I read a post from Barry Green ( Refer to bottom of page ) and it got me thinking. If FireStore 3 hours of video seems limited what would it cost to do the same with P2 media cards. So I did some figures based on the current P2 prices for fun to see what it would cost to have three hours of P2 media. Again this was done for fun..... But it's interesting though!


These are approximate figures:
Mission to obtain 3 hours as Firestore would for around $800 dollars.
P2 Media 4gig $1,700 dollars


DVCPRO HD/24P - 13min per P2-4gig card x 5 cards = 65 minutes of HD / 5 P2 cards x 3 = 15 P2 cards x $1,700 = $25,500 dollars
For 3 hours 15 minutes of 24P DVCpro HD


For those that do 60P productions for the live feel. Or the 60i feel.

DVCPRO HD/60P- 4min per P2-4gig x 15 = 60min minutes of HD / 15 P2 cards x 3 = 45 P2 cards x $1,700 = $76,500 dollars
For 3 hours of 60P DVCPRO HD


Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/ARRFILMS




Source--
BARRY GREEN WROTE:

<<Let's extend the metaphor a bit further -- what about the FireStore? I don't hear people complaining that "the Firestore is a ridiculous waste of money, because it only stores three hours -- are you kidding me? Three hours for $800? I could buy 160 hours of tape for that!" With the FireStore, people understand -- you shoot to it, you archive it, you erase it and use it again. The P2 cards are exactly like that -- shoot to it, archive it, erase it and use it again. I don't think people will be buying dozens of FireStores over the years, and I also don't think we'll be buying dozens of P2 cards.>>

Of course that's comparing recording 3 hours of DV quality versus 3 hours of HD footage, but still... It'll make you think.

I sincerely hope that DV Rack and/or Firestore support DVCPRO HD soon to make this camera useable until P2 prices drop and capacity rises...

This is the response I posted at DVXUser:

Yes, the cost difference is there. Obviously. But there's also a cost difference between a bicycle and a Mercedes. Drop the firestore once, and see how it affects your cost ratio. Or shoot in the desert, and see what the heat and dust do to the firestore, etc.

You simply do not buy dozens of cards for the P2 camera, that's not how someone uses it. Throwing around numbers like $76,500 would probably qualify as spreading "F.U.D." (what Chris Hurd calls Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

That's just not how you work with the P2 camera.

Those numbers are about as silly as saying that a bicycle can be ridden across the country for free, whereas the Mercedes would cost $30,000,000 to drive across the country, because it can only drive for 300 miles before it's empty, and so then you need a new Mercedes to go the next 300 miles. You don't do that. You buy some cheap gas and you keep going.

I'm not arguing that hard disks aren't cheaper. What I'm saying is, people have to stop trying to think that you need a bunch of P2 cards, or you'll never be able to understand how the camera works. It is a different way of working. And what you'll likely end up doing is using hard disks as offline storage for the P2 cards. Hard disks are less expensive, but they are not nearly (not NEARLY) as rugged, indestructible, durable, reliable, and basically as bomb-proof as P2 cards are. So you don't use hard disks for acquisition. You use them for what they're excellent at -- storage and editing. You use the indestructible, reliable, never-drop-a-frame, heat-proof, cold-proof, shock-proof P2 cards for what they're good at, acquisition, and you use the hard disk for what it's good for -- cheap storage.

I would *love* to see the camera support direct firewire recording, where it could use an off-the-shelf firewire hard disk. For live event recording under controlled conditions, that might be ideal. That would beat the living snot, pricewise, out of using FireStores. A 40gb external firewire disk is, what, $60 or so, vs. $800 for the FireStore?

You can get 60GB PCMCIA drives for several hundred dollars :). No word yet if the cam can power these as well but I see no reason it wouldn't. Transfer speeds are in the right place as well. So... assuming that this would work:

DVCproHD 24p: 3.25 hours around $300

Of course P2 is many times better but these should do to start with.

I agree with everything you say Barry. However, if P2 prices don't drop drastically, while at the same time the capacity goes up exponentially at NAB, then this camera is unusable for the event videography that I generally do. However, if someone like Firestore or DV Rack decide to support it--or if it can record direct to a normal HD (which, why shouldn't it? It simply writes files to the P2 card...), I can use the camera until P2 is at an affordable point for me. Is the camera an absolutely revolutionary breakthrough either way? You betcha. Worth every penny of $10,000 if it does well what the specs indicate it will. Which is why I desperately want there to be a way for me to use it.

<< What I'm saying is, people have to stop trying to think that you need a bunch of P2 cards, or you'll never be able to understand how the camera works. >>

Thanks Barry. As usual you've hit the nail right on the head.

I think it's more than clear that P2 is best suited for short-take videography such as news gathering and narrative and documentary work. For event work, P2 may not yet best suited for that. Although theoretically all you need are *two* 4GB P2 cards for *any* length of recording, be it three hours or six hours or 60 hours or whatever, as long as you don't mind hot-swapping, downloading and reinserting cards on a relay basis. I'm not saying that's a practical thing to do; I'm just saying that two cards are all you really need in order to have the ability to do limitless recording for as long as you're able to stay awake at the helm.

Hi Barry. This was just for fun as I said.....

Every professional photographer I know had just a few CF cards because of the cost a few years ago, now they have a pocket full. There dirt cheap, no reason not to. Compared to over three years ago when I got my first DSLR when I only had two CF cards. Today I own 7 512mb and 3 1 gigs only because they got cheap.


The reason people are not going to have a lot of P2 cards isn't because they don't need them, it's because it will cost to much to have a lot of them.

Now if P2 4gigs were $100 dollars just for example, people would own 10 to 15 of them easily. I would buy 20 of them at that price. Who wouldn't.

So not having a lot of P2 media is not because there is not a need, it's because they can't, do to the high price of P2 media as of now.

I will tell you when these 4 gigs are dirt cheap, and they will be one day as all memory does, people will have a pocket full of P2 cards.

So one day years from now when Jan tells someone "" why not buy a bunch of P2 cards because there cheap" " I will have to remind her that she professed that no one needs a lot of them because you must re-think your work flow.

