few seconds to return to green) Maybe alternative SDHC cards have been getting the blame in some cases when the problem has been pressing record before the slot light is green?

Other than this little hiccup, I am loving using the EX1, its a fantastic camcorder!!

Cheers

Jamie

Hi Jamie,
You are not alone I had my new EX3 three day's and I had the same problem with new Sony SxS cards reporting 'media error - media needs to be restored'. The only difference is that I said yes to 'restore' and the media was intact. I was saved on Sunday during a shoot when the EX3 would not switch slots and I have the error " Media needs to be formatted" . The camera stopped recording and the system hung. I was saved because I was also record via the SDI to my NanoFlash at the same time and kept recording to the end of the segment.
File based systems BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP.

just after get the MxM, the first thing i do, was record with light still on red, toke me 10 minutes to notice that now have to wait 4 to 6 seconds to record again. dumb me ;)

original SxS is about 2 seconds. and looks like the camera "hold" and do not let record until light is green, but this does not happen with MxM. so, if you do not pay attention, media restore will occur.

this is not a problem for me, cause im recording the event with a few cuts. but im not getting media restore error in the middle of a recording, even "respecting" the green light.

will test with others card brands... here a SxS 32GB cost a kidney.

I think the thing that struck me the most about your issue was that you risked the efforts and time (and pay?) of 21 members of cast and crew just so you could use cheap memory substitutes. Don't get me wrong....I have a couple MxR's and Transcend 16's in my gear bag too. But I'd NEVER have that much riding on a shoot and risk it on something that I consider secondary media (at best). I hope you don't take this the wrong way because I don't mean to be hard on you, but the use of these cards (for me) is strictly as a last resort. I only use them either when (1) I'm shooting something just for fun or, (2) when I've filled all my other 8 gig SxS cards and I haven't had the time to dump the files. <shakinghead>

I'd NEVER have that much riding on a shoot and risk it on something that I consider secondary media (at best).

Hi Dave

Im not taking what you say the wrong way nor do I feel you're being hard on me!

But I dont agree with your statement that alternative express cards are secondary media. I have only had the EX1 since April and immediately bought MxM Express card adapters with sandisk cards which I have been happily using ever since! Yes, a problem occurred but I dont believe it was due to the media I used, it was due to the operator pressing re-record when then slot light was still red. Mu understanding is that 'media error' issue can happen with Sonys SxS cards in the same situation.

Its also my understanding that a fair bit of research and testing went into the manufacture of MxM express cards (and the others Im sure) and If I were investing my time and money into the manufacturing and selling of the cards, Id make sure they were a little better than second rate!

I did just order a couple of the ATP pro max 32gig cards which I will use in MxM adapters and provided Ive learnt last weekends lesson of 'check the slot light before recording', I have every expectation that I wont have a problem!

As for the 21 cast and crew...I wont tell you about the 40 odd cast and crew I had a few weeks before that...clearly you'd be shaking your head at that one as well lol!!

Cheers

Jamie

I have and use my original SxS, as well as one MxR and one MxM (so far).

I never got any error message from the SxS or MxM. Yes, it takes a tad longer for the light to turn green with MxM than it does with SxS, but the only effect is the camera waiting those 3 secs between the moment I press Record immediately after stopping the previous shot, and the moment it actually starts recording again.

With MxR though, if I press the Rec button too quickly, I'll receive the "media error" message. So far, restoring always worked - but I don't feel comfortable with this specific combo.

I use both SxS and MxR 16gb Transcend Class 6 (Feb 09 vintage) without problems but I would always use SxS on a totally unrepeatable shoot ie Intvs with VIPs, expensive foreign shoot etc. Mainly because if there is a problem with SDHC cards Sony will wring their hands and not want to know whatever the camera issue - quite rightly under their terms and conditions. In the same way I have only ever used a camera manufacturers own brand of tape so that if there are problems there is no excuse on their part to deny responsibility.

The problem trying to diagnose this issue is it could be several things. I've had Media Needs To Be Restored error messages from SxS cards after they've been dumped. Thankfully after doing the restore all was intact.
One thing I have noticed that's not been mentioned is it's quite easy to not fully seat the cards when plugging them into the camera. More than once I've gone to eject a card and found I couldn't because the card wasn't in far enough to engage the ejector. I think the apparent robustness of these cards can make one a little careless. Swapping cards while the camera is still rolling and trying to avoid bumping the camera could explain why I failed to push the card in hard enough.

