Will the MIcro35 have the 'upsidedown viewfinder/lcd' problem like others are having with their 35mm lens projects?

- Shannon W. Rawls

I wouldn't call it a problem, but yes, it will. It takes some quite complicated prisims or mirrors to flip the image. There are some easy fixes for this.

Brett

...and those fixes would be...?!

"...and those fixes would be...?!"

In production, an LCD monitor with a "flip picture" switch, or simply turn your field monitor upside down. In post, just do a DVE to right the image.

I guess Brian was reffering to cheap flip picture fix such as the magnet you put between fliipout DVX LCD and the body. I've seen it somewhere. So technically you shouldn't even need external monitor to do that.

I think I will probably just use the flip field monitor approach, since the idea of putting a big magnet next to my camera (and my tape) just kinda spooks me a little! :-)

"I wouldn't call it a problem"

I would still consider this a huge drawback.
Using a flipped LCD screen on set might be a short term workaround on set. But, I don't know about most of you, but I generally shoot with an onset monitor (13 - 17"). I don't really like the idea of having to keep my monitor upside down all day. But, regardless, I suppose the LCD is 'good enough' to get me by during the actual shoot.

But then you are still left with inverted footage you have to deal with in post. I don't like the idea of having to manipulate ALL my raw footage to re-invert it. Seems like a lot of hassle.

I realize this is just my opinion, and others out there are definitely willing to deal with it. But I for one think the inverted image problem is definitely a bigger deal than most, and not something to just be glossed over.

I agree- though I know the simplest solution is to buy the much more expensive mini35. The way I look at this project is "what are the reasonable tradeoffs to make so we can get 35mm into the hands of those who don't have money to burn"

For me the anamorphic problem dwarfs the upside down viewfinder. :-0

For an entry level device (with the output quality of a professional device of course...), and for the price, I (and many others) believe the image errecting issue isn't a big deal at all. I think it comes down to what you're looking for in the end (nice DOF). Unless you're deploying or distributing raw un-touched footage to your audience/customer, flipping it in post isn't a problem.

For what its worth, we've got a prism/mirror prototype in the works. It won't hit the streets until the first quarter of 2006. It's low priority right now until we get the current adapters shipping. We're going to take the comments and suggestions of the current device and release a 'pro' version which will probably be 3x the price of the micro35. So getting your feet wet with the current device will certainly help make the 'pro' version the best out there.


james
www.micro35.com

"For an entry level device (with the output quality of a professional device of course...), and for the price, I (and many others) believe the image errecting issue isn't a big deal at all"

I agree James. Didn't want anyone to think that I was trying to spread Chris's biggest pet peeve (FUD).
:)

I was merely saying in general (not taking price into account) the inverted image is definitely an issue for me. It is one thing that makes me stop and think, how much am I willing to do/pay in order to achieve 35 Dof. This is obviously just a personal choice, and purely a matter of opinion, not a slam on any devices that are being offered.

As things advance, and drop in price, I hope we won't have to be forced to ask ourselves these sorts of questions in the future.

<<<--
Originally posted by Luis Caffesse :
how much am I willing to do/pay in order to achieve 35 Dof.
-->>>

For me the final image quality is what matters most at any given price point. If a 180 solution degraded the picture or caused a couple stops of light loss I'd not be paying extra for it. Heck I probably wouldn't pay less for it. :-)

And that's the problem...every solution seems to add glass and/or mirrors. If there was a lossless electronic solution then that would be really cool.

I figure I only have to invert the stuff once but I'll be looking at the image quality over and over again for the rest of my life (if I shot something worthwhile).

By the way, DOF is only one cool aspect of the adapter. You also get to use all those nice wide angle lenses!


Thanks for the input guys!


james
www.micro35.com

<<<-- Originally posted by James Hurd : By the way, DOF is only one cool aspect of the adapter. You also get to use all those nice wide angle lenses!
-->>>

So a 20mm really looks like a 20mm? That's very cool.

Have you had a chance to compare lens brands? I think I saw someone once compare some Nikon lenses to Cooke on a Mini35 and they seemed to indicate similar enough results to not warrant the price difference.

Also, have you played with Intenscreens or similar for the GG? I'm interested to see how HD works too. What do you think you'll change for the pro version? How about a tradeup option for early adopters?

The quality is high enough that different lens qualities will certainly make a difference. At least on the 'micro35'...

I just got a 12-24mm for my canon slr and works GREAT on my dvx/micro35 setup. S U P E R W I D E !

I don't want to get too far off topic here (I may start a new thread on it) but.. I can't really tell you a price on the PRO version yet because most of it will be based on what YOU (the people) ask for based on your experience with the micro35. I'll tell you that I'm trying to stay below $2500. Prisms and all... I'll probably release a Mattebox and Follow Focus as well.