I'll make a bet that the Panasonic production philosophy of you don't need a lot of P2 is convenient to back up its high price issue. When P2 cards are dirt cheap, that part of the work flow philosophy will suddenly disappear from the Panasonic mantra, and all of a sudden they will sing the song " P2 cards are cheap so buy many" a 180 from the song going on now.

Which means they really don't believe their own argument, but they just the make themselves believe in it right now to fit the situation. Blue pill or Red anyone.

What's funny is, the short record times can work for me, but I'm a very niche sector and I know it. I don't think others should except it just cause I can at this point.

I know two people that came back from India, 80+ hours in two weeks of filming in Digibeta from Delhi to the tip of Trivandrum. I can site another dozen off the top of my head like this that P2 is not going to work at this current stage if they couldn't have at-least a pocket full. Rethinking your work flow is marketing/PR BS.

I like Jan, I think it's great she comes here, but I have been working production since I was Fifteen, that's been 21 years. So I happen to know a little about this industry. She is product manager. My friends at Panavision never try to tell me my needs or how things should work on a set. But when it comes to their gear I listen 110%. There is a line to respect and I respect that line.

People including Jan keep saying filmmakers are used to 4 minute loads. That's such bull%*$#

Everyone I know hate's the limited magazine loads, but it's physics. You can only jam so much film in a mag. Panavision has spent a ton on R&D over the years to build larger mag load canisters, but it's a matter of physics in the end and not because people like have short run times. Reloading sucks.

The one thing everyone loves in Hollywood about HD is the large record times even if they hate HD imagery, it's always "" I like the long record times and quick and easy change out ".

Panasonic/Jan uses a film mag issue that people have no choice but to live with in film industry to justify another bad issue of limited P2 Media size. This is and never would be a plus....


Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/ARRFILMS




[QUOTE=Barry_GreenWhat I'm saying is, people have to stop trying to think that you need a bunch of P2 cards, or you'll never be able to understand how the camera works. It is a different way of working. And what you'll likely end up doing is using hard disks as offline storage for the P2 cards. Hard disks are less expensive, but they are not nearly (not NEARLY) as rugged, indestructible, durable, reliable, and basically as bomb-proof as P2 cards are. So you don't use hard disks for acquisition. You use them for what they're excellent at -- storage and editing. You use the indestructible, reliable, never-drop-a-frame, heat-proof, cold-proof, shock-proof P2 cards for what they're good at, acquisition, and you use the hard disk for what it's good for -- cheap storage.

I would *love* to see the camera support direct firewire recording, where it could use an off-the-shelf firewire hard disk. For live event recording under controlled conditions, that might be ideal. That would beat the living snot, pricewise, out of using FireStores. A $40 external firewire disk is, what, $60 or so, vs. $800 for the FireStore?[/QUOTE]




<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : This is the response I posted at DVXUser:

Yes, the cost difference is there. Obviously. But there's also a cost difference between a bicycle and a Mercedes. Drop the firestore once, and see how it affects your cost ratio. Or shoot in the desert, and see what the heat and dust do to the firestore, etc.

You simply do not buy dozens of cards for the P2 camera, that's not how someone uses it. Throwing around numbers like $76,500 would probably qualify as spreading "F.U.D." (what Chris Hurd calls Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt).

That's just not how you work with the P2 camera.

Those numbers are about as silly as saying that a bicycle can be ridden across the country for free, whereas the Mercedes would cost $30,000,000 to drive across the country, because it can only drive for 300 miles before it's empty, and so then you need a new Mercedes to go the next 300 miles. You don't do that. You buy some cheap gas and you keep going.

I'm not arguing that hard disks aren't cheaper. What I'm saying is, people have to stop trying to think that you need a bunch of P2 cards, or you'll never be able to understand how the camera works. It is a different way of working. And what you'll likely end up doing is using hard disks as offline storage for the P2 cards. Hard disks are less expensive, but they are not nearly (not NEARLY) as rugged, indestructible, durable, reliable, and basically as bomb-proof as P2 cards are. So you don't use hard disks for acquisition. You use them for what they're excellent at -- storage and editing. You use the indestructible, reliable, never-drop-a-frame, heat-proof, cold-proof, shock-proof P2 cards for what they're good at, acquisition, and you use the hard disk for what it's good for -- cheap storage.

I would *love* to see the camera support direct firewire recording, where it could use an off-the-shelf firewire hard disk. For live event recording under controlled conditions, that might be ideal. That would beat the living snot, pricewise, out of using FireStores. A 40gb external firewire disk is, what, $60 or so, vs. $800 for the FireStore? -->>>

Nice post Michael. I don't think that the mantra of "that's what the film folk are used to" should be interpreted as

"The filmies are used to short running times, and so should you" I think it means, "Well yeah it sucks, but people can manage with it, so it's not all doom and gloom"

If all the hype bears fruit, then considering what you're getting with this camera, the tradeoff may be worth it. Then again it might not...Is HDV good enough for people, and if so, the media is a lot cheaper and the Panasonic will suffer.


Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas :
People including Jan keep saying filmmakers are used to 4 minute loads. That's such bull%*$#
-->>>

Also Michael.......for those people who spend big $$ on film shoots with 4-minute film loads......How many do they have in the film truck?? A lot more then 2 or 3 I would imagine.

I think the new Pany camera is cool....but the P2 thing is an argument that can't be won today. Not until they become abundant, but when they do....that camera is gonna be #1 for sure!

However, here's a narrative film/movie shooting scenario I am afraid of.....Say for instance you find someone with 4-gig P2 cards on sale at 75% off....that's $500 bucks....THAT'S STILL FREAKIN' EXPENSIVE for only 4 minutes of footage. And what if after shooting 4 looOOOOooong minutes (lol) of footage (roughly 2-3 takes of just one scene of your 100+ page 150 scene movie script) what do you do???
1. give the crew a 5-10 break while you download to your laptop each time:
-----a. laptop = money$
-----b. time = money$
2. buy 2 or 3 P2 cards to rotate for continuous shooting:
-----a. laptop = money$
-----b. extra (intelligent and computer savvy) crew member to handle the job = money$
-----c. extra P2 cards = money$
-----d. time = money$ (you can forget about "HOLD THE ROLL" and fast shooting
3. buy 3 hours of P2 Cards
-----a. LOL

and......what if.....the laptop hard drive crashes?????
think about it guys, that's not far fetched. you will be placing your entire project, setups, cast who has to leave and can never return to re-shoot on a single western digital, maxtor, or seagate hard drive....and praying it will not crash on you and that it will work 100% for your ENTIRE DAY of shooting. If you think you have time to capture P2 card footage "AND" perform a backup in the field....LOL

man

*shaking my head* This Panasonic camera looks like it will be the SHIZNIT!!! but it's that P2 thing that has me concerned....that's all. Nothing else. All other bases are covered.

