I want to get started doing this and photo montages, but it seems very slow. Wait. Let me rephrase that. If I have one more cheap spaghetti dinner, I'm going to scream. Well, at least the cat eats well.

Is anyone out there making money with this type of thing, or do I need to adjust my direction and do something different? My experience level is a little better than beginner, to moderate, (isn't it all relative though?) with some graphic design background.

Your experiences and feedback with this? Business ideas? Brilliant and wise advice?

Thanks

ps did you know you can eat for three days on a jar of Ragu and a pound of vermicelli?

Hmm maybe you can try doing it for dead people? As in for funerals.

have you done that?
Actually I have been pursuing that.

Most all the retrospectives that I have done for not famous people have all been relatives and they have all been done for free. And I tell ya, I pour my heart into 'em. Leaves 'em weeping all over the place.

If I thought I could get 500 to $1K for this kind of thing I might market it a bit, but when you toss it up on a 6'x8" screen in a huge reception for multiple families to witness and no one inquires about their gramma's legacy reel, you have to wonder...

After 5 years of many productions of all sorts, I have only ever produced one of these for a paying client...

What type of things do you do mostly?

Anything video. No pornos though. Wholesome family entertainment only.

Seriously though, find out which video category you excell at and exploit that one. Become the best at it so your competitors will remark with copious shagrin: "awshucks not them again" whenever they hear your name. This takes time and some unpaid hours and cold calls. Pull out the yellow pages for Lost in Space and start with a business category that you are very familiar with and begin the selling process.

I found a category that was being done poorly in my area and now I have the best in my marketplace. I am close to adding a second. Yesterday, I got a repeat call for a production that was viewed as a grudge purchase at one point! It's amazing what you can do when you specialize.

It seems like it would be a hard market to make money in. First, everyone thinks that they can do it with their home computer and the free programs that come with it and so why should they pay someone else to do it and secondly, the amount of time it takes to scan in all the photos, color correct and touch them up and convert years worth of video in many different formats and then edit it into a decent presentation almost makes it cost prohibitive. I don't know of anybody that does this for a living but I'll bet someone is trying.
You could drop the word at local church functions or other places grandparents hang out at, as it seems this is the type of market that would be both willing, and able, to purchase an item like that. Grandparents like stuff about their children and grandchildren and when they buy something like it as a gift (perhaps for a child of theirs) the children get the seed planted for a future purchase about their parents. I've only done similar things like this as a personal gift because it was someone I knew, I couldn't imagine charging a decent rate for it because it would have been quite expensive. I think it's a neat idea but it hasn't been fully exploited as a viable market yet. Maybe you can be the one to exploit it.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kell Smith : If I have one more cheap spaghetti dinner, I'm going to scream.

Your experiences and feedback with this? Business ideas? Brilliant and wise advice?
->>>

Spice it up cheaply with a can of tuna and some basil.


Apart from that, I'll seconds Jimmy's suggestions, and I'll add:

Working for free is better than not working at all while you are getting started. It'll help you build contacts, good vibes with future possible clients, and build a great demo reel.

Rhett's viewpoint raised to the power of 2. And Dylan's work for no pay approach is part of the game! Every restaurant does it when opening day is approaching ... ok they might only be free for one night, but you get the point.

For every home computer that is firewire equipped and capable of smashing out a basic dvd, there are 10 that have powerpoint.

This is the consumer marketplace and enduser mindset that has put up a pretty big hurdle.

Since slideshows sync'd to music with K.Burns effect can be trashed out of a mac in about 15 minutes, you have a serious D.I.Y. component out there.

But every challenge presents an opportunity! You just have to key in on the moneymaking ones.

Yes now if I can only nail just what the moneymaking areas are.

Eventually I'd like to move toward different markets, more documentary-oriented. And I think ultimately, once I learn to use After Effects, I will probably be pretty good at motion graphics, esp with the graphic design background. I'm still not sure how to market that one though, or where the niche would be for one independently employed. Another area eventually would be videography, although I am concerned about wear and tear on my back with heavy cameras so hopefully weights on better-quality cameras will come down by then.

