Does anybody remember when the Sony PD170 came out?

anybody?

Yes that's right kiddies... 2004! It was January. (actually maybe december 2003, but who's countin')

Anyhow, Sony came out with a new camera then, and EEEevvvvverybody was pissed because it didn't do 24p. And then a Mere 12 months later....guess what came next???

*smile*

you guessed it... the Sony Z1U. Pretty much a HD replacement for the PD170 in only 12 months!

Now... if all truths being parrallel. How long has the XL2 been out? What? August of 2004? And when Canon dropped the XL2 on us, they didn't waste no time did they? Hell THEY DIDN'T EVEN ANNOUNCE IT AT NAB LAST YEAR!!! they were like "F**K NAB...we don't need them!!!" and instead they made their own privte announcment and it was in stores like in 30 days or someting!! When it came out, people were pissed that it was not HD, but not that much because the 24p option became a pacifier.

Now.... i dunno guys. Canon maybe smarter then you think they are. Everybody calling them slow and late and dumb and all that. (shakin' my head) I dunno about that. If you look at Sony and the PD170 and the 12 months to the Z1U. Then you look at Panasonics announcments and JVCs announcments and all that. Canon may be positioning themselves to hit the Nitrous Button on that dragster and blow past everyone in the race!!! Canon is part of the HDV Consortium too aren't they??

Based on all this evidence, the way Canon announces their stuff and delivers it right away, their esteemed history in Digital Video and all that....

Last I checked, Canon doesn't have any 'hi-end' cameras that cost over $6000 to protect do they???? LOL Lord have mercy....The more I type this post the more I think Canon is King and truly has everybody by the balls!!!!!

DUDE.. I wouldn't be surprised if CANON comes out with the VERY NEXT affordable HD camera THIS SUMMER!!! Even before JVC and Panasonic does. Think about it.......It will NOT piss of their current XL2 customers (from what I see they are already pissed anyhow) and it will put them back in the race....and most likely...IN THE LEAD!!!! The removable lens loyalty and indie filmmaker/videographer world would embrace Canon once again, and Sony/Pany/JVC would have to play catch-up!!

Since they have no big money eng or $100,000 gear to protect .............man o man........... if Canon hit the market "THIS SUMMER" with a $5500 XL-3 HDV 24p camera that uses a new removable HD lens that can be adapted to some of Canon's other hi-end glass or even the P+S??? OH MY GOODNESS!! Stop the presses!!!

CHECKMATE!!!

any thoughts?

- ShannonRawls.com

I was even thinking a GL1 type camera with 24p and HD. Maybe keep the cost down and get all the people who want a DVX 100 size camera. Right now the Panasonic tapeless camera doesn't sound that great. It might be nice when you can record more that 12 minutes for $1,000 or whatever it's going to cost.

There is a big market out there for 16:9, 24p and HD. If someone can do that under $5,000 they will take the lead.

If they did, that would be great.
But, I doubt it.

You're comparing the marketing and release history of two different companies, who follow two different methodologies. I suppose it's possible for Canon to change the way they release cameras, but given their history I doubt this will happen.

What I find more likely is that they will start with the lower level camera, the GL2. Odds are we will see an HDV GL3 before seeing anything in the high end from Canon.

"It will NOT piss of their current XL2 customers (from what I see they are already pissed anyhow)"

I disagree, I think a release of a high end Canon HDV camera at this point would very much upset XL2 customers, and it would also significantly hurt the sales of the XL2 (assuming here that you are talking about the potential of an HDV XL2-type camera).

Bob beat me to the punch...posted while I was writing.
:)

In reference to Panasonic's camera:

"It might be nice when you can record more that 12 minutes for $1,000 or whatever it's going to cost"

All signs are pointing to a 4gb card costing around $1000 by the time the camera is released, possibly less.

You can fit 13 minutes of DVCProHD 24P footage on a 4gb P2 card (if the camera does not record the duplicate frames, and there is no reason for it to do so on solid state memory).

My point is, it looks like you will probably be able to record more than 12 minutes for $1000 as soon as the camera is released. Obviously we won't know for sure until NAB.

Forget the GL series or cheap 1ccd stuff, I ain't talking about that, or ever will.