Very true, Bob. Another "mechanical" problem may occur when pushing in SDHC combos; the SDHC card itself may get ejected.

This has been addressed by MxM lately, with their new lockable adapter design (while keeping the original price)...

.
One thing I have noticed that's not been mentioned is it's quite easy to not fully seat the cards when plugging them into the camera. More than once I've gone to eject a card and found I couldn't because the card wasn't in far enough to engage the ejector. I think the apparent robustness of these cards can make one a little careless. Swapping cards while the camera is still rolling and trying to avoid bumping the camera could explain why I failed to push the card in hard enough.

This is an interesting point. I will have a closer look next time i insert a card.

Cheers

I had a pretty long talk with MxM today and got some interesting input on these problems based on their testing of 1,000s of cards and combinations. A potential problem exists when switching slots with different card types. Going from SxS to non SxS is an obvious cause of camera confusion. Even switching between brands of SDHC cards appears to cause the camera to have to do a double take which could lead to media problems. Making certain the red light is out before switching slots seems advisable. Avoiding shots spanning cards where the cards use different media would seem another way to avoid potential problems.

To further cloud the issue there seems to be subtle differences between cameras and the voltages they supply to the cards. On top of that as has been noted here there can be differences between batches of SDHC cards from the likes of Sandisk and Transcend. These cards are built to a price point and the factory may use different interface chips based on availability. This is where the Hoodman and ATP Pro cards are worth the extra cost if you want a higher level of confidence.

The later version of the MxM adaptors use a better chipset and they are more tolerant of the SDHC card.

Yes, it seems we are not alone...lol..the truth is out there. yesterday while in the middle of a shoot, like everyone here, using an MXR adapter card etc, l got the same message, l wanted to be calm and professional, so l went into the fetal position and started crying uncontrollably...lol...not, seriously though, these adapter cards are cheap etc but l always go back to the idea of non third party products and then no problems, which we know isn't always the case and not to mention, the SOny pro SxS are very expensive.
It was a love job so like on a game show, l chose the supposed winning door and that was, execute restore to restore media, thankfully it worked as l was not overly impressed with the shooting schedule and was tired from hard core editing all week...anyway, it reloaded and there were the clips, l mean, hey, l did what has been done by others, changed slots etc but will now take the advice of delaying the re-record in too short a time...!
So where am l going with all this, l am starting to wonder whether l should of invested more money and by at least a few 32gig Sony cards and now l read they are bringing out a cheaper version of the SxS card and even there own adapter card..hmmmm...
l have heard rumors...and l mean rumors from some reliable sources that the next firmware update for the camera will not allow these Usb cards to work...realistically, l find that hard to believe, perhaps in the next models they might implement it but l guess like any huge conglomerate, they want a bigger slice of the pie.......food for thought anyway...cheers, Michael

Michael its hard to believe that Sony would do that with the next firmware when there coming out with a Duo Adapter for the EX.

Sony : MEAD-MS01 (MEADMS01) : Product Overview : Netherlands (http://www.sony.nl/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=MEAD-MS01&site=biz_en_NL&pageType=Overview&imageType=Main&category=OptionBoardsModules)

Hi Jamie,
You are not alone I had my new EX3 three day's and I had the same problem with new Sony SxS cards reporting 'media error - media needs to be restored'. The only difference is that I said yes to 'restore' and the media was intact. I was saved on Sunday during a shoot when the EX3 would not switch slots and I have the error " Media needs to be formatted" . The camera stopped recording and the system hung. I was saved because I was also record via the SDI to my NanoFlash at the same time and kept recording to the end of the segment.
File based systems BACKUP, BACKUP, BACKUP.

Lance, if this happens again or has already happened again, get the system checked out by Sony immediately. That is obviously not right and although you were saved on that abovementioned occasion, next time might not be as fortunate.

My main recordings are on my nanoFlash with my SxS recordings as backups.

Best wishes buddy.

Michael its hard to believe that Sony would do that with the next firmware when there coming out with a Duo Adapter for the EX.

