as the title says...

am I the only one who gets annoyed at this?

have been reading a few different forums & internet sites lately (mostly this one though!), gathering info, pros & cons of each camera to see which one will suit me best & fit into my budget (have people forgot you have to pay these cameras off with some type of video work??)

And its seems more & more often you read posts & reviews stating the new Panasonic & JVC HD cams are the "Z1 killer" or "the JVC/Pana blows away any Z1" or "Z1 owners are going to be sorry they dont wait for the new HD cams to come out"....

Its rediculous really. Like many people have said before me, each camera has its use. FX1 is cheap at US$3300, Z1 for more features, Pal/Ntsc fatures, XLR Audio for US$4900 is still great. The new Pana HD will prob be aboutUS$7000-$10000 with 24p will be great & The JVC with a real manual lens & shoulder mount will be great too.... Each has its pupose, targeted market & price range it fits into....

By the way, the reason I made this post is a customer came into the camera store I work for last week & said "Have you got any Canon 20D cameras in stock, I want to trade you in my Canon 1D cos I read on the net somewhere that the 20D blows it away.." (Again these 2 cameras are in different market groups, one is a pro camera & one is a consumer camera, both good though)I shock my head & after 10 mins of explanation to him he kept his Canon 1D & bought a new Pro lens instead..... which was the smart thing to do....

The next person who starts a "Camera Killer" thread or "My Apple blows away your Orange" thread will be hunted down & their cat will have nasty things done upon it... :)

My rant for the day...

At a JVC reseller event I attended last week, the rep was able to hint a little further about the impending 100u release. He was almost giddy when he floated the idea that the new cam would be priced in the Z1 range. Obviously their single chip prosumer hdv cams have suffered under the presence of the Sonys.

So that said and as a tabby tribute, I will avoid the use of killer analogies. But if the pricing prognosticator is precise, just imagine the impact that would have...

James, you've touched upon one of the unfortunate anomalies of internet message boards -- the tendency to compare two items which really aren't in the same class. These folks usually get hung up on superlatives, as in "most" this or "better" that... while ignorting the bigger picture of where these products fall in terms of price category, format and so on. Ultimately they're just tools, and I wish some of our members here would remember that. For what it's worth, when the FX1 / Z1 first came out, it was referred to as "the XL2 killer," so this is a trend which continues in cycles, and will no doubt happen every time some new camcorder is introduced. It's happened before, and will happen again, sadly.

Firstly Jimmy, again these are ifs, maybes, whens or will it happen.... and when this cam does come out, do you seriously believe Sony won't have a new model too? JVC might have a "Z1 Killer" but will it be a 'Z2 Killer"? Probably not...

I'm sure you come across many of these topics Chris... How do you stay so sane?? haha....

While I agree with the general sentiment, it doesn't seem that these comparissons are completely out of line in this case.

Jan has said that the new Panasonic camera is their answer to the Sony Z1, and the JVC is the first 3 chip HDV camera made by a manufacturer other than Sony.

While the pricing is still a question, you can't really blame people for comparing them....

now, if and when they are announced, if the pricing is far above the cost of a Z1, then I would agree that the comparisson doesn't really hold.

But, until then, I can see how the natural reaction would be to compare these cameras to the Z1.

I think we've kinda gone past embracing our tools for just being good tools, and turned them into an extension of our id. And if your id is a Z1, you'll feel threatened if someone else' id is an HDX100, or an XL3HD, or whatever else might come down the road. If your id is fragile, it's easy to be hurt by someone else' presence if their id is perceived to be stronger.

1. They're just tools; we run the tools.
2. The tools don't matter worth a damn if they're the best and we're ignorant of how to use them.
3. They're just tools. Dominate your tools.
4. Breathe deep and realize that the grass is always greener....somewhere.

I'm a big fan of the Z1. Maybe the JVC or Panny will offer better images. But I've got a Z1 or two, and I know what I can do with it, and can use it well. It's my axe of choice. If a sharper axe comes along, I'll look at it very seriously, all the while using my current axe. Maybe I'll add a new tool, maybe not. But if I do add one, you can bet my current tool will be constantly used as well, because it's a tool I know well.