OK, so now tell me Luis my man, what "HISTORY" are you referring to? Hell, DV is only 7 years old! *smile* And the releases of the Xl1-Xl2 seems on par if you ask me. How many Pro-Cameras have Panasonic released to have a good "History" report as oppesed to Canon's BAD History??? What about JVC??? Gee wiz, how many cameras has Canon released to give them a "Negative History" to report on their Experian Credit Report?

Just because Canon decided not to come up with a new hybrid camera every 3 months and confuse the world with XL-1/XL1s/XL-1a, XL1sa7p, or some other ridiculous version of the same thing, and the fact that they didn't bother to release 6 different (but really the same) cameras all geared towards the same people, don't make them "Historically" bad on releasing cameras.

Now, if they came out with a XL-3 this summer. How is that going against their "History"?? They don't have a HISTORY. Do they?

And i seriously DOUBT that XL2 owners would be pissed. First off, it ain't enough of em to make a big deal. Secondly, the percentage of those few that do own XL-2's that want HD, have a reason to remain true to Canon so they wont complain, they actually will be happy. And Third of all...all the XL-1/s owners who never got the Xl2 (there's more of them then XL2 owners ya know) will welcome an XL3 HD/24p camera with OPEN ARMS!!

and you think canon will give a rats ass about the sales of the XL2 after the XL3 HD camera comes out??? LOL heck naw!! Did sony give a care about the PD170 sales before they released the Z1U??? Man please, they will make so much money on an XL3 that the XL2 owners will probably get a hefty rebate! *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com

"Forget the GL series or cheap 1ccd stuff, I ain't talking about that, or ever will."

Fair enough, but I'd still be willing to bet we'll see an HDV GL before anything else from Canon.

"OK, so now tell me Luis my man, what "HISTORY" are you referring to?"

I'm talking about Canon's history in the way they release cameras. They don't hype them before hand, they don't preview 'mockups.' They announce and show a working model usually 1-3 months before they hit the shelves. Usually before that they will have a rebate on the camera that will be most affected by the new release (the way the GL is still under rebate now by the way).

Then, when they have a camera out, they don't update it for a few years. This has held true for most of Canon's video history...from the L1 to the XL2. Again, I'm not saying they won't change it.... just that I think it's unlikely.
Of course, this all assumes we're talking about an XL2 HDV Camera (which is what you mentioned). I suppose it is possible they could begin a new line of camera, in which case all bets are off.


"How many Pro-Cameras have Panasonic released to have a good "History" report as oppesed to Canon's BAD History??? What about JVC??? Gee wiz, how many cameras has Canon released to give them a "Negative History" to report on their Experian Credit Report?"

I'm not sure where you got this from, but I never said I thought canon had a "bad" history. In fact, I've always liked the way Canon releases their cameras. I like that they don't waste my time with mockups and vaporware that might never see the light of day.

You said they have a 'bad' history, not me.
If my post gave you the impression that I didn't like the way Canon released their cameras, sorry, that wasn't what I meant at all.

"Just because Canon decided not to come up with a new hybrid camera every 3 months and confuse the world with XL-1/XL1s/XL-1a, XL1sa7p, or some other ridiculous version of the same thing, and the fact that they didn't bother to release 6 different (but really the same) cameras all geared towards the same people, don't make them "Historically" bad on releasing cameras."

I agree completely.
I don't think Canon is historically 'bad' in releasing cameras at all.

"Now, if they came out with a XL-3 this summer. How is that going again't their "History"?? They don't have a HISTORY. Do they?

I think they do, and think many people here would agree with me.
Canon has a pattern, a business model, that they have always followed when it came to releasing cameras.

Releasing an XL2 replacement this summer would go against their history in that they have never replaced a camera in less than a year. Again, this is all under the assumption that this hypothetical HDV cameras we're discussing would replace the XL2. I don't think we'll see another generation of the XL2 for another year and a half, possibly longer. Also, if they released an XL2 replacement this summer, if would be the first time they released a replacement without putting the 'old' camera on rebate first.

"And i seriously DOUBT that XL2 owners would be pissed. First off, it ain't enough of em to make a big deal. "

I never said it would make a difference to Canon, I just said I thought current XL2 owners would be upset. And I think they would be, whether there are 10 of them, or 10,000.

"Secondly, the percentage of those few that do own XL-2's that want HD, have a reason to remain true to Canon so they wont complain, they actually will be happy."