Sony : MEAD-MS01 (MEADMS01) : Product Overview : Netherlands (http://www.sony.nl/biz/view/ShowProduct.action?product=MEAD-MS01&site=biz_en_NL&pageType=Overview&imageType=Main&category=OptionBoardsModules)

Here is a writeup on the adapter:

XDCAM-USER.com MEAD-MS01 adapter and Low Cost SxS (SxS-1) cards. PHX-MS240 (http://www.xdcam-user.com/?page_id=308)

John

If you must use consumer media I think it's well worth spending the little extra the Sony adapter/Memory stick combo. You will need a firmware update to the camera so that the camera can talk to the adapter, I believe this is to prevent the camera from going in to record before the previous recording has been completed and thus prevent the majority of the errors that are cropping up with SD cards.

The media restore function should not be something to be afraid of. It is simply the camera performing house keeping on the SxS cards. As I understand it, every 4 seconds the camera writes a packet of data to the the cards file system that allows any damaged clips to be restored to that point. Periodically the camera checks these files against the video files and if it thinks there is any kind of problem it will flag up the restore media message. When you run the restore function the camera uses the restore data to rebuild any damaged files or close the damaged file at the restore point. Another thing that can trigger a restore message would be if the restore information was missing, which could occur if the write speed of the card is not high enough for the camera to write both the video files and the recovery data at the same time. Removing a card from a computer without properly ejecting it can also trigger a restore error as the computer can leave data on the card that then means that there is a miss match between what the recovery file thinks there should be on the card and what is actually on the card. I can not be sure all the above is totally correct as Sony are a little reluctant to reveal all the inner workings of the file system, but having spoken to various people I believe I have the bulk of this correct.

It's a point which l raised exactly, hey, major league conglomerate, versus small manufacture, hmmm, please understand that l too find it hard to believe but for a great analogy, "where there is smoke, there is fire' but having said that, it would be a damn shame if they did and turn a lot of people off Sony, for the record, there is no proof of this happening on paper...yet... but thanks to the people like MXR cards, we have been able to get up and running and not spend huge amounts extra to get space, ok, we have had a few minor problems..sort of...lol and truth be told, it might not even be associated with the MXR cards but there is just something that doesn't feel right and tomorrow, l am filming a music clip and l must admit, l am worried, don't have time to buy other cards etc, will keep you posted....oh, by the way, that card l restored did give me some problems with transfer and kept bumping me out, l just one non important clip but hell, it could of been worse...!

I have an EX3 and I'm using MxR and Transcend 16GB cards. If I stop recording and press the record button again before the red card slot light goes out the camera will NOT go into record mode. I tried it a number of time to see if that would create a "restore" error. I can't recreate it - the camera won't allow it.

Just the other day I loaded two MxR cards in the camera and every shot produced a "restore" error on both cards. This was the first "restore" problem I had since I ditched my one bad card. I reformatted the cards and now they work fine. My new procedure is to format before using. These were two cards that I had not used in a while so I don't know what I did last time I used them. Maybe I had them in my Mac and they had a ".DS_Store" file written on them - I should have checked them before formatting...

This thorn in my side has been these adapter cards, look, they may work for some and l am sure they work well and never have had any problems, for me, l am not taking the risk of losing work and looking bad in front of the client when it fails.
I was on a shoot recently and doing these interviews etc and as l needed to get the last shot, mind you, l didn't touch anything, had the camera on tripod and was bringing it up the stairs, it was a horse race and client did his piece before the race and then l saw, media error, l cringed and after 25 years of production, l went into "melt down" but obviously, to the client, assured him that the rare footage from a hard to get interview with a trainer, would come off the card, anyway, l had already looked after him on price and wasn't fussed about the extra time there but then....omg, then, as it was my bad, l didn't have the SXS pro card with me, look, it was a total disaster that l will not repeat, l had to re-shoot the following morning and then a few days later, had to go back to get a race and some other cut away that we missed out on that day. Very embarrassing for me and it won't happen again as the US dollar for us here in Australia is pretty good and the lure of the SxS card is too good and yes, l know they are bringing out much cheaper version but can't wait till then as work coming up and no trust in adapter cards.
Now, on return to the production house that l frequent when buying and hiring, l brought to there attention, the fact that it was a stifling hot day and when l got the card out, it was bloody boiling, l am sure the SxS does that too but l can't help wondering if it couldn't handle the heat of the day, which made for a hot camera....
Now, l have those adapter cards but will only use them in an emergency and even then, l can't trust them anymore. When l did return to the track for the re-shoots, l did use the SXS 8 gig card and it worked like a treat...thats all folks, cheers, Michael
Oh yes, if ever anyone has seen the film from the "Lawn Mower Man" 1992, the scene at the end where he is trying to gain access to files...that was me, frantically trying to get the footage off as the card would not restore and kept getting bumped off so l used my trusty little multi card reader and what a night mare and another 3 hours on top, just to add salt to the wound...lol

...that was me, frantically trying to get the footage off as the card would not restore and kept getting bumped off so l used my trusty little multi card reader and what a night mare and another 3 hours on top, just to add salt to the wound...lol

I know that feeling, and that film.