For right now the pressing question is, where is the money for an independently-employed, moderately experienced enteprenurial type?

I have no problem doing free work and have actually been doing some barter. I do have to eat and pay rent though, so I need to clear about two grand a month right away and I'm out of resources. And walking away and getting a job in hopes of coming back to it later doesn't solve the problem, because I will have to quit that in order to start this again, and no job working for someone is going to pay what I need to make to save up money to fall back on. I really want to do this now, not later but am up against the wall coming up with options. I would also go sell graphic design work and am open to business ideas in that area, as well.

I have one luxury in life, and that's cable, and that's being turned off today.

I've got to do this now, not later but am just trying to figure out how. I expected work to come in if I got out there and put out brochures and maybe it still will but I'm thinking I need some more solid options for doing this. literally, there has only been one call in two months, looking for a price.

Hey this is an awesome board. Thanks so much for your feedback.

Tuna? In spaghetti? Aaargh.
Does it really work?
Hey but the can of tuna in there is for the kitty. Could get ugly if I try to keep it for myself.

"Legacy Videos"... is what I call them. I've done a couple. Ton's of work if you want to do it right, because you have all sorts of legacy footage from super 8 to vhs, to godknowswhat.

Personal experience? People expect 'Ken Burns' quality and can rarely afford it. My advice is to NEVER work for free. It only makes it that much harder to start charging for it. Now, you might have a discounted price, you might do it for some sort of exchange of services... but never, ever EVER work for free. People do NOT appreciate it in the long run. IF you don't value your work, why should you? And when you DO discount or barter your services, be sure to present them with a Full Bill, AND the discount. In other words, bill them the full six grand... THEN print out the family discount or whatever. That way when you finally get around to asking for six grand from them or someone else, it's no surprise.

Just my business experience.

Is six grand about what you were getting for your legacy videos?

Or for whatever you were getting ... how did you go about bidding? I was planning to post a different thread about that, after a forum search. It does seem that people don't have any clue how much work is involved once the shoot is done and I wasn't quite clear how to explain it to them and bid without being murky, and without them thinking I was taking them for a ride.

yeah, i haven't done any absolutely free work. I have done some barter which is fine, it's a fair and useful exchange.

I did one band shoot for practically free and I wasn't clear, i just wanted the experience and now he wants a bit of editing for it and it feels like he wants the moon for free. But really he doesn't -- it was my devaluing my services because of my inexperience, and my not being clear with him regarding time. So I asked for it. But next time I will spell things out a lot more clearly. It helps when you know what to expect though in terms of your own time and I am still learning to gage that.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kell Smith : Tuna? In spaghetti? Aaargh.
Does it really work?
Hey but the can of tuna in there is for the kitty. Could get ugly if I try to keep it for myself. -->>>

Switch to rottini and you are golden. In fact, I think I might have some right now...


To offer a counterpoint to Richard's "never work for free", here are some situations where it works:

Every job I've done for free has led to benefits; some led to paid work, some led to meeting actors, some lead to meeting sales people, producers, and future clients. If I had not taken every free job I had, I would have about 30% of the work/resources I have.

And a good true to life example; I met forum member Keith Loh on here. I needed a website built. He offered to do it for free. I accepted. Since then, I've got him at least three web building jobs at full price.

My suggestion is to, since you have the time, get some business cards, go to any type of event you can get into (with permission) with your video camera; sports, concert, plays, etc... Make a video. Give the event producers a short clip which you've edited and polished, as well as your rate sheet. Offer them 50% off any job they book with you in the next 2 weeks.
If you do enough, that might get you some steady clients.

When I say 'free' I mean without a quid pro quo. Sometimes its money, sometimes its an exchange of services, sometimes it's an "understanding' that the favor will be called it. (Though not writing it down, is still the best way to ruin a friendship).