Perhaps if they were to offer some sort of rebate or trade in for new owners (like you mentioned), if not... I know I'd be upset if I just spent 5,000 dollars on a camera that a company decided to replace 2 months later (and it was less than a year old to begin with). I remember when the DVX100a came out, quite a few DVX owners were upset because the upgrade happened rather quickly. And that wasn't a major format upgrade, like this would be.


"And Third of all...all the XL-1/s owners who never got the Xl2 (there's more of them then XL2 owners ya know) will welcome an XL3 HD/24p camera with OPEN ARMS!!

Yeah, they would. Of course that doesn't really have anything to do wiht whether or not current XL2 owners would be upset.

I guess you're trying to say that Canon wouldn't care about upsetting current XL2 owners, and that might be true. But that wasn't what I was commenting on originally.

"and you think canon will give a rats ass about the sales of the XL2 after the XL3 HD camera comes out???

I suppose not.
You're probably right on that.

Although I still doubt it will happen this year, but I hope I'm wrong.

I used to think that Canon would come out with the indie's dream camera.

Why, because they have no high end camera sales to hurt. But then the more I read up on Canon they wait until someone else does it and they try do it better.

If they do shock as and we get something sooner.

I think it'll be in the price range of the new JVC or Panny suggested retail price.

Hmmmm, Luis, you stated a pretty interesting idea. Canon could very well introduce a new line of cameras, their HDV line I suppose. But I don't know really and that's the way Canon wants it as we've stated before, Canon doesn't twiddle around with mockups and vaporware. They present the product right in front of you, fully functional, and when it's ready.

When talking about a GL1 type camera I was thinking about the size. More like the DVX100 not a shoulder mount camera. I would hope it would have 3ccd not 1. I'm just thinking they could keep the cost down with a fixed lens camera.

Also if the sales of the XL2 are down they will release something else.

"Also if the sales of the XL2 are down they will release something else."

I agree, and I think that 'something else' will be an HDV GL3.
This way Canon can get into the HDV game at the lower level, and not canibalize the sales of their higher end camera.

They updated the GL1 before they updated the XL1s, and I'm pretty sure they'll do it the same way this time around.

Also, the same little birdie who told me all about the XL2 before it was released last year also told me that the GL3 would be HDV, and released sometime in 2005. I didn't know whether or not to believe him then, but everything he told me about the XL2 wound up being true...so I guess he knows what he's talking about.

:)
Take it with a grain a salt
(should this be moved to Area 51 now?)

I wonder what kind of price range a GL3HD would be in? I agree with you Luis. I just don't see why Canon would just sit around waiting when everyone else is selling cameras. How many people got a Sony Z1 instead of XL2?

<<<-- Originally posted by Luis Caffesse :
Releasing an XL2 replacement this summer would go against their history in that they have never replaced a camera in less than a year. Again, this is all under the assumption that this hypothetical HDV cameras we're discussing would replace the XL2.
-->>>

Hmmmm, you may be on to someting there. I never looked t it like that.

Canon said "The XL2 will be our last Standad Definition (SD) pro camera"

Which may be a cleaver way of saying...."We will sell the XL-2 side-by-side with our ALL NEW line of HD pro-cameras"

never thought of it that way. And that in fact, may be EVEN MORE REASON Canon may hit the market with not the XL-3, but the "XV-1" or something like that!! *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com

I still find the pixel count of the XL2 to be a little odd. I know the 960 x 720 block wouldn't work as is because it uses non square pixels and the top and bottom are turned off. What if however you only take the square pixel middle of 853 x 480 and apply pixel shift which is 1.5 in both directions? You end up with a perfect 16x9 square pixel 1280 x 720 30p or 24p HD camera. I understand it wouldn't be perfect since it uses a lot of pixel shift. The horizontal pixel shift isn't all that different from what the SONY HD camera does. I am not sure how the vertical pixel shift would work out but if the camera only worked in progressive mode for HD then it at least wouldn't have to worry about fields.

853 times 1.5 pixel shift = 1279.5
480 times 1.5 pixel shift = 720

CANON already has the camera and block to give us a somewhat softer form of 720p HD.

The way it could work is to use the pixel shift on the whole 960 x 480 block. This would leave 1440 x 720 but with non-square pixels. The camera could then apply the 1.125 ratio squeeze to end up with 1280 x 720 pixels at 30p to fit perfectly into the HDV codec.

Maybe CANON will have a way to update the camera. If not maybe they plan on using the same CCD block. CANON doesn't make CCD blocks and they need to buy them so maybe they bought a CCD that would be future proof for the company.