If Panasonc just up and said "Make all 4-gig P2 Cards $100 bucks and our new 8-gig P2 cards only $150 bucks"........ Can you just imagine what that would do to the HD world??? I hope they do it, cause the camera is BAD ASS!

- ShannonRawls.com

>Michael Pappas :
So one day years from now when Jan tells someone "" why not buy a bunch of P2 cards because there cheap" " I will have to remind her that she professed that no one needs a lot of them because you must re-think your work flow.

Michael, If you were working with the AJ-SPX800, I would say fill the camera with cards and add a few more. You don't need a lot of them, you need how many it will take to get the job done some will need more, some will need less. Figure out your workflow and budget acccordingly.


>I'll make a bet that the Panasonic production philosophy of you don't need a lot of P2 is convenient to back up its high price issue. When P2 cards are dirt cheap, that part of the work flow philosophy will suddenly disappear from the Panasonic mantra, and all of a sudden they will sing the song " P2 cards are cheap so buy many" a 180 from the song going on now.

I wish they were not so expensive, but I don't think it would change the essence of the workflow. I think having just a couple more than what the camera holds is all one would need.

>I know two people that came back from India, 80+ hours in two weeks of filming in Digibeta from Delhi to the tip of Trivandrum. I can site another dozen off the top of my head like this that P2 is not going to work at this current stage if they couldn't have at-least a pocket full.

Actually I can see how this one would work, the long event continuous record is a little more of a challange with cards. The trip to Delhi would be a lot lighter trip without tape. And move to the hard drives for back up. And since it is DVCPRO50 quaility, then on the 4GB card I have 8 minutes, and on the 8GB card which will be available when the HVX200 comes out will give me 16 minutes per card. Offload, back up and continue to shoot. And then when I get back to the states, I don't have to digitize, I can start making decisions. Actually they might have even started that back in Delhi.

>I like Jan, I think it's great she comes here, but I have been working production since I was Fifteen, that's been 21 years. So I happen to know a little about this industry. She is product manager.

So what does that mean? I have been a working professional in this business since 1974. And a student before that. I have a degree in Media Systems Design and Utilization, and a Media Production degree. I have been on the management side, the production side, the sales side, the technical, how does it work side, I too know a little about this industry. I have threaded up 2" Quad Machines and 1/2" reel to reel VTRs non-EIAJ. I am a Product Line Business Manager because I understand this business and the marketplace. I have worked with film cameras, and tube cameras and chip cameras. I have sold NLEs, cameras and VTRs. I have worked with some of the best and brightest in this industry. I do not come to my position without experience and knowledge.

>My friends at Panavision never try to tell me my needs or how things should work on a set. But when it comes to their gear I listen 110%. There is a line to respect and I respect that line.

I am not telling you your needs or how things should work on a set, I am making a suggestion as to how they could work with my gear. You then have the choice of saying, "yeah, that works for me" or saying, "no, that doesn't" and go buy something else. You asked how do I work with this, I offer a suggestion and then you diss me for the suggestion saying that I am telling you how to work? What is that?

>People including Jan keep saying filmmakers are used to 4 minute loads. That's such bull%*$#

It is a parallel that is easy enough to understand. And it is only today that there is a 4 gig card, by August there will be an 8 gig card, by NAB next year, there will be in the offing a 16 gig card and so on and so on.

>Everyone I know hates the limited magazine loads, but it's physics. You can only jam so much film in a mag. Panavision has spent a ton on R&D over the years to build larger mag load canisters, but it's a matter of physics in the end and not because people like have short run times. Reloading sucks.

And the point is that with the P2 the load increases. Unlike film, where the laws of physics cannot change, Moore's law is about change.

> The one thing everyone loves in Hollywood about HD is the large record times even if they hate HD imagery, it's always "" I like the long record times and quick and easy change out ".

The longest load in the DVCPRO HD camera is now 30 minutes.
If it were me and I wanted to work with this new camera, I probably would have 1 or 2 more cards than what the camera can hold. Just like I do with my digital still cameras. I have figured out my work flow with the still camera and I know how many pictures I generally shoot on a given outing. The point is that it is about changing the way you think about it.

Oh and Focus Enhancements is a P2 Partner.

Best regards,

Jan

Michael, don't worry mate. I'm sure there will be a tape drive in there too so you can record good old DVCPRO (And 50?), then just worry about P2 if you want to shoot HD. Or get a Firestore. Basically anything to avoid HDV ;) OK, the new JVC does sound nice, with it's true progressive....


Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : ... on the 8GB card which will be available when the HVX200 comes ...

... by August there will be an 8 gig card-->>>

Does this mean the HVX will also be available in August?

There is also one big difference from the "change film mag" metaphor: you don't have to stop filming while changing cards.

August seems resonable....

Kevin, I think Jan spilt the beans inadvertently :) Let's hope!

Maybe :). Just because an 8gig card comes out in August doesn't say a thing about the cameras release date. There are other P2 cameras in use at the moment which would use the 8gig card.

OH NO! Too much spec...u....la..tion....Head ex...plo...ding!

August...Hmm that's a wee ways off yet. Longer than I thought, for sure...Please let's hope not. Will have to keep soldiering on with my XM2 for a while yet!

Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley
Does this mean the HVX will also be available in August? -->>>

Sorry Kevin, the camera being available and the 8GB card being avilable are two different events, pretty much unrelated but other than the larger card will be available at the time of this camera's delivery.

Sorry to get hopes up there.