You know that's a fabulous idea about going to events. I never would have thought of that.
Do you then try to sell them on a larger video of the whole event? And what do you charge them?

Well, the cable's been officially cut off now. =(

But it occurs to me i've got a near-complete Total Training library for After Effects, totally untouched and some other training DVDs that need to be reviewed.

Maybe not being able to watch Law & Order is really a good thing in disguise.

So I'll be sitting here for the next few weeks in front of my computer with my spaghetti, actually learning something.

Time to turn off What Not To Wear and get on with some substantive viewing. It's fun, but it won't make me any money. Clinton and Stacey will have to wait.

*Sigh* I guess you get what you need in life, sometimes.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited to add:

OMG it's still on! I turned it on to see if I could get any of the local channels and it's still on, all 99 channels. The cable guy was really nice, we talked for a few minutes. I think he did it on purpose.

Maybe they turn it off later or something. But I think it should go off once he flips the switch, shouldn't it?

God BLESS that cable guy....
--------------------
Didn't mean to go off-topic. Back to business ideas?
...anyone still there? ....anyone ? anyone hear an echo in here?
You've all left me...alone in DVLand...noooo......

I'm in the same boat as you. Although I'm not trying to make a living from it, I want to turn a hobby into something that will at least pay back the equipment.
I have researched "Video Biographies" extensively and there are many out there offering them, but obviously they dont say how many they actually do.
I have a web site and have been doing some targeted advertising in my area but still have no paying customers. I think that I will do some more free, on condition that I can use them in my advertising and they talk to all their friends and relatives. It seems that everyone I speak to thinks it's a good idea, but between that and actually opening their wallets !!!
By the way I am using a Sony TRV950 with Azden Wireless Lav and editing with Vegas Studio.
Here is a link to my site
www.flashback-bio.com

Well, I know that there's at least one guy I've heard of who claims to get high $$$ for his biographies.

I want to do something slightly different than what he does, with mine.
It sounds like the money is not here though, because a lot of people don't have the kind of money it takes to pay what the time is worth.

Everyone thinks it's a good idea though. But it does seem time-intensive and it's hard to explain that part of it to people. But it seems that it woudn't be all that different from doing, say, a wedding in terms of time put in. How do wedding videographers explain the time involved in post to their clients? Well it's probably easier in that respect because people expect to pay a certain amount for a wedding videographer. Whenever, just suveying people in general, I've asked what they think would be a fair price for a personal biography, once you get them to even have a concept of what it is, they usually kick back a price that's really low ("I don't know, fifty dollars? A few hundred?") They never, ever say, ' a few thousand." They really have no concept at all of what's involved.

So it looks like maybe this isn't that lucrative an avenue. I'm wondering now which way I should adjust my course to bring in some money and what other types of projects would be a good bet.

Have you thought of contacting real estate agents and offering them video walkthroughs of houses. You could give them a 4-5 minute DVD to show to clients and maybe a small WMV or such for the web.
There was much discussion on this issue a few monthes back on the help wanted section of this board
here is a link to that thread
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=32947

Hey, that's a good idea too. I 'll check out the thread. Thanks =)

Why not put together a package for funeral homes -- get them to sell it to their clients. If they make enough money from it, they'll be compelled to push it.

Charge a lot for it. After all, this is a very elite package which will let family members for generations to come get to know their kin on a very intimate level. In fact, it would be downright cruel for them to shuffle-off without considering the needs of their loving family members. **wipes away tear**

Most old-folks know approximately when they're going to die, and make their own arrangements (if they're able to -- or their family will do it for them.) The money comes out of their insurance or what's left of their retirement. And it's not like they'll need the money after they're dead (which is why funeral caskets are $20,000).

All the funeral director would need to sell it is a brochure and a demo tape or disc. You wouldn't have to do any selling at all -- just sit back and wait for the phone to ring.