"CANON already has the camera and block to give us a somewhat softer form of 720p HD...

....CANON doesn't make CCD blocks and they need to buy them so maybe they bought a CCD that would be future proof for the company."

If I'm not mistaken, those CCD chips were made by Panasonic, or their parent company.

I'm curious if we'll see those same chips in the new P2 camera at NAB.

OK everyone, take a deep breath and calm down. So much excitement on this thread, i had to take a deap breath and leave the room for a while.

Na, just kidding, the more we talk about these things, the more we learn.

I can't wait until the year 2050 when sony will finally have a super HD camera that we can plant just behind our eyeball, 1 million x zoom, built in ray gun. and thats just the consumer model.

FIRST CINEMA PICTURES

Canon bought the chips for the XL1 from Panasonic, but I don't think the XL2 chips come from Panasonic. Don't know for sure though.

Regarding an HD XL3 -- the challenge I see there is not the chips, but the lenses. The current lenses are designed around standard-def. Are they really actually good enough to support high-def resolution? If so, then great -- but if not, what do they do? Release an XL3 camera and change the lens mount (infuriating those who bought a variety of XL lenses?) Release an XL3 camera and not change the lens mount, which would just lead to people using SD lenses on their HD camcorder, getting sub-standard results and then complaining all across the web about how their new HD camera is "no good"?

Seems like a lose-lose proposition for Canon. Not to mention that there aren't any affordable interchangeable HD lenses out there.

I think JVC's likely going to trump Canon on this -- they're offering a 24P HDV camera with interchangeable lenses, and it looks an awful lot like an XL2 merged with a Z1. As long as the XL2's lenses/accessories aren't likely going to be compatible with an HD XL3, (and the VF and lenses probably *wouldn't* be compatible), what incentive would someone have to wait two or three years for Canon, when JVC will have their version on the market in three or four months?

That's why I think Canon's entry will be an HDV GL3.

Who knows, Canon may surprise us, but I think there are issues that there are no easy answers to (like the lenses) and therefore it'll likely be a while before there's an HD XL3.

Canon's stuck. They were late to the game with XL2, and now if they were to pop out a new cam the sales of the XL2 might crumble.

If they're even selling many at all.

Canon needs a "high=end" line, keep the xl2 for the "prosumers".
With their "high-end" line, they could do what they wanted. However, they like to make lenses, and I don't see any from them.

I'm sure they are having this argument internally almost every day, poor bastards *L*

An economist would say that the R&D and development of the XL2 is sunk cost. Canon should be focussed on their next product regardless of XL2 sales, and should be looking to produce the best product and the best sales they can.

Saying "oh no! Our XL2 was too little too late. Oh well, we don't want to introduce another of our products that will cripple its sales... we'll just let the other companies do that" is foolish.

I'm sure they'll release the best product they can when its ready. HDV has been around a long time with the JVC offering, and the FX1/Z1U offerings have probably kickstarted the market handily for another product.

Regarding lenses....

Here's something to drool over...
(pure fantasy by the way, I'm making this up)

Wouldn't it be spiffy if the HD-XL3 ditched the XL mount and instead incorporated a mini35 style adapter that let you use Canon EF lenses without any magnification factor?

That would be a trump card.

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven White : An economist would say that the
Saying "oh no! Our XL2 was too little too late. Oh well, we don't want to introduce another of our products that will cripple its sales... we'll just let the other companies do that" is foolish.
-->>>

But Canon are foolish. They don't have that "ground breaking" attitude. They are scared when it comes to releasing cameras and prefer to see that things are working well for a wee while before committing. I'm sure they are onto the HDV thing, but maybe in a year at the earliest. It seems, being late to the game is not somethnig Canon cares about - at all. And when they do come, they won't are what people are calling for, they'll just do whatever they want.

Last I checked, the MIGHTY CANON XL-1/XL-1s MINIDV CAMERA was a pioneer, trendsetting, and powerful camera that pretty much defined Digital Video for prosumers and has outsold any other camera in its class worldwide.

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen :
They are scared when it comes to releasing cameras. It seems, being late to the game is not somethnig Canon cares about - at all.
-->>>

So now Aaron,

I'm just curious. What type of camera(s) has Canon been "Scared" about releasing in their history of Digital Video?