Jan

"These are approximate figures:
Mission to obtain 3 hours as Firestore would for around $800 dollars.
P2 Media 4gig $1,700 dollars"

For that same $1,700, I could buy a really nice laptop, and record more than even the Firestore... and buy a Starbucks latte. True, the laptop is a bit bulky, but you would need to have one anyways, to dump the P2 cards. So why the need for the cards? It would make *practical* sense to go straight to the laptop.

For that matter, laptop prices are coming down, and you can buy a nice laptop for a little less than the Firestore, and hold as much... and e mail, kill aliens, and surf DVInfo.net.

But, I still don't have the warm fuzzies without the footage safely on tape. Hard drives have lost too much of my footage, but I still have the master safely tucked away.

A palm size laptop would be nice. I guess Apple has to come up with a IPodG4 with fold out 6x9 high-res screen.




<<<-- Originally posted by Keith Forman : "These are approximate figures:
Mission to obtain 3 hours as Firestore would for around $800 dollars.
P2 Media 4gig $1,700 dollars"

For that same $1,700, I could buy a really nice laptop, and record more than even the Firestore... and buy a Starbucks latte. True, the laptop is a bit bulky, but you would need to have one anyways, to dump the P2 cards. So why the need for the cards? It would make *practical* sense to go straight to the laptop.

For that matter, laptop prices are coming down, and you can buy a nice laptop for a little less than the Firestore, and hold as much... and e mail, kill aliens, and surf DVInfo.net.

But, I still don't have the warm fuzzies without the footage safely on tape. Hard drives have lost too much of my footage, but I still have the master safely tucked away. -->>>

I don't get what people are so worried about.

1) Buy 2 8GB P2 cards. Never have to buy tape again. Ever. Save lots of money in the long run.

2) Get a laptop. You have to edit the footage somewhere, might as well make it a laptop. 2 birds, 1 stone.

3) Shoot the scene. As soon as card #1 is full, repalce with card #2, lose about 25 seconds (this assumes there's only 1 card slot, so if there's more than one slot then you lose ZERO footage).

4) While card #2 is recording, insert card #1 in PCMCIA slot on laptop and transfer the contents to AN EXTERNAL USB2 OR FIREWIRE HARDDISK ($189 for 250GB LaCie HDD) connected to the laptop.

5) Rinse and repeat steps 3-4 as needed.

5a) If archival safety is a concern, then buy 2 or 3 250GB Hard Disks and back-up transfered footage from Disk #1 to Disks 2 & 3 in a matter of minutes. You get an instant clone of the original footage. How often are 3 hard disks going to fail at the same time? Exactly.

Heck, LaCie offers the 1TB Hard Disk for only $999. Exactly how much HD footage are you planning on shooting for a given project?

Tapeless aquisition is the best thing to happen to video since the invention of FireWire. I, for one, can't wait to never have to capture one more tape of footage. Instant editing, right on the set if needs be. Heaven.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jaime Valles : I don't get what people are so worried about.

1) Buy 2 8GB P2 cards. Never have to buy tape again. Ever. Save lots of money in the long run.
-->>>

I agree and disagree - you won't *HAVE* to buy tape again, but you'll most certainly buy P2 cards again.

If you go and buy 2 8GB cards, at US$1500 each? And get what, 8 minutes of HD on each. In a year there will be 16GB or 32GB and then people will see that they can store more on it and go "Awesome, I'll get one of those".

It all comes down to how many $$ you earn, based on how much you spend per unit of storage. If you shoot so much, that you'd spend the same price in tape over a year as you would on cards, then why not go cards - money will no longer factor into it, you'll only be worried about convenience.

For the less regular shooters, an 8 GB might be all you can afford by selling your nana, and you have no choice but to put up with all the hassles that would be for anything longform. Then come next year when bigger cards come out, at the same price as the old ones (Say 16gb at 8gb price) you won't buy cause if you'd been using tape you might have shot a coupleof hundred bucks worth only in the year so it doesn't pay for itself.

Not saying Panasonic should cater to us poor buggers, the money earners are who they want, I just don't think people who buy P2 will not buy any other media gain. People will keep buying new P2's until they hit their "desired recording limit" Which could be 4 minutes for filmies, 8 or 16 for news guys and an hour or more for long form events.

Aaron

And, I've got to throw this out there again -- who says P2 will be the only recording medium? People are getting really hung up on the cost of P2 cards (which will plummet as demand increases), but who says there won't be hard disk storage? We already know Jan's said that FocusInfo (FireStore) is a P2 partner company. But it may be better than that -- someone may come up with a plug-in hard-disk controller that works in a P2 slot and lets you use off-the-shelf firewire hard disks (or USB2 hard disks). Or maybe the camera will allow that directly. We don't know.

All we know is a few things it will have. We don't yet know anything that it won't have. There may be a tape drive in there for DV25. There may be hard disk controllers. There may be an optical drive in there, for all we know.

I'm not saying there is, but I'm saying this: look at the philosophy Panasonic's using: "you want 1080? You want 720? You want 60i, or 60p, or 24p, or 30p? We'll give it ALL to you."

So who's to say they won't apply the same philosophy to recording? "You want tape? You want high-def on a memory card? You want hard disk? We'll give it ALL to you." (of course we know there won't be any HD recorded to tape, they've clarified that, but the rest of it could still be possible).

I'm not saying they did this, or implemented that. I'm just saying that until we do know what they did or didn't do, getting worked up over limitations seems kind of counterproductive, because we don't yet know what limitations there are (or will be). We know a few things the camera WILL do, but as far as I know, other than saying "no HD recorded on tape", I don't think they've spelled out anything that the camera WON'T do.

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen : I agree and disagree - you won't *HAVE* to buy tape again, but you'll most certainly buy P2 cards again. If you go and buy 2 8GB cards, at US$1500 each? And get what, 8 minutes of HD on each. In a year there will be 16GB or 32GB and then people will see that they can store more on it and go "Awesome, I'll get one of those". -->>>

One word: EBAY

Dude #1: "Hey, That new 32GB card looks great! 2 of these would be perfect for my next wedding gig! Let me sell my 3 8GB cards online and already have some money toward the (much cheaper at this point) 32GB cards!"