You may want to target extended-care nursing homes as well. Again let the nursing home sell it for you. This time the pitch would play upon the guilt of family members who don't have the time to take care of their parents. A "feel good" gesture for all.

I'm not being sarcastic at all. Business is business. Do you want to eat cheap spagetti dinners all your life?

Also, approached with genuine compassion, this would be a valuable service for your clients.

Yes, actually this is what I've been doing.
I think I'm underpriced though.
Hopefully persistence will pay off.

I know of a guy who does funerals quite a bit. He shoots direct to VHS with no edit, then does a couple of dubs. Funeral home takes half or more of total fee, but he gets 150-200 bucks for not too much work. Families only come together for weddings and funerals.

Yes, these guys sure want to mark it up. I had one say, 'what can you do for US?" I had to really wrestle with what my price structure would be because I wanted to make sure it was me who took the markup, not grieving people.

I know some people tape funerals so that is a market. I can't imagine why anyone would want to preserve such a sad time though. Never did understand that.

My suggestion is to, since you have the time, get some business cards, go to any type of event you can get into (with permission) with your video camera; sports, concert, plays, etc... Make a video. Give the event producers a short clip which you've edited and polished, as well as your rate sheet. Offer them 50% off any job they book with you in the next 2 weeks.
If you do enough, that might get you some steady clients. -->>>

Do I then try to sell them a video of the entire event?

<<<-- Originally posted by Kell Smith :
I know some people tape funerals so that is a market. I can't imagine why anyone would want to preserve such a sad time though. Never did understand that. -->>>

1. Because the deceased never took the time to tell his own story (video biography), and the family wants to preserve whatever stories are told about him/her at the funeral.

2. Because the family is seldom together, and this gives the non-attendees a chance to see what everyone looks like.

So here is your biography pitch: "Look people are going to talk about you at your funeral. This is your chance to tell your side of the story, because you won't be able to defend yourself later."

<<<-- Originally posted by Kell Smith : My suggestion is to, since you have the time, get some business cards, go to any type of event you can get into (with permission) with your video camera; sports, concert, plays, etc... Make a video. Give the event producers a short clip which you've edited and polished, as well as your rate sheet. Offer them 50% off any job they book with you in the next 2 weeks.
If you do enough, that might get you some steady clients. -->>>

Do I then try to sell them a video of the entire event? -->>>

You mean the video you shot while you were there? NO! It is your foot in the door to sell them on your video production skills for their next event!
Now, the success of this depends on
1) your ability to sell yourself and your skills
2) your ability to make a kick-ass video
3) your ability to spell out for them how they can make money off your video by selling it to their clients, patrons, etc...

For example:
I went to a sporting event with my still camera and shot all day. Then I gave the event producers a CD of all my photos to use royalty free on their website (only-not distribute). I suggested that they and I could make some extra cash by selling my CD to people who had participated in the event, splitting the profit 50/50. They were excited because this is extra revenue that they wouldn't have seen, and didn't realize was possible. I'm happy because I'm getting a contract to shoot their next couple events, except next time they are going to pre-sell the photo-CD as well.

Now apply the theory to your situation. :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Kell Smith :
Do I then try to sell them a video of the entire event? -->>>

I did one of these last year, and then presented it to the event organizers this year as a sample. They are about to hire me for this year's event. But they also wanted

1. Copies of the sample video to use in this years sponsor recruiting (I gave them some, but my company name is plastered all over the video and the packaging).

2. They indicated that they were just going to "make more copies" if they needed them, and I had to start explaining that I was not happy with that, especially since it was done for free.

3. Then they called me last Tuesday and asked what the URL was for the web version, because they wanted to give it to the newspapers. I did a simple webpage for them, making sure my company gets at least some exposure if people go to the site. And I had to make sure that I didn't overuse my bandwidth if it generates a ton of traffic.