Moreover, knowing that Canon was "Early" and "First" with removable lenses, please tell me.....what has Canon been "Late" about that ohhh, let's say JVC has been "Early" on? or that Sony has been "Early" on??


- Shannon W. Rawls

I tend to agree with Dylan regarding Canon bringing out a HDV- XM3, rather than build on the XL series.
It might pay them to stick to the consumer label and produce a rather more introductory type model than the FX1 to appeal to the many potential buyers who just can't see the Sony as being "consumer".
I somehow can't imagine that many people going to a Dixons store, (UK chain of camera shops as an example) picking up the FX1 and feeling comfortable with it - it's just not that type of camera, especially with more buttons and controls than you can shake a stick at; whereas, since Canon, who have a good sense of what new buyers require - with smaller form factors and easy controls - might consider a small HDV camera as ideally filling a gap in a growing market.

Robin

what has Canon been "Late" about that ohhh, let's say JVC has been "Early" on? or that Sony has been "Early" on??
You're kidding, right?

Canon doesn't innovate when it comes to DV cameras. The first XL1 was a repackaged Panasonic chipset. They added interchangeable lenses, yes, but that was about the extent of its "revolution".

Whereas JVC, love 'em or hate 'em, they're innovators. They introduced locked audio to the DV spec (not DVCAM, but to regular DV) with their DV500 and DV5000. They invented digital betacam-caliber quality with Digital-S (aka DVCPRO50 or D-9). They brought out the first consumer high-def camera, almost two years before Sony brought out theirs. They had their camera out before there even WAS an HDV standard. They didn't wait for someone to settle on a standard, they had it on the market for six months prior to their even being an announcement about HDV. And now they're extending the format with 24p and with higher-bitrate versions. They brought out (if not the first, one of the first) integrated hard disk recording systems. They brought out the first (and only) consumer HD recording system, D-VHS.

And Sony -- love 'em or hate 'em, Sony's innovating all the time. They brought out the first DV camera, the first usable HDV camera. Sony's probably been responsible for more failed formats than all the other manufacturers put together, and they're responsible for many of the most popular and successful formats too. But that's what they say about pioneers -- you can tell the pioneers by the number of arrows in their back.

Canon, by contrast, has innovated -- well, hold on, I'm thinking here... um... well, okay, they DID bring out the first progressive-scan 30p cameras, the Elura and Z1 (it was the Z1, wasn't it?) And the XL1 was the first DV camera with interchangeable lenses and viewfinder. Not bad, but hardly a resume of innovation that compares with JVC's and Sony's. When JVC made an interchangeable-lens DV camera, they also gave it 1/2" chips and made it compatible with the industry-standard 1/2" lens mount.

I'm not knocking Canon at all, but just pointing out what's already well-known and well-established: Canon does not lead the pack (in consumer video). They stay well at the back and wait until all other manufacturers have played their cards, before entering the game. JVC has been rampantly inventive, followed closely by Sony.

<<<-- Originally posted by Shannon Rawls :
So now Aaron,

I'm just curious. What type of camera(s) has Canon been "Scared" about releasing in their history of Digital Video?

Moreover, knowing that Canon was "Early" and "First" with removable lenses, please tell me.....what has Canon been "Late" about that ohhh, let's say JVC has been "Early" on? or that Sony has been "Early" on??
- Shannon W. Rawls -->>>

Shannon, it's simple mate. The Xl2 wasn't HDV. I mean they are part of the HDV consortium. They would have known or at least expected Sony to be working on one. JVC already had one, and look what Canon come out with - another SD camera. That is what I call scared. Even in interviews with Canon reps they state that they want to see how HDV goes before committing and they say that that's just how they work.

They did a great thing with the XL series interchangeable lenses, I will give them that - and it's understandable, they are great lens makers so they can feel a little more comfortable in pushing the envelope in that area and also leveraging adapters for their other lenses etc. But as far as most other things have gone, they tend to hold back a bit. How long was it from the DVX to the XL2? 2 years? I mean, that's damned slow. Sure they added 16:9 on small chips but they were damned slow to compete with it. They still stuck with no real manual lens, no line level input on XLR etc. Things that I would have thought, and almost assumed they'd at least put in - so on those things, they didn't even gain parity with the DVX, let alone innovate.