Killer this, killer that? It's just too much testosterone speaking in old men that don't wanna take Viagra. :-)

Hi
I agree entirely with DSE... they are only tools!!!

I made a very similar point in the
Hype/excitment Z1/FX1 over !!

thread this week..

Regards

Gareth

"If a sharper axe comes along, I'll look at it very seriously, all the while using my current axe."

I agree completely, as I think we all do, with DSE's points.

However, while the hype may be overwhelming at times, I think that comparing cameras (tools) is still a necessary evil for those who are considering either upgrading, or making their first major purchase.

Granted, this time of year (only weeks away from NAB) it gets out of hand. But, for someone like me it's not so easy to simply say 'yeah, it's a tool like any other' while I"m considering spending up to $10,000 by the end of the year on new gear.

I haven't bought a camera in years, having been borrowing and renting over the past 4 years for the most part. Most of my money has been spent on post gear, and I"m finally getting to the point that I think I can justify the purchase of a new camera.

That said, when spending the money there are many things to consider, and you wind up disecting every feature on every camera out there.

Granted, there is still no room for hype, and hype isn't going to help anyone make an informed buying decision.

All I'm saying is that is seems much simpler to brush the comparissions off as unimportant when you've already chosen your "axe," and are too busy chopping wood to be bothered with a new one.

The trick is to keep level headed, and try to keep hype out of the equation.

You are right, they are just tools. But, for many of us, they are very expensive tools which we rely on to make our living.... and so the decision of which 'axe' to buy isn't always a quick and easy one.

Personally I hope the new cameras are as cool and as popular as the hype promises. That should cause Sony to react with a price drop shortly after NAB and make for a nice Z1 buying opportunity :-)

I think the "killer" moniker has been beaten to death way past the point of cliche. How many "iPod killers" have I read about during the past two years? That's what Sony called their disastrous Network Walkman.

I think Spot really nailed it: "I think we've kinda gone past embracing our tools for just being good tools, and turned them into an extension of our id." And that reminds me of one of my favorite movies, Forbidden Planet where "Monsters from the id" destroyed an entire technologically advanced society.

""Monsters from the id" destroyed an entire technologically advanced society."

Woah, gives a whole new meaning to the 'killer' moniker, doesn't it?

:)

<<<-- Originally posted by Boyd Ostroff : Personally I hope the new cameras are as cool and as popular as the hype promises. That should cause Sony to react with a price drop shortly after NAB and make for a nice Z1 buying opportunity :-)-->>>

thats what I hope for too.... If it got in the low $4000 after the announcement or release that'd be great as I think the Z1 is more than good enough for my usage...

I own a Sony HDR-FX1. I bought it to take to Hawaii last December and I have also taken it to Acapulco. And I have used it for other little projects as well. There was no better camera, for me, available for purchase in the same price range at the time I bought it.

I would be terribly disappointed if a new camera never came out that made mine something other than the best available in the price range.

While it will be a while before I buy a new camera, I would like to see a new camera be presented at NAB that makes me wish I owned it. Because then a while later, some other camera will come out to beat that one, and another and another, and then eventually they will be so good I will go out and buy one.

Let them all "kill" the one before. Let the manufacturers beat each other up on features and price and maybe one day I will spend the same amount on a new state-of-the-art camera that I did for my FX1 but get a lot more for the money.

We all like to have the best, but eventually something better comes along. So what? It would be sad if that never happened, wouldn't it?

I would never take issue with comparing cameras or anything else. When looking at a woman to spend time with, I constantly compare to my ex-wife. (Will this woman stab me or shoot me? Will she steal everything I've worked hard for? Will she recognize that I'm a good person even though I wear the shirt she hates enough to wipe the toilet with?)