4. Then they called me on Thursday and said the guy doing this year's TV ad backed out, and could I do one for them (they hinted at free). They wanted it in two days. I had to decline just because I needed to reload footage, have never done a TV ad before, did not have beta equipment to convert and am unfamiliar with the specs of doing ads. If I had a week I would have probably done it, even for free since I am slow this week. But I just felt that in two days, all I would do is look like a schmuck to the TV stations.

5. A few hours later I got a call from them saying that they had someone to do their ad, but he was "unable to use the DVD or web sample footage because of the compression, so could I please give them the uncompressed original footage?". Note that they never asked my permission to use this footage for a TV ad, it was supposed to be just a few DVDs so they could test whether this kind of coverage was something that their event sponsors responded favorably to. I am really glad I watermarked the DVD footage. I had to explain that raw tapes were unavailable.

The event is in two weeks. They are not signed for this year yet, and it is a good non-profit event. But you can bet my contract is going to have all these issues addressed. The moral of the story is that sample footage is sample footage. If you make getting stuff too easy and cheap, it can backfire or cause future problems. In my case I clearly have to rebuild some of the mutual respect aspects of the relationship because I gave them too much (IMO) and it almost snowballed out of control.

This first year, I did not make sure I got every vendor, all the musical acts, or anything like complete coverage. It was practice material, I didn't even intend to make a demo until I saw it come together while learning to use Vegas. . So I really don't want it where other editors can critique the raw footage or submarine my pending job. I don't want local companies mad at me because they were not on the video. I don;t want issues if come of the raw footage gets used inappropriately (none of the images were cleared)

I expect once this one is completed and done according to my shooting/editing skills at this point (complete with voice-over, etc), it should generate even more work. I have already had a couple of inquiries from the one they are showing around town. This year's real project will send one copy to every event sponsor, plus a whole bunch to large companies in the area. The potential is part of why I have been so acocmodating with them (to a point). Maybe I should have done the TV ads too, I dunno...

Doing unrequested "spec" work is great, but you have to draw lines around it or you will get abused. I would never do a spec if I was asked to "just shoot it so we can see what you can do". That is a whole different situation.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Couper : I went to a sporting event with my still camera and shot all day. Then I gave the event producers a CD of all my photos to use royalty free on their website (only-not distribute). I suggested that they and I could make some extra cash by selling my CD to people who had participated in the event, splitting the profit 50/50. They were excited because this is extra revenue that they wouldn't have seen, and didn't realize was possible. I'm happy because I'm getting a contract to shoot their next couple events, except next time they are going to pre-sell the photo-CD as well.

Now apply the theory to your situation. :) -->>>

Fabulous idea. Creative marketing.
I need to come up with more creative ideas like this.
Also, I am just getting started, and this would be a great way to jump-start a demo reel as well as to practice lots of new stuff.

Wow John
Warning heeded.
I hope you get some return for all the effort and hassle you have put in!
What will you say specifically in your contract next time? Do you know yet?
I don't even have a contract. Guess I should get one shouldn't I?

Everyone should have a contract, even for free jobs you do. Mine is pretty simple, covers who, where, when, what, how much, specific responsibilities, copyright transfer upon full payment, CYA stuff regarding equipment, weather, videographer malfunctions. Sometimes broadcast or distribution restictions if uncleared material is used (like in a party situation).

I call my product a "Personal Biography".
Did my first with 93 year old aunt to get something to show and market.
Runs about 25 minutes.
Labour of love for family members, and a joy to do.
Used a one-one-one interview with subject as the centre piece.
Added all sorts of stuff form 8mm to photos, archival stuff, preriod newspaper headlines, music of course.
Approached funeral directors in this community of half a million.
Without exception they discouraged the idea of selling so called tribute video as part of pre-paid funeral package. Too many other expenses in funeral packages,---they say.
Anyway fel kid and ghoulish about that effort.
Made presentations of seniors communities, but no bites so far, thought they were impressed and interested.
Seems the target market is the children and grandchildren of subject of these bios.
Would be interested to hear from anyone who is also trying to grow the personal bio part of their business.
Short exerpt of aunt's personal bio on by website,---the ending if you want to have a look.
Great to hear from anyone who is having success in this area.
Chatted with a fellow from Tennessee a few months ago who was charged 100 thousand for 50 minute production. He started doing them for 6 hundred dollars!