Dude #2: "Hey, somebody put up 3 8GB cards on sale on eBay for about $300 total! That'd be great for my next indie flick!"

I just don't get what the hangup is. If you've got 2 8GB cards, you theoretically don't need any more, ever. Nobody's forcing you to buy the 700GB card for $15,000. Is it cool? Heck yeah. Is it an absolute necessity? Nope. Not at all. I have a 32MB CF card for my digital camera, and a 256MB CF card. I could buy a 2GB CF card right now, but I just don't need it. I can control myself.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jaime Valles :
4) While card #2 is recording, insert card #1 in PCMCIA slot on laptop and transfer the contents to AN EXTERNAL USB2 OR FIREWIRE HARDDISK ($189 for 250GB LaCie HDD) connected to the laptop.

5) Rinse and repeat steps 3-4 as needed.

5a) If archival safety is a concern, then buy 2 or 3 250GB Hard Disks and back-up transfered footage from Disk #1 to Disks 2 & 3 in a matter of minutes.
-->>>

Can we play Dominos and sip Marguaritas between takes too??

I don't know what type of set you are describing, but FAST PACED is what I normally see, and swapping cards EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN' TAKE is absolutely NOT HAPPENING!

Just yesterday, my director was shooting 6 minute scenes!!! with dual camera coverage!!! 4 takes in a row!! And the shot called for it! As we were doing this, I was thinking in my head about DVINFO and the P2 discussion and how it will hold up on set.....i cracked a private smile and thanked the lord for MiniDV tape!

because P2 CARD SWAPPING WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HANDLE THAT....swapping out cards and all that, no way Jose! Well, maybe if we had $6,800.00 in P2 cards and paid an extra person to handle it and bought a laptop to do it, it would have.

I mean, it sounds easy in this message board....but take it to the real world of indie low budget filmmaking (which this camera is targeting by the way)and give it a try......not happening.

Now, I like what Barry is talkin' about.... "Who says P2 is the only way??" If I could snap a 80gb laptop hard drive in a FW case to this camera, then, ohhhhhhh boy! *smile*

- Shannon W. Rawls

Well, Shannon ofcourse has a point. What if you want to do such a shot like the opening shot of Snake Eyes, or the Player? Shots that take 12 minutes?

But, there will be an answer, I'm sure, somebody will come eventually with another solution to have a longer recording time.

Hi Mathieu Ghekiere!

Since you are talking about a movie, in this case Snake eye's. Well that's a 24fps production. No problem....

There are at least two slots on the HVX200 and if your filming at 720p 24fps and you have 2 4gig P2's loaded, then that is going to give you around 13 minutes on each one. With two in the cam you have 26 minutes. Not a problem. And since you said 12 minutes, one P2 4gig will do.

That's great news isn't! Well for your example at least.


Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/ARRFILMS






<<<-- Originally posted by Mathieu Ghekiere : Well, Shannon ofcourse has a point. What if you want to do such a shot like the opening shot of Snake Eyes, or the Player? Shots that take 12 minutes?

But, there will be an answer, I'm sure, somebody will come eventually with another solution to have a longer recording time. -->>>

While everything Shannon says is true...I would say that if you want to shoot on P2, then you would have to swap cards, that's the reality of it.

So, you're right, you wouldn't be able to shoot the way you were shooting....

Then again, you probably weren't shooting 1080/24 DVCProHD. So, there are compromises to be made on either side.


Then again, we still don't know what else Panasonic has in store for NAB.

<<<-- Originally posted by Shannon Rawls : I don't know what type of set you are describing, but FAST PACED is what I normally see, and swapping cards EVERY SINGLE FREAKIN' TAKE is absolutely NOT HAPPENING! ...because P2 CARD SWAPPING WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO HANDLE THAT....swapping out cards and all that, no way Jose! Well, maybe if we had $6,800.00 in P2 cards and paid an extra person to handle it and bought a laptop to do it, it would have.-->>>

It has already been confirmed that by the time the HVX comes out there will be 8GB P2 cards available. Assuming there's 2 P2 slots in the HVX, that gives you about 16 uninterrupted minutes of 1080p24 (if my math is correct.) Unless you're doing, as you said, a shot like in The Player, or Snake Eyes (which definitely would require a direct-to-disk-firestore-type-thing) then you should be fine with just P2.

Honestly, when I've been on a set, most of the time is not spent with the cameras rolling. Not by a long shot. What takes up time is setting up lights, blocking the actors, and framing the shot. Once everything is set, you start rolling, and 30 to 40 seconds later you cut. You do it a couple more times, and then you spend another 30 minutes setting up the next shot. Rarely does one shot take more than a few minutes of footage. Very rarely will it last over 3 or 4 minutes. Other than The Player, Snake Eyes, and maybe Strange Days (great opening scene!), few hollywood films ever attempt a big 12 minute shot. And that's with millions of dollars behind it.

I appreciate that we're all here trying to pull a Spielberg, and this camera will probably get us closer to that kind of visual quality than ever before. But please keep in mind that this is an "under $10,000" camera. Really, if you're at a point where you're making a feature film with an HVX, you've either a) got enough funding to buy 5 or 6 of the 8GB cards, or b) you're a struggling indie filmmaker with barely enough moolah for 2 of them, in which case you will put up with the process of swapping cards every few takes, because you know the quality of the footage you're recording is superb.

This, of course, applies mostly to people making narrative films, such as myself. Event videography is an entirely different animal with it's own set of rules and pitfalls, none of which I'm qualified to address.

the argument of moving data from P2 to a laptop is silly.
Why would you do that ? because the laptop has a hard disk with big capacity ! so put the hardisk in the camera.....
Afraid of lost data ? put two hard disk in the camera .
Since new hard disk come with a anti-bump system, they becomes very reliable even hard environment.
And after all if the HDD is supposed to assume some hard treatement while being in the camera, i think you will have to worry more for the camera than for the hardisk.
2.5 inches HDD comes with 100gig capacity these days, so no comment.
imagine 10 hours of HD in one shot.

Maybe I'm not reading this graph properly, but it would seem to me that these 2.5" HDD are not able to sustain 100Mb/s transfer rates:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/display/9-25-hdd_5.html

GB

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Hi Mathieu Ghekiere!