I love companies that risk - that offer us, consumers things we want, without having to have some proven sales record before doing it. I commend Panasonic on their risk with the DVX and it paid off really well for them. As much as I'd love a camera with the shape of the Xl series, I will probably become a Pansonic man from now on when my XM2 dies and I need another cam. I admire them.

Aaron

Barry & Aaron...I have read everything both you have said...word for word...

I still can't seem to see what Canon has been "LATE" on... please understand my question... "LATE" "LATE" "LATE" as in "TARDY" as in "NOT ON TIME!"

Who said anything about being 'innovators'? I never asked what did JVC and Sony 'invent' that Canon did not.

The XL2 was not HDV...so that makes them LATE??? you are kidding me, right?

Again....understanding Canons history....people keep calling them LATE and TOO SLOW and missing the race and all that. Yet Canon holds sway the gheart of indie filmmakers with their MIGHTY XL1 which was the #1 indie/shooter camera for YEARS!! So how is it that the LATE people end up with the most popular DV camera of all time?? Simply because they take their time? Seems to me if that's what you call late...hell, late is GOOD!

Boy Bull (other camera companies):
"Hey dad, why dont we run down the hill and f*ck one of those cows??"
Papa Bull (Canon):
"No son....let's walk down and f*ck 'em all!"

- Shannon W. Rawls

The two thing canons' got going for it- one it's probably tied w/ sony for selling consumer dv cameras and second , and most important , it's totally controlling the digital still camera market. This gives them a big cushion. They probably aren't that interested in setting trends with the xl cameras. They can afford to let the dust settle 'cause they're still making a kiling on their 20d and rebel slrs'. The market for the xl series is probably tiny in comparison. So they're probably laughing all the way to the bank. I would agree that a hdv gl3 is much more probable- of course that would rule out any progressive capturing- it'll protect their xl market and still compete with the sonys'- kurth

Okay, I see the difference in what you're saying, and I guess if you want to apply "late" as being "missing their window", then no, they haven't necessarily been late.

However, I wonder about the claim that the XL1 is the most popular DV camera of all time. I'd take a wild guess and say that Sony probably sold 5 to 10 times as many VX2000's and PD150's as Canon sold XL1s. The indie filmmaking community gravitated towards the XL1, but overall in the market, I'm sure the VX2000/PD150 has got to be the record holder for most-bought model.

The perception about Canon being late comes from the fact that in 1997, they introduced the XL1, and people immediately began speculating about the XL2. It didn't show up at NAB 1998. It didn't show up at NAB 1999. It didn't even show up at NAB 2000. Sony introduced the VX2000 and PD150, and Canon didn't respond. Finally, they released the XL1s -- with no major changes! So people REALLY got frothy for the XL2. In 2001, no XL2. In 2002, Panasonic put out the DVX, and still no XL2. In 2003, JVC put out high-def, and Panasonic released the DVX100A, and there was still no XL2. Canon showed up to trade shows still pitching the XL1s. It was sad, really. At DV Expo in 2003, the Panasonic and JVC booths were jam-packed, and Canon's was literally deserted. Everybody consoled themselves with the idea that when the XL2 came, it was going to blow us all away, and the key factor in the delay was that it was going to be high-def. After all, the HDV spec had been released in 2003, and it was already 2004, and Canon was a main underwriter of HDV...

Finally, in 2004, Canon released the XL2. With no HDV. Many people proclaimed it too little, too late. And two weeks later, Sony announced the FX1. And now, in 2005, Panasonic and JVC have both announced 24P HD cameras coming, and JVC is even extending the HD standard to include 24p. And not a word from Canon yet about their first HD model, or even a followup to the GL2. They're still selling the GL2 as a current model! The GL2 was introduced three years ago.

Whether you can consider them "late" or not is I guess a matter of opinion, but you certainly can't say that they're early or ahead of the game. They are very slow to introduce new models.

Canon's a little behind, but it's not too late. It's quite possible Canon corporate doesn't see high dv cams as a big profit center. So, development gets pushed of the bottom of the corporate "to do" pile.

But even if it just means reputation, Canon is lagging. I think if they can get a cam out by the time Panny releases theirs, they might stay in the game. Make it a single chip 2/3 24p 72060p cam, and they can stay in the game.

The company that puts out a native 16:9, 24p HD under $5,000 will be the big dog. Sure some will drop more, but not big sales. Sure there are TV networks, big production houses and Shannon Rawls who will pay top dollar, but alot more smaller companies and indie makers out there who can't drop $10,000 for a camera, $1,000's for cards and computer upgrades.