But...comparisons are based on opinions for the most part. Electronically, it could be argued that the Z1 is inferior to say...most any high end 2/3 DV camcorder. But our eyes tell us it's not. My point being, comparisions made should be gauged by the position and experience of the person doing the gauging. As an example, I think anyone listening to just me talking about Vegas when it comes to NLE's, is a fool. I'm fairly open minded, and broadly experienced. I've written books on Adobe, Apple, Ulead, and Sony NLE's. But I prefer Vegas. I'd never trust only Barry Green's words on camcorders, because he has an obvious bias. I'd never, ever, ever trust Chris Hurds word on horses, because he only likes good looking mares.
So, look to WHO is making the comment, as that's a pretty telling point. Is the person saying this cam is KILLER someone you know? Maybe he's a schill for the company who makes it? Maybe he's inexperienced in camcorders and was impressed with the first pretty picture he saw? Or maybe he's truly unbiased, but that would be rare.
I love the Z1, but I've also written a lot of words about it's weaknesses. I'm sure I'll love what comes next from JVC, but it too will have weaknesses. Anytime we're talking about sub 50k cams right now...there will be weaknesses. You just gotta know how to sharpen your axe.

"I would like to see a new camera be presented at NAB that makes me wish I owned it. Because then a while later, some other camera will come out to beat that one, and another and another, and then eventually they will be so good I will go out and buy one."


I couldn't agree more....
that's actually where I am right now, and it's a good place to be.


DSE - I think we're on the same page.

And, I think we can all agree that the term "Killer" has no place in a serious and lucid camera comparison.

That term alone would make someone suspect to me.

I'm a little guilty of this, because when I first heard about the HD-100 last November, then un-named, and posted it up here. The "FX1/Z1 killer" title was to grab people's interest, something from my news days.

But, to be honest, the 1 chip JVC cameras kinda hurt themselves because of their one chip, etc.

heath

>The next person who starts a "Camera Killer" thread or "My Apple blows away your Orange" thread will be hunted down & their cat will have nasty things done upon it... :)<
Excuse me James , but I have 7 cats( and 7 dogs) - and I totally agree with all who say bring it on - the more cameras we have the better -the z1 is the best for the moment. If the panasonic is better , and it probably will be , then maybe sony will release a better z2 - that's how it works . However with apples - they are always the best. That's how that works. Sounds like you've watched Gummo one too many times mate. Kurth

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : For what it's worth, when the FX1 / Z1 first came out, it was referred to as "the XL2 killer," . -->>>

And yet, look how many RECENT posts are in the XL2 forum with new and regulars alike proclaiming ownership of brand new XL2's. Obviously, the FX1/Z1 combo didn't kill the XL2 sales. We won't know exactly how many sales of XL2 cams were lost to those who sought the new Sony cameras, but 'kill' the XL2 they have not.

-gb-

JAMES DARREN, you never know what Sony has up it's sleave. imagine what would happen if Sony showed up at NAB oh let's say with a model called Z1 pro. if it had the same lens as the HD-100, they re-did the firmware so it would do tru 24p (even if it was only 1280x720).
if they did this, they could kill JVC and PANASONIC's cameras in there tracks. there would be such a blood bath of people losing their jobs, it would force them to finally come up with something close to Sony's f900 camera at an affordable price just to stay competive. then we would all benifet.

SONY, ARE YOU LISTENING? HERE'S YOU CHANCE TO RULE THE HDV WORLD FOR YEARS TO COME .

Darrell
FIRST CINEMA PICTURES

"if they did this, they could kill JVC and PANASONIC's cameras in there tracks."

Am I the only one that finds this ironic, given the topic of this thread?

:)

<<<-- Originally posted by Luis Caffesse : "if they did this, they could kill JVC and PANASONIC's cameras in there tracks."

Am I the only one that finds this ironic, given the topic of this thread?

:) -->>>


LOL

Yeah, that's pretty funny.

Seriously though, proclamations of one camera's "death" based on the announced (or unannounced) features of another are obviously way premature.

For example, even though we have some fairly detailed specifications on the new JVC, I can think of at least three compelling advantages that the Z1 offers that the JVC doesn't, for a certain market segment:

1) Autofocus. Love it or hate it, it's a great invention and there are times when you gotta have it. Not necessarily any big loss for drama/moviemakers, but for news or events or things like that, it's always better to have the option, especially when you're talking about HD resolution.