Since you are talking about a movie, in this case Snake eye's. Well that's a 24fps production. No problem....

There are at least two slots on the HVX200 and if your filming at 720p 24fps and you have 2 4gig P2's loaded, then that is going to give you around 13 minutes on each one. With two in the cam you have 26 minutes. Not a problem. And since you said 12 minutes, one P2 4gig will do.

That's great news isn't! Well for your example at least.


Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/ARRFILMS -->>> -->>>

Well, yeah it's great news, but I don't have the money for the cam anyway :-p But maybe I'll rob a bank or something ;-)
I think some third party maybe, will come with a hard disk that will give you the ability to record longer times, I don't worry so much about the whole P2 thing, I think panasonic and other companies will realise they would have to come with a solution at one time, and I'm sure they will, even if it isn't for right away.
So I still have time to rob my bank ;-)

Eh, I think some of you guys are being a little childish about this. I wouldn't necessarily compare my work to something such as "The Player" and I wouldn't even say that my work may some day resemble another movie. Most of us here on DVinfo.net wouldn't find a reason to even attempt a long take exceeding 4 minutes unless:

1. It's an effects shot, such as blowing something up.

2. It's a one time deal shot, such as a natural weather occurence or a current occurence like a family of bears walking right past you.

3. It's an artistic shot that expresses something about the movie.

4. It's a documentary and it calls for a long take.

Other than that, there's nothing to complain about. Event videographers, sports guys, and documentarists, this camera can work for you right away, but you will need to buy a couple more P2 cards than an indie filmmaker would. P2 can shoot continuously, all you have to do is swap cards out and put them back in. When I think about it, 3 cards is ideal:

Card 1 is full, continue shooting on Card 2 and offload Card 1, replace with Card 3, Card 2 gets full, continue shooting on Card 3 and offload Card 2, replace with Card 1, Card 3 gets full, continue shooting with Card 1 and offload Card 3, replace with Card 2, ect. ect.

The answer also lies in rental houses. If the shot is something like blowing up a car and many angles are needed, use your 1 camera that you own and rent as many P2 cards and additional cameras as needed for the shot. That should be only one day's charge. Not much at all.

Another thing to do is have your actors/actresses run through the scene and practice as many times as possible to cut down bloopers/flubs/burfers/screw ups/ or whatever as much as possible. Yes, it takes longer initially, but it saves both time and money in the long run because what's better, dumping an entire P2 card of bad takes or dumping a P2 card with one or two bad takes with a good and terrific take? Happens in film all the time and Jackie Chan complains about it all the time, "You'a wase owa film!" in all the bloopers.

Finally, if you know what you're doing with movies, then you would know that long takes bore the audience to death most of the time, their eyes get tired even if they see Harrison Ford in the same position for 3 minutes straight, no cuts at all. Fast cuts, smooth cuts, whatever cut you do is necessary to keep the audience's attention and to, most importantly, keep them awake. "The Player" got away with this because it was an interesting introduction to the movie and it doubled as an opening credits shot, so the audience was kept in attention thanks in part to the credit flashes. Forget the camera, how many of you would actually take the time and money to rent enough microphones and block every single little thing in one long take perfectly so that everything matched exactly how it was supposed to? "The Player" though cinematically great, had some pretty bad audio in my opinion and most of it was during that beginning shot. See? Even the pros mess up sometimes.

I for one, appreciate the limb that Panasonic is climbing on to with this new camera. They're not stupid, they knew many would be cheesed off about the P2 capacities ATM and some would even be turned off by the camera. I'm sure poor Jan is having to tell the higher ups about people complaining about the small shooting times of P2 on almost a daily basis. I just don't think many of you are taking it in that we now have 720p and 1080i both with 60p and 24p modes all in one freaking camera! How can you not be excited!? Imagine what can be achieved now that we have a truly progressive digital camera in our prosumer hands. $10k on the spot? I'm sold. Less? Gravy.

P2 is going to be the camera's only media option for HD, if you can't accept and deal with the format's limitations, then don't buy it now, wait a few years until something better comes and then buy it off of eBay with a smathering of P2 cards and some cheapo WA and Telephoto lenses and a tripod to go with it. If you can, then things are going to get easier from day one with support, falling media prices, and admiration for being a pioneer. Plus, you'll have the most kick arse camera on the block that will last you for years no matter what you're doing. Whether you can handle this revolutionary camera or not is up to you.

As for me, I'll see you guys at NAB.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Eh, I think some of you guys are being a little childish about this. I wouldn't necessarily compare my work to something such as "The Player" and I wouldn't even say that my work may some day resemble another movie. Most of us here on DVinfo.net wouldn't find a reason to even attempt a long take exceeding 4 minutes unless:

1. It's an effects shot, such as blowing something up.

2. It's a one time deal shot, such as a natural weather occurence or a current occurence like a family of bears walking right past you.

3. It's an artistic shot that expresses something about the movie.

4. It's a documentary and it calls for a long take.
-->>>

I have to disagree: why not? It's not because our movie isn't as good as a big budget movie, that we wouldn't want to make a movie with shots over 4 minutes long. It's not because most of Hollywood action movies have fast editing, other movies also have this editing.
I agree what you are saying, that people have to lighten up and be very happy about this camera, but that doesn't mean you can just say: because we don't make movies as good as The Player, we wouldn't need to make such long shots.
I for one, won't decide such a thing for somebody else, I make my movie, he makes his, and if he wants a shot that's more than 4 minutes long, that's his decision, and I think he should have the means to do it.
I don't think you can just decide that for other people. Let other people decide what they wanna do.

But as I said: I don't worry too much about it, a solution will come eventually.

"I make my movie, he makes his, and if he wants a shot that's more than 4 minutes long, that's his decision, and I think he should have the means to do it."

I completely agree.
And those who require longer recording times do have the means to do it. They have HDCAM, DVCProHD tape, XDCam based cameras, HDV, DigiBeta, BetaSP, DVCPro50, DVCPro, DV.... you get the point.

A year ago pretty much everyone here would have thought it was a prank if someone said we'd have a 1080/24P camera for under 10,000. I for one am thrilled. Am I a bit concerned about the space and price of P2 cards? Of course. But, I don't understand why people seem to be 'freaking out' about it so much.