Maybe Panasonic will do it,,,I guess will find out in a few weeks.

Yeah, maybe they can give a cheaper version of the new cam with just 50Mbps with no P2. So effectively an updated DVX100a with DVCPROHD @ 50Mbps 16:9. Can that bandwidth DVCPro be put to tape? So you'd have something better than the Sony and Xl2 at the lower end and then also release a 100Mbps version with P2, under 10k.

I am really excited about this new one - but trying not to get too excited or I might end up suffering XL2itis.

Aaron

DVCPro50 is an SD format.

DVCProHD is 100mb/s

As of right now there is no such thing as a 50mb/s HD format from Panasonic.

Thanks Luis, I wasn't sure.

Cheers
Aaron

Is it just me or would Canon's REAL profit come not from a HD GL3, but rather a 24p SD GL3?

To me, that would be the killer. While HD is nice, the reality is most just aren't even equiped to handle it yet.

The DVX100A is still selling like hot cakes, yet even that is still a bit out of many people's price ranges.

IF the GL2 came with 24p, it'd be making a killing in sales at that price point I think. Plus the fact that accesories are quite a bit cheaper for the GL series.

I just think that an HD GL3 wouldn't have quite the same market share. Because in general only higher end users will be able to support HD properly anyway. And, because they are higher end users they would be willing to make fewer compromises (i.e. no manual lens option, fewer in-camera adjustments, built-in XLRs, smaller form factor, etc.).

I don't know, maybe it's just me.

Well - most HDV cams have in-camera support for switching to DV. So if the GL3 were HDV, it would likely also be true 16:9, DV, and, with any luck, progressive.

It's alway's been true - Canon's video line is a Consumer commodity not Professional. That's their words. Alura, ZR-series, all the way up to XL-anything. Sure, they blew it when the XL-2 was plain SD 24 frames or otherwise. The XL-1 needed a MA-100 or -200 to input balanced audio (Beechtek too). Balanced audio is a pro feature. XL-1s diddo. Pro features came only as a result of prosumer demand, and then only as an accessory. Same for the 16XLM Servo, the 14XL manual, the FU-1000 EVF, etc. The point is, I guess, is that Canon doesn't really know where they're going. The XL-2 is loaded with pro features but still comes from the consumer division, even at 5 g's list. They signed up for HDV, admitted that the XL-2 was their last SD camcorder (in the XL-series) and missed the bus. Canon Pro Camcorders? Prehap's the user and application better define Pro or not-Pro. If you pay me, I'm a Pro. The XL-2 hasn't paid for itself from a manufacturing standpoint. Tooling a factory, new componants from new vendors, distributing literature, service manuals, training service tech's, etc. It take two years to break even on camcorder technology. With XL-2 sales dragging don't expect a "XL-3HD" until late 2006. Maybe.

Maybe they'll realise that because it's dragging, they need to get their arse into gear and get an HDV out there. People will jump all over HDV, especially if the camera can do regular DV as well. I mean best of both worlds.

Aaron

After DVEXPO West and all the footage & reviews from the XL-H1 camera, and the fact that people actually purchased and have this camera in their living room. I find this to be an interesting thread.

And so...some of you were saying...ummmm....saying WHAT again?

I can't wait for the HVX to be released so we can see what it can do as well to help people (like me) make a sound decision.

Good job Canon & Panasonic.

- ShannonRawls.com

After DVEXPO West and all the footage & reviews from the XL-H1 camera, and the fact that people actually purchased and have this camera in their living room. I find this to be an interesting thread.

And so...some of you were saying...ummmm....saying WHAT again?

I can't wait for the HVX to be released so we can see what it can do as well to help people (like me) make a sound decision.

Good job Canon & Panasonic.

- ShannonRawls.com

Yo Shannon!!

Haven't seen your presence around the forum for a while...

I imagine you've been producing too much HD/HDV material for the Festival you've linked to!

Be nice to hear how you've been doing with your HD/HDV setup. I dare say you have learnt a lot in a very short period of time... about every aspect of shooting and delivering with this new level of equipment.

Also be nice to hear your thoughts on the Canon and Panasonic offerings given the fact that you want results - regardless of who provides them.