2) 1080 resolution vs. 720. If you're shooting for a 1080 broadcast, shooting 1080 in the first place is probably the better choice. NBC and CBS are 1080i, FOX and ABC are 720p.

and most importantly,

3) the "reality" look. From all I've read about the JVC, it only records at 720/24p and 720/30p. If it doesn't offer 720/60p, it's going to be at a huge disadvantage for a lot of types of shoots. News, events, reality tv, sports, all sorts of things are traditionally shot at the 60i/60p frame rate, and there will be lots of times where the 30p look just won't cut it, people will want and need that "immediacy" of 60i or 60p. Now, if the JVC offers 60p recording, that's one thing, but if it doesn't, that leaves a huge market segment open to the Z1.

"Now, if the JVC offers 60p recording, that's one thing, but if it doesn't, that leaves a huge market segment open to the Z1."

The JVC does not offer 60p recording.
It will only stream 60p through the outputs, but won't lay it down to tape.

I don't think there has been any official word on 60i yet.

What is great, is it appears we will have no less than 4 great cameras to choose from, depending on what you want to do.
I'm glad I can wait for another month to see which one I will get.

But what Spot said is correct, I remember how upset Sony pd150 owners were when the JVC DY300 came out. They couldn't bad mouth it enough. Really felt threatened.

I think the JVC will go for a different market than the FX1/Z1, but who knows. News people couldn't care less about 24p.

If it's well built and creates great looking video, I think it will be the next 'great thing' for Independent Movie makers (like myself) and possibly Wedding specialist who want to offer a 'film look' to their clients.....and no threat at all to anything else. Those wanting to shoot Music Videos will have a new best friend too. I can only imagine what the folks at PS Technik are waiting to do. I also guessing it will become the new 'it' camera for big name film directors who want something to take with them on vacation (720x24p for the cost of lunch? How can they resist, hehehe).

The Z1 is gonna own the live event and eng world whether I buy one or not. I'm hoping the JVC is the camera I've been waiting for all these years for the type of work I want to do.

I think we finally have a situation here of win win for everyone. Pretty rare, so enjoy it.

I'm sure the Panasonic folks will have a say in this too.

<<<-- Originally posted by James Darren : If it got in the low $4000 after the announcement or release that'd be great as I think the Z1 is more than good enough for my usage... -->>>

We're pretty much there already. Zotz Digital is offering a DVinfo special on the Z1 for $4,400 including UPS ground shipping http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41608

"..the Z1 is gonna own the live event and ENG world..."

A very good point!! I'm sure all of the manufacturers have a target market in mind when they design these cameras. Many of the on line forums seem to have a high population of film makers looking specifically for 24p equipment. To read their posts for the last few years you would think that Sony never sold another PD 170 after the Pana DVX 100 was released. However, there is a very large market for small, broadcast quality, 60i ENG cameras, probably quite a bit larger than the film making group. My guess is that Sony has positioned the Z1 to go after the same market that the PD 150/170 has been so very successful in. It sure looks like Pana and JVC are going after the film makers. I mean, different strokes for different folks.
So, maybe there's not gonna be a "best camera", might just be a case of apples vs. oranges.
We shall see.

The JVC does not offer 60p recording.
It will only stream 60p through the outputs, but won't lay it down to tape.
Has that been confirmed? Just because we haven't read about it in the specifications that are released so far, doesn't mean it won't happen. HDV provides for 720/60p recording. They've already said the camera can output 720/60p on the component outputs. So why not allow recording it?

By all accounts there are still a good three or four months before the first one goes on sale -- plenty of time for new announcements and surprises. If JVC has definitively announced that it WILL NOT record 60p, then I think that was a big mistake on their part.

Barry,

From this article in Broadcasting & Cable (http://www.broadcastingcable.com/index.asp?layout=articlePrint&articleID=CA510328)

"The new camera can't record 720p at 60 frames per second, but future models will. But the new ProHD is capable of outputting 720p/60 for live transmission or recording on an external video server.

I assumed that 'future models' meant some other camera in the future, not future production models of the forthcoming HD100.

Well, yeah, there it is.

What a mistake.

Well, I do hope they rectify that before the product ships. I mean for some uses 24p/30p-only may be fine, and I'm the biggest 24p advocate in the world, but seriously... there's still quite a large segment that will need a "reality" look.