Existing users of the micro35 will get a nice discount as well. ;)

james
www.micro35.com

<<<-- Originally posted by James Hurd :
I'll tell you that I'm trying to stay below $2500. Prisms and all... I'll probably release a Mattebox and Follow Focus as well.
-->>>

To me the next step is HD. There's a new HD Panasonic 24p rumored for $6-$10k. I'm going to be looking at that really closely. I've seen some good things from the Sony HDV also.

What about wireless follow focus? Seems like standard R/C stuff with heavy duty servos might work. Have you thought about that?

(Ok, make a new topic now...) ;-)

Yep, wireless will certainly be a great option.

The equipment that will be released in 06 will be top notch stuff at an Indie price point. That's all I can say! I've got to get back to the micro35!!

Thanks Joel!

james
www.micro35.com

I put in a request to the guys over at DV Rack to include a "flip 180" button on their product. They said it sounds simple, so if you own or are interested in DV Rack, put in the request as well, and maybe we can get them to include this in the next release of their software.

www.seriousmagic.com

I may have found a way to flip the XL2 view without switching the whole assembly to the other side.

I had to replace my LCD screen the other day, when I got inside I noticed you could just flip the entire LCD and circuit board 180. It should work, my only concern would be if the wires are long enough. I will be trying it when I get my unit from james.

I'm curious how best to configure the XL2 with James adapter.

Hey guys,

Im brand new to this forum, have only moderate experience with dv as of now (in excess of two years), and a limited knowlege of physics but the solution to the flipped image problem seems pretty simple to me.

Now im not too keen on how the adapter works, all i kno is that there is a lens mount, a ground glass, and a macro adapter, i may even be wrong there. Now, if one were to put an independant single convex lens inbetween the ground glass and the macro adapter (at the apropriate focal distance of course), wouldn't that flip the image back around to be right side up?

That's what is being said on dvxuser.com, it should work, but I don't know if that will have an affect on the ground glass as far as placement and distance from the glass and the camera lens. In theory though, it should work.

Jon,

That would absolutely work! It makes me wonder why no one has made an adapter that does this yet. The P&S guys could cut out a lot of expense by going this route (no prisms).

I suppose it's probably due to need for calculations and most likely custom glass.

I've thought of doing this myself before but nearly every stock lens has too long a focal length for this to be practical.

What is the fix?

It's not right/left flipping, only up/down, and it can easily be fixed in post. I believe the pro version is going to have a prism system in it so it eliminates that problem

There are ways to 'rotate' the image on the camera and on the monitor during production.

I may have mentioned this before but I am pitching the guys over at DVRack to include a 180 degree switch on their field monitor. that would completely solve the problem and of course DV Rack is a great product anyways.

It IS a 180 degree rotation problem, right?

Yes it is a 180 degree rotation, which is the same as flipping a piece of paper horizontally and then vertically, try it with a piece of paper.

Steven

So you basically need monitor that will flip everything 180 deg. Is there such monitor? How about during editing? Can NLE's just flip image 180 degrees?

Of course NLEs can do it - the challenge is monitoring during production. I recall the earlier part of the thread was simply to take a field monitor and flip it upside down. And then there's the put-the-magnet-next-to-your-camera-and-
trick-the-flip-out-viewfinder-to-turn-upside-down but that gives me the willies!

Hey all - I'm just curious how many people are considering purchasing an camera-mount LCD monitor that can "do the flip" to solve this problem. I've done some research and a 5" lcd that can do this ranges from $260-400.

I am thinking this is the best approach (esp. since the micro35 being $500, I am still WELL under the price of the mini35), but wanted to hear other thoughts

Well what i was planning on doing was using that nifty little 'lift up the viewfinder' function on my XL2 and sticking a mirror in between the two to flip it.

ill try to make a picture...

___
| | <---lcd screen part
|___| _____**
\ | |
mirror --> \ |_____ | <-- eye piece
**

u get the idea... im not sure if it would work but im thinking that it works the same way the view finder on an slr are works, and the same way they made their mini35 for Marla.

darn my picture didnt work... :(

phew - I thought it was just me!

<<<-- Originally posted by Jon Laing : Well what i was planning on doing was using that nifty little 'lift up the viewfinder' function on my XL2 and sticking a mirror in between the two to flip it.

ill try to make a picture...

___
| | <---lcd screen part
|___| _____**
\ | |
mirror --> \ |_____ | <-- eye piece
**

u get the idea... im not sure if it would work but im thinking that it works the same way the view finder on an slr are works, and the same way they made their mini35 for Marla. -->>>

Jon:
I have an XL1s and I'm not sure if the viewfinder mounting set up is the same or not, but if it is you can loosen the viewfinder, disconnect the cable and take the finder completely off. Then just put it on the opposite way so the finder is on the right of the camera. Your basically flipping it 180 so the image would then be upright.

It works fine on a tripod, but I'm not sure how well it would work for hand held.