Hey, Michael, I just sent you a PM.

Oh my god.....l can't beleive it is you....damn, that was how many years ago that we worked on your film......wow...i will email you asap, cheers, Michael
This forum should be changed to "where are they now"....in the industry...lmao

Yes, the EX1 & 3 run HOT... just feel the back after being on a bit. The double whammy comes in when there is also high humidity which doesn't let the camera air-cool. The camera will then simply shut down until the internal temperature drops to a safer level. Happened to me everyday about 1pm when shooting on the Gulf coast in July... 98 degrees with 95 percent humidity. Wouldn't power up until later in the evening.
PS...Even in that condition, had no problem with the early Transcend SDHC cards.

Hi,

If you suspect an error on a media or if you have a media error, with every try fix the error, you may destroy even more data. Therefore my suggestions on media errors would be (these suggestions are just informational and without any warranty and have not been tested on SDHC/SxS cards as until now I didn't have media restore errors, but they worked well for defective hard discs and should work for any media):

1. prevent further damage to the card: don't try the media restore, switch the camcorder off and get the card off and don't use it until you have tried to restore you data manually
2. do a raw sector by sector backup of the card to a backup file: under linux, you can use dd to do this
3. copy your backup file
4. mount the backup file as file system and copy all mp4 from it to a safe location
5. if the file system is not readable try using a file recovery application to get your mp4 files copied
6. check if the mp4 files are playable and if all your footage is there
7. if one mp4 file is not playable try using specific mp4 recovery tools
8. either don't use this card again or do a sector by sector check and format it in the EX1/3 prior to using it again

Also for new cards SDHC/SxS I would suggest to always format new cards in the EX1/3 prior to using them. I even prefer to format cards before every shooting in order to get a clean file system but there are arguments in favour and against this.

I hope my post was of any help
Bye,
David Arendt

Thank you for the comprehensive list, David. Which mp4 recovery tools do you use?

Maybe newer EX3 don't have this problem.

Or is reading into 32GB storage starting to run these wee camera's brains ragged?

I've just spent about 36 hours in the field switching intensively between a Transcend 16GB/MXM adaptor and a 16GB SXS Pro, doing 'delete last shot' aplenty.

The only media errors I've seen have been when I forgot to knock off the overcrank before pressing record on the MXM - fair enough.

Cam didn't ask for a reformat, but required ejecting and re-inserting to get up again.

No data other than the unwanted overcrank was lost.

Folks were happy once with short Beta tapes, less on film - an hour is still a good slice of time.

Having more, smaller cards is surely better insurance than a smaller number of large cards.

JW

Thank you for the comprehensive list, David. Which mp4 recovery tools do you use?

Well generally I use ffmpeg as it is relatively tolerant to files containing errors.

Having more, smaller cards is surely better insurance than a smaller number of large cards.

JW

I think these are wise words. With any media, even SxS, you don't want all your eggs in one basket. Not only are media errors an issue but simply loosing a card.
Production insurance often won't insure P2 users with a camera with 4x 64Gb P2 cards in it, simply because the loss of a camera with so much material stored in it could be catastrophic to the production.
I also find it easier to manage my media in smaller chunks. For me at 35 Mb/s a 16 Gb card is as big as I want to go.

I'd like to add that the chances of losing or improperly handling a card are higher when you are working with more cards. Some of the Media Restore errors (or at least mine) seem to occur while the device is switching from one card to the other. Bit errors on a card in the file system are at greater risk on a larger card, but overall, bit errors in files are at equal risk. A lot of flash issues, such as significantly reduced write performance, occur as the card reaches capacity, which occurs more often when using smaller cards. The firmware in some cards may not handle this as well.

Other cons are that higher density cards are often made with more layers (Multi-layer cells or MLC), resulting in lower data integrity. Some larger cards have higher data rates simply due to the use of more flash chips and parallelism.

Though, I agree. Handling cards with one hour sizes are convenient due to past conditioning.