I find it kinda strange that JVC is even putting the HDV moniker on this cam. It's got PCM on separate tracks, capable of 60P on component out, and other variations on the format. But, it looks good. For me....I'm gonna be gunshy just because it says JVC on it, but that's an old prejudice that I need to drop. I'm quite sure it will be a decent cam. I can't figure out why they're playing so much with the format standards.

From what I understand, it's fully HDV compliant, but adds to it. So when recording in HDV mode you don't get uncompressed audio etc... it's just when going into its extended "ProHD" mode that you get it.

Kind of like how an FX1 is miniDV and HDV, the JVC is claiming it's HDV and ProHD.

Agreed, and understood. My point more than anything is that JVC is shooting themselves in the foot marketing-wise, IMO, by confusing the market further with a "new" format. It's what? Pro HD....OK....is that "enhanced HDV?" EHDV? HDEV? HDVE?
How many formats do we need? want? supported by manufacturers?

I don't know if you know much about the music biz, but Roland tried this sort of thing with MIDI about 18 years ago. They pushed their SysEx and exclusive MIDI, proclaiming how much better it was. After years of not playing in the specifics of the format, they finally ended up abandoning anything that was exclusive, much to the chagrin of their users.

HDV is a *little* different, but the concept is the same. Trying to buck the trend as a newcomer to any format is a little odd, and usually counterproductive.

Again, i'm sure that this is gonna be a very nice cam, but there are a lot of new variables.
After spending an hour on the phone with one of their factory people, it was comical how he tap danced around many issues, not the least of which yet is price.
I can't help but wonder if JVC is willing to turn this cam into a loss-leader just to buy the market a bit?
That could definitely be harmful to the Z1 market.

At a JVC reseller event I attended last week, the rep was able to hint a little further about the impending 100u release. He was almost giddy when he floated the idea that the new cam would be priced in the Z1 range.

But, as someone else said, it's only 720 lines... that's about half the pixels of a Z1 image.

Certainly it has its benefits, and if they do release it at Z1 prices then I'd seriously consider it as an alternative, but it's far from a Z1-killer even at Z1 prices. Indeed, for anyone who really wants 1080 resolution, it's simply irrelevant.

As far as I'm concerned, if the new JVC was released at Z1 price and could record 1080 (even if only at PAL and NTSC frame rates and not 24p), it would be pretty much a Z1-killer for me... but as it is it's just another option to consider. And one I probably wouldn't go for.

I think the fact that the BBC are telling their people to switch to Z1s from PD170s is probably a good sign that there's no obvious Z1-killer on the horizon: they must have pretty good links to the manufacturers that will tell them what's coming out in the near future.

I thought both the Z1 and the HD-100 had over 1 million pixels per chip. Plus, if I'm not mistaken, the actual pixels (and I might be wrong here) for the Z1 in use is over 800,000 pixels. Spot will be able to confirm this for us.

Also, James Darren started this thread, but I don't believe he's made any comments since then. What are your thoughts, James?

heath

I thought both the Z1 and the HD-100 had over 1 million pixels per chip.

Possibly, but 1280x720 is still about half as many pixels as 1920x1080 (both are anamorphic in HDV, aren't they?). The Z1 may need 'pixel shift' and interlacing to get that resolution, but it's still going to produce a picture with significantly more detail than 720 in almost every case... maybe the JVC camera would win if you were deinterlacing fast-moving footage which was shot using entirely green lighting (so the 'pixel shift' produces negligible benefits and you lose an entire field on the Z1), but that won't happen often to most people.

In fact, living in a PAL country I don't really see the point of 720 in the first place... it may be about twice as many pixels as NTSC DV, but it's only about 60% more pixels than PAL DV. Better, but hardly revolutionary.

Z1/FX1: 960x1080i w/ pixel shift to 1920x1080i, resample to 1440x1080i. Each chip has a native resolution of 1.0368 Mpixels

JVC G100: 1280x720p (no pixel shift *hope*) to 1280x720p. Each chip has a native resolution of 0.9216 Mpixels

Let the images speak for themselves when the cameras come out. I suspect compression, aberration, and lattitude will play a larger role in distinguishing the two.