Well the main difference between the XL2 view finder and the XL1s viewfinder is that the XL2's eye piece can flip up revealing an LCD screen. So what i was planning on doing was opening it up so the two pieces form a 90 degree angle and stick a mirror between the two to flip it. I think it works in theory, but ill have to get my hands on a micro35 first before i can clarify. I'll have to try the flipping the viewfinder around, but people seem to have different opinions as to how the image flips.

Can anyone give me a real answer (maybe with a picture) to show how the image flips? O and dont try an ASCII picture... it doesn't work...

The image will flip left to right and up and down. I didn't understand it at first either, but it's actually pretty simple. To correct for the 2 flips all you have to do is rotate the image 180 degrees. That is why the fliping an LCD screen works. It's the same for the XL. You just flip the viewfinder to right and it will be a 180 degree rotated image.

I was just thinking how to explain the flips involved in these devices so here's an visual explanation of how the image is flipped through homemade mini 35/DOF type devices, for anyone who is interested...

http://www.twistedinsomniac.com/180/

Ketih are you saying the mini35 has this 180 issue as well?

No sorry I shouldn't have used the term "mini 35". The actual mini 35 uses prisms to correct the image back to normal. I was meaning for homemade devices or devices such as the micro35 and others. I'll fix the page.

That's what I thought - phew!

here's a monitor that has a built-in feature for flipping the image:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=276812&is=REG

Here's another one - at 1/2 that price:

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=287719&is=REG

That one would not work.. it only flips it horizontally... you would actually be better of using a non flip monitor and just physically flipping it. But the first one does both, I can only assume it does both at the same time.

crap - you are right! Here I was thinking I could get away for a cheaper price. I am pretty positive the TVOne version does both flips at the same time - Larry said they used this in The Ancients and didn't have any complaints.

you could still get the cheap one and just turn it upside down... that would achieve the same effect.

Wait wait, im confused, doesnt a normal convex lens (i.e. a 35mm SLR lens) rotate the image 180 degrees? and then you're filming the back of the image, so its flipped horizontally again. Hence, my logic says its only flipped vertically... some one please explain how it all works out to a final 180 degree rotation.

hey, you got a 35mm lens sitting around the house? take it off your camera and hold it up to a light bulb and adjust a piece of wax paper behind it in otherwise darkened room to see the focal plane - you'll see for yourself and sleep better tonight...

I'm not being a wise-ass - seriously - see for yourself to see how it works... and all the more appreciate the hard work someone's had to put in to get image like THAT to be usable for filming, etc.

a real eye-opener for me was trying to build the system agus/mediachance system about a month and a half ago... I never would have thought that it would be possible to get something as impressive as the footage that's been presented thus far - plus, it gave me a real insight as to the principle behind the micro35...

I know some people here are excited about static systems, but let me tell you, the "spinning" system carries some very important inherent advantages...

Yeah but your still hitting the CCD chip with the same image... you are filming the back of the image but left is left and right is right as far as the ccd chip sees it.

Kevin... you're replying to my post?

if yes, then keep in mind - the camera is filming off a screen (ie. ground glass). It is just like filming off anything. What hits the CCD doesn't really matter - if you know what's coming onto the focal plane after the image is "resolved" by the 35mm lens, you'll know what the camera is filming...

oh, for goodness sake...

1)the image is upside down...
2)the image is also "backwards" - left is right, right is left...

make of that what you will...

3) it's REALLY easy to correct in post production using NLE software - it's not a worry.

4) there are countless workarounds like magnets on LCD pull out screens to flipping monitors upside down to solve the conundrum while shooting...

have fun!

so, in other words, if you want to see properly while shooting and don't like magnets...

get external lcd/tft monitor - that feeds in via cam's "video out"...

turn it upside down
place a mirror like a door hinge so that montor is facing "away" from you... and mirror, like inside cover of a book, is facing you...

pretend upside down monitor is page 3.
mirror is page 2 - you have book open just a crack. the back of the monitor is facing you like looking at the back cover of your book - but you just see enough of page 2 inside to see it clearly...

no sweat...

you're rockin' and rollin'

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Kubat : get external lcd/tft monitor - that feeds in via cam's "video out"...

turn it upside down
place a mirror like a door hinge so that montor is facing "away" from you... and mirror, like inside cover of a book, is facing you...

pretend upside down monitor is page 3.
mirror is page 2 - you have book open just a crack. the back of the monitor is facing you like looking at the back cover of your book - but you just see enough of page 2 inside to see it clearly...

no sweat...

you're rockin' and rollin' -->>>

you don't have to go through all that trouble. All you need to do is take a lcd monitor and turn it upside down. This basically rotates the image 180 degrees, which is the same a flipping the image up and down and left and right. This will correct the problems. the only reason you would need to go the route of using mirrors is if you were using an lcd that was attached to the camera and could not be flip upside down (rotated 180).

Check out the example I put up the other night to explain visually...

www.twistedinsomniac.com/180/