Hi Dan, I looked into the marketing of this about 5 years ago. I did a few brief presentations to local providers with very lukewarm results. Since then, the personal bios have been all pro bono family stuff. Fun to do, but difficult for folks to grasp the costs. It's still fun to explain to people why you are shooting the family home from decades ago near old Westmount. Makes for a good excuse to hit Vincenzo's for a sandwich!

Anyway, the bottom line is that there seems to be a market for personal bios ... but at a limited price point.

Seems to be the case.
Folks in this market are more tight-fisted than those in the larger markets.
Having gone through the process of shooting and editing a personal bio,----I have a new appreciation of the time involved.
Also in my case I was working with a lucid woman who was all supportive,---and I kind of knew her story.
It could be very different with a stranger.
There's a lot to get one's head around a lot of research, a lot of faces to recognize,---not to mention the matter of divorce and remarriage.
What I'm saying is for time expended, the return could be paltry.
Kind of like weddings. Which I really have little interest in.
As an alternative to corporate stuff, I would like to grow the personal bios. I still think when dealing with the right client, there could be some persional satisfaction that doesn't come from many of the big money jobs.
May have to move to the bigger markets for this one though.

This may have been mentioned but I find the following services people always will pay for at least in the Northwest. I don't advertise really anywhere, it's all word of mouth.

* Old Media converted to DVD (family vacations, etc) $50 an hour

* High School Sports Scouting Videos (basically family pays you to tape all the kids games and create a recruiting/scouting video they can send to colleges)
$800-$1200 per 15 minute finished video

* Funerals are a hit.. sad.. but a hit.. (They are way easy too)
They supply all the photos and video and I throw it together. I usually only charge $400 for this..

* Weddings (bah.. I actually don't like doing them because the time it takes in post with all the footage from all the cameras..:))
$2745-$9500 for a wedding.

For me.. I wouldn't call myself a success story but I have taught myself everything I know through forums, books and tutorials.. I don't advertise mainly because when I started it was friends and family and I did them for free, because I wasn't sure of my skills or quality of the end product. In fact I remember anytime the subject of video was brought up I offered to do something with it, I just wanted real material to practice with and if they didn't like it, that's ok they didn't pay anything.

Then it took off like wildfire more referrals, more referrals, more referrals and all the videos I made for free became an instant advertisement, since they wanted to show all their friends the video that was made for them.

I just talk to the clients like they are family and I am honest upfront with them if it's something I cannot do or don't know how. I find that in the beginning you sort that out they will keep their business with you and just work around some stuff. I still don't use contracts and I probably should, I just ask for 50% down and if I finish it and they don't pay me, it's ok.. It was just more material to practice with, I suppose if I didn't have a full-time career for the company I work for it would be more nerve racking..

Just curious: What does a $9k wedding look like in terms of shooters, gear and coverage?

Unless you have a budget like our Governor General does, I might find it hard to sell one of these; but you never know...

[QUOTE=Pat Sherman]
>>>* Old Media converted to DVD (family vacations, etc) $50 an hour<<<

What setups do you have to convert and digitize different formats, and what formats do you run into most often?

>>>* High School Sports Scouting Videos (basically family pays you to tape all the kids games and create a recruiting/scouting video they can send to colleges)
$800-$1200 per 15 minute finished video<<<

how many cameras/how much time into it?

>>>* Funerals are a hit.. sad.. but a hit.. (They are way easy too)
They supply all the photos and video and I throw it together. I usually only charge $400 for this..<<<

On average, how many home video clips? Do you ever tape the funerals?
I am finding people very resistant to prices even lower than this. Cheep, cheep, cheep. Just put the old geezer in the ground! No memorials! lol