Hi Heath,

Well the thread started going technical, which is wasn't what I really wanted so I didn't contribute much else. Plus some people seemed to mis-understand my comments & took offence to my joke in the post i made.

I just think many prosumer/amatuer film-videomakers these days are way too focussed on their camera specifications rather than their camera skills or story telling abilities... and dont think i'm some "over the hill person who hates modern technology" or something. I'm a 24yr old Electronics Repair tech by trade. Everyday I get people in our camera store asking me for my tech advice like "is camera A better than camera B brand" or "will this camera make me a better photog" or "how do I make my video look like film" etc etc. The more I work in this trade & deal with these "tech junkies" the more I realise its not the camera that makes great images but the person behind it.

For example, the 2 best video/lighting guys in my city dont even own their own cameras. They get hired because of their great skills, not the camera they have. The have their own lighting & grip equipment because they generally dont change much & are just as important (if not more so) than your brand or resolution of your camera. Plus lighting/grip equipment doesn't depreciate nearly as much as a digital camera. There are heaps of freelence guys who own their own digi betas but get no where near as much work as these guys....

Also in my situation, i own a Sony PDX10P. Not the latest model now but I still get good sellable in demand surfing footage with it even though there's other guys shooting HDV now... wanna know why? Cos i'm a competent waterman who knows the waves & water shooting reasonably well (sorry i'm bragging here!) Thats my advantage over the guys who stand on the beach too scared to hop in the water...

Also all these people who think image quality or the latest model camera is the most important thing, please show me some of your movie masterpieces that require such superb image quality. I'd also like to see how superb your storyline, audio, composition, camera movement & lighting are too...

And i'm still standing by my point of not using the word "Z1 killer". Just because a new model comes out it doesn't mean the previous model is all of a sudden going to produce poor video now....

James,

Good points all around. Like I said earlier, I wanted something flashy to attract readers, hence the "killer" title (from my years in TV news, heh heh).

And I 100% agree with you about cameras--I learned the hard way (going broke) that a better camera and edit system doesn't equal a better movie. Though I will argue using a decent mini-dv and iMovie is better than a consumer VHS from 10 years ago and a camera mic (and editing between a deck and the camera) in terms of overall picture and sound (maybe not angles, lighting, etc.).

heath

Good points Heath.... I too spent thousands on owning all my own equipment thinking that if I own the best equipment that all of a sudden i'll become this great filmer with heaps of work & money! Boy was I wrong! Now that i've sold a fair bit of my gear & just own the basics to get me by (I usually hire or borrow from work when I need specific gear) i'm getting more work & money because I now have more experience & knowledge.

by the way the term "Z1 Killer" wasn't directed at you personally or anything. Looking at your website & resume you're the not the type of people i'm directing this thread at.... you actually work & are active in the movie/video making scene!

I also think many manufacturers of cameras make "fear" (if thats what you call it) in regards to having the best & latest model camera. They make you believe that having the best camera will produce the best movies & if you dont have it you'll be left behind. Similar to the way the news creates hype for their stories by using the words "epidemic" & "terrorist".

Of course camera companies are cutthroat, that's how they survive.

heath

"I also think many manufacturers of cameras make "fear" (if thats what you call it) in regards to having the best & latest model camera. They make you believe that having the best camera will produce the best movies & if you dont have it you'll be left behind"

I think that can be said of pretty much any product based industry. Just take a look at the above statement and try a little fill in the blank....seems like it could fit just about anything.

"I also think many manufacturers of (blank) make "fear" (if thats what you call it) in regards to having the best & latest (blank). They make you believe that having the best (blank) will produce the best (blank) & if you dont have it you'll be left behind"

Sad, but that's the message most commercials seem to push.
I have a hard time with that because I've been making a pretty good living shooting commercials lately.

But at least I can remember that in the end, they are all 'just tools' as we always remind ourselves. It's not a zero sum game, and just because one camera may be great, doesn't mean another one can't be great as well.

Apple plays up the fears of Windows XP people who are scared of viruses, etc.

heath