We have about a week until NAB.
All questions will be answered there.

After that, it's up to each and every individual to decide on their own what they can and cannot work with. For those who feel they have to shoot in 1080/24P without the compression of HDV...then they'll find a way to make it work. For those who have to shoot longer takes, well...they still have every single other camera system available to them.

This camera is only adding one option for aquisition...it's not taking any of our current options away.

P2, like every single other recording media and format out there, is not meant to be the answer for everything. It is the answer for some, and not for others.

In eight days at least we'll be able to debate specifics, as opposed to hypotheticals. I'm pretty sure Panasonic knows what they're doing. For all we know, after next week these issues may be completely irrelevant.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mathieu Ghekiere : <<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Eh, I think some of you guys are being a little childish about this. I wouldn't necessarily compare my work to something such as "The Player" and I wouldn't even say that my work may some day resemble another movie. Most of us here on DVinfo.net wouldn't find a reason to even attempt a long take exceeding 4 minutes unless:

1. It's an effects shot, such as blowing something up.

2. It's a one time deal shot, such as a natural weather occurence or a current occurence like a family of bears walking right past you.

3. It's an artistic shot that expresses something about the movie.

4. It's a documentary and it calls for a long take.
-->>>

I have to disagree: why not? It's not because our movie isn't as good as a big budget movie, that we wouldn't want to make a movie with shots over 4 minutes long. It's not because most of Hollywood action movies have fast editing, other movies also have this editing.
I agree what you are saying, that people have to lighten up and be very happy about this camera, but that doesn't mean you can just say: because we don't make movies as good as The Player, we wouldn't need to make such long shots.
I for one, won't decide such a thing for somebody else, I make my movie, he makes his, and if he wants a shot that's more than 4 minutes long, that's his decision, and I think he should have the means to do it.
I don't think you can just decide that for other people. Let other people decide what they wanna do.

But as I said: I don't worry too much about it, a solution will come eventually. -->>>



I agree Mathieu. I was just using "The Player" as an example because some people were talking about it a couple of posts back and "what if" they wanted to shoot something like it, that was my response. In most cases, nobody would shoot an enormously long scene like that because it takes a lot of work to pull off effectively. I didn't mean that nobody couldn't do so, it's just that it wouldn't come up in most cases. It's possible though, it just requires some P2 card switching. Sorry I didn't make that clear.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Sorry I didn't make that clear. -->>>

No problem :-)

<<<-- Originally posted by Luis Caffesse :
This camera is only adding one option for aquisition...it's not taking any of our current options away.
-->>>

Huh, what do you mean?? It's taking away affordable, long running-time, long shelf-life, available at your neighborhood 24-hour drug store MINIDV TAPE! That's now GONE for HD recording.

Only to be replaced by grossly expensive, short running-time, long shelf-life, available only through special order-shipping-and wait time P2 CARDS!

_______________

- People, this is no way the same comparison of bulky VHS tapes vs. versatile DVD-R discs. Hell, DVD-R's are cheaper then fat bulky VHS tapes for me.
- This is no way the same comparison of small & slow 1.44mb Floppy Discs vs. versatile, large data capacity and cheap from Day #1 CD-R's that replaced em'.
- This is no way the same comparison of my old 35mm camera that required rolls of film at only 24 pictures per roll that required expensive developing that AT MINIMUM took an hour to HOPE&PRAY that i got a good shot on vs. versatile Digital Cameras with lcd screens and the cheap from Day #1 Compact Flash cards that they use.

We are talking cheap from Day #1 $3.00 each 1/hour minidv tapes that are so cheap, instead of re-using the tape, you just put it away in your closet for viewing at anytime in the future vs. only 13/minute expensive as hell from Day #1 and still expensive as hell on April 10th, 2005! $1,700.00 P2 Cards that require you to save your footage on expensive hard drives (in comparison to CD-R's like Digicameras use to store photos).

Dude, we can talk about this till the cows come home.....but the current AND foreseeable near future P2 CARD option is a losing argument for more people then not. Yes, I'm sure P2 will work for some...but for MOST, it wont, and I say that with all assurity and to argue that statement would just be.......um.......just to argue with me.

over 1 hour of HD on a Tape = $3 bucks
only 52 minutes of HD on P2 Card = $6800 bucks

That's not a guess, thats not an assumption, thats not a hypothesis...THAT'S A FACT!

"Chage your workflow" you say "Prices will come down" you say "It's the future" you say...
man.... if someone pays me $6787.00 bucks to remain old fashioned...then everybody here get used to callin' me Grandpa!

How long is it going to take for P2 cards to get near $3 bucks each??? THink about it, we pay $75 bucks for a 1 gig CompactFlash Card that will hold HOURS AND HOURS AND HOURS of CD Quality Audio, or THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of high-resolution digital photos....and some of us even complain about $75 bucks and do bargain shopping trying to find a 1gig CF card for only $60 bucks!!!! LOL

If that's the case, and that's what we are used to in this Digital Media era.....then WHAT in the HE-Doulbe Hockey Sticks makes you think I want to spend over ONE THOUSAND DOLLARS for a measly 13 minutes of footage????

man puhleeeeeeeze.

Panasonic better surprise me with some type of 80gig+ hard drive solution, or they can hang it up on that P2 mess.

- ShannonRawls.com

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis :
Finally, if you know what you're doing with movies, then you would know that long takes bore the audience to death most of the time, their eyes get tired even if they see Harrison Ford in the same position for 3 minutes straight, no cuts at all. Fast cuts, smooth cuts, whatever cut you do is necessary to keep the audience's attention and to, most importantly, keep them awake. "The Player" got away with this because it was an interesting introduction to the movie and it doubled as an opening credits shot, so the audience was kept in attention thanks in part to the credit flashes. Forget the camera, how many of you would actually take the time and money to rent enough microphones and block every single little thing in one long take perfectly so that everything matched exactly how it was supposed to? "The Player" though cinematically great, had some pretty bad audio in my opinion and most of it was during that beginning shot. See? Even the pros mess up sometimes. -->>>

I guess simply because it's a blanket statement, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

There was an extremely long steadicam shot in Kill Bill Vol. 1. Say what you like about Tarantino, but I was at least 5 minutes into the shot when I realized that he hadn't cut in a while. I was so wrapped up in the movie that I didn't notice. I actually ran it back to make sure I didn't just blink at the wrong time. You can have some amazingly long shots that work... you just have to do them right. Is it a good idea to do it all the time? Of course not, that would ignore a little thing called pacing... But it can work.

The movie I shot last winter (Headed for TV) we used plenty of 400' 35mm loads.
They run less than 4 minutes. About $60,000 dollars spent on film.
Total camera rentals, (4x35mm cameras) another 15 grand.

Shooting 1080 or 720 for under $10,000 + few thousand bucks in reusable cards,... priceless.

(But you know, like it says under my name:)

Man, who cares about P2 for long running times. If you want some mega long shot for something, use a hard disk. I will bet my house that this will have some sort of HardDisk support, even if that is just Firewire out and we can use a Firestore.


Also, the described workflow of shooting, swapping, offloading, repeating won't work if you need continuous shots. You will bump your camera for sure.


Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : <<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis :
Finally, if you know what you're doing with movies, then you would know that long takes bore the audience to death most of the time, their eyes get tired even if they see Harrison Ford in the same position for 3 minutes straight, no cuts at all. Fast cuts, smooth cuts, whatever cut you do is necessary to keep the audience's attention and to, most importantly, keep them awake. "The Player" got away with this because it was an interesting introduction to the movie and it doubled as an opening credits shot, so the audience was kept in attention thanks in part to the credit flashes. Forget the camera, how many of you would actually take the time and money to rent enough microphones and block every single little thing in one long take perfectly so that everything matched exactly how it was supposed to? "The Player" though cinematically great, had some pretty bad audio in my opinion and most of it was during that beginning shot. See? Even the pros mess up sometimes. -->>>

I guess simply because it's a blanket statement, I'm gonna have to disagree with you.

There was an extremely long steadicam shot in Kill Bill Vol. 1. Say what you like about Tarantino, but I was at least 5 minutes into the shot when I realized that he hadn't cut in a while. I was so wrapped up in the movie that I didn't notice. I actually ran it back to make sure I didn't just blink at the wrong time. You can have some amazingly long shots that work... you just have to do them right. Is it a good idea to do it all the time? Of course not, that would ignore a little thing called pacing... But it can work. -->>>


Good grief, Kevin, ^_^ I didn't say long cuts didn't work! =D It's just that most of the time, they don't work or don't add anything that the average Joe would get. Long shots work when done right, like you said, I agree, man... maybe I should have just left that part out. =)

Geoff..

Well, if your needs are 24fps 720p then all you need is a drive that can sustain at least 7 mega bytes per second.

Since DVCPRO HD 720P at 24fps is 40mbs ( that is mega bits per second ) which translates into a ball park of 6.5 mega bytes per second there will not be any issues at all.

Ofcourse 100 mega bits per second DVCPRO HD is 14 mega bytes per second. We will have to see. I don't belive there will be any issue either.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com




<<<-- Originally posted by R Geoff Baker : Maybe I'm not reading this graph properly, but it would seem to me that these 2.5" HDD are not able to sustain 100Mb/s transfer rates:
http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/storage/display/9-25-hdd_5.html

GB -->>>

"Since DVCPRO HD 720P at 24fps is 40mbs ( that is mega bits per second ) which translates into a ball park of 6.5 mega bytes per second there will not be any issues at all.

Ofcourse 100 mega bits per second DVCPRO HD is 14 mega bytes per second"

Actually, 40mbs would equal 5MB/s

And 100mbs would equal 12.5MB/s


8 bits in a Byte.
40 / 8 = 5
100 / 8 = 12.5

Or am I missing something?

Luis.......

I like your numbers even better!


<<<-- Originally posted by Luis Caffesse : "Since DVCPRO HD 720P at 24fps is 40mbs ( that is mega bits per second ) which translates into a ball park of 6.5 mega bytes per second there will not be any issues at all.

Ofcourse 100 mega bits per second DVCPRO HD is 14 mega bytes per second"

Actually, 40mbs would equal 5MB/s

And 100mbs would equal 12.5MB/s


8 bits in a Byte.
40 / 8 = 5
100 / 8 = 12.5

Or am I missing something? -->>>

"Luis.......I like your numbers even better! "

I thought you might.
Of course, I'm not sure how much actual recording space you would get on a 4GB card... but I think it's safe to assume that it would be slightly less than 4gb (I assume there is some formatting space needed).

So, your original numbers may be a safer estimate.

Man, this NAB show cannot come sooner enough.

Forget the whole storage thing. My main beef with the Z1 is the low light capabilities. Apart from that and some minor faults it is a fantastic camera, really guys. Forget the stats, I've seen the pictures (not of perfectly controlled situations that couldn't look anything less than beautiful, but of high streets etc) and it looks absolutely wonderful.

There is not a decent 16:9 SD camera out there apart from the XL2 which is quite frankly overpriced.

The Z1, with HD 1080i, widescreen, and Sony's knack for getting millions of companies to provide great accesories, is a damn good proposition. As Shannon has pointed out, getting HD on a DV tape is pretty damn cool. Seriously cost effective.

The low light though is whack, and whilst the gain does its job, upon close inspection it is quite noticeable. I'm pretty sure the XL2 is less sensitive than the XL1.

If the HVX uses a similar type of sensor, then I can imagine in progressive modes it will lose LOADS of light. This is the clincher for me. If Panasonic can somehow overcome these things, then I will be impressed.

But like you all they have really got me curious. One picture, and a paragraph of specifications has basically caused thousands of words of conjecture.

Wow, there's a lot of buyer's remorse in this thread here...

The HVX200 doesn't take away any options. It won't make HDV go away. It won't make MiniDV go away. Which is why the Z1/FX1/JVC ProHD/XL2/DVX exist. They're all there. They all work. If you want them, use them. Nobody's forcing you otherwise.

Ahhh... Jaime, that was a breath of fresh air.

Thanks for bringing things into their proper perspective!