Steve, my man! How goes it. I've been able to peep in to my favorite DV website now and then, thank goodness for the "send an email when someone replies" feature this forum has. That's how I've been able to keep up, but yea, I've been busy. Not so much with producing projects, but rather I bought a house this summer and if anyone has ever bought a house that needed to be heavily modified to fit your lifestyle, then you know what I have been going through since August. (I only wish I owned acres of land and mountainous ranges like Douglas Spotted Eagle does!! I'm waiting on him to invite me to go horseback ridin' for a weekend *smile*) Plus the HDV Festival was a bit of work as well. We wrapped up last night with a huge party and a successfull year. Peep the pictures at the website and at the /redcarpet area.

CANON & PANASONIC....man-o-man, they both are hitting homeruns it seems. Mainly because of their 1080i/f/p resolution abilities. Sweet feature the HVX has to be able to do 720p, but honestly.....I kinda doubt....that anybody will be shooting in 720p on that camera when 1080 is sitting right there for them. Same went for the Z1U. I rarely find or hear about ANYBODY shooting that camera in DV mode...it just doesn't make sense when you have HDV at your fingertips. Now, the music video directors will love the 720p60 the HVX does, but otherwise.....I'm sure that cameras resolution button will be stuck in 1080.

Now, I am a Movie Maker. So I am talking in reference to MOVIE MAKING ONLY. Ergonomics and 'comfort' and 'switch placement' and all that means little when you have a full crew & set. People shooting F900's aren't complaining about how un-comfy it is, so neither should moviemakers complain about any other camera for the same purpose.

For CANON....*shakin' my head* I just love it! You have these mind blowing reports on their picture quality. I mean, did we expect anything less? At the DV Expo, they did what they always do. Show their stuff, let you fiddle around with it, tell their representatives to explain as much as they can, give their specs, and if you like it, you like it, if you don't you don't. I mean, there is just something to say about a 'matter of fact' company like that, that makes you "TRUST" in them. Here you have a company who didn't gas up the world with fancy ads and propoganda and mock-ups and all that crap. Then, for them to have it out and UP FOR SALE for people to buy....is awesome!

Now back to that Canon picture quality....
1080p24 High Definition camera that records on a MiniDV tape where 1 hour of footage only takes 12 gigs and your image can end up with movie-like picture quality and film-like movement right out the box.
LORD YES!!!
and for the Einsteins out there.....yes, I said "p". I don't care about all that other mumbo-jumbo...never have. The scientists who come and start reciting pythagorean theories as to why I should say 'f' and not 'p' and all that crap...... man, get outta here with all that junk. Hell, in reality, those that say 'p' should REALLY be saying 'f'!!!!! if you think about it. But since we are used to saying 'p' for what we are trying to accomplish, then it applies to this camera.

I know people don't like me for the way I talk and the things I say...but....ummm, so what. As long as Chris does, I'm good. *smile* I follow the DVINFO spirit...hardcore too! I come here to receive and give DIGITAL VIDEO INFORMATION TO A NETWORK OF GREAT PEOPLE. Unbiased and taking no sides. I have no books to sell or software to distribute, so I tell it like it is.

See guys, let ole' shanny shan hip you to something.......and make no mistake.........those "Internet DP's" who crunch numbers all day seemingly never shoot true modern-day Digital Video Movie Making "FOR REAL". You'll know who I'm talking about based on the replies I get to this thread. LOL I mean, they have every type of resolution chart ever made and a great big basement to shoot it in. And they all type 85 words-per-minute so they can come here and spit a bunch of one-sided propoganda about a manufacturers camera...but the REALITY IS....all these cameras are good! It's the SHOOTER that sucks. My dad told me when I was a kid.... "SON, A BAD MECHANIC BLAMES HIS TOOLS!" when I would be fixing on my motocross bikes, go-karts, remote control cars and automobiles as a kid. Ever since he told me that...I always took the blame if something didn't work out like it should you, not the tools I used.

I just finished my 3rd year doing a PURE DIGITAL film festival that screened 171 films over 5 days with a 2k projector on a 45-foot movie screen seating 161 people at a time. Last year I projected 113 and 112 in 2003. This year I screened 1083 submissions from January to October along with my staff and last year it was about 800 and in 2003 I reviewed about 1300. This year was the highest year of people submitting HD projects of all flavors of HD. I've turned down projects that shot with Sony F900 that looks like utter CRAP and gave awards to people who shot with Hi8 cameras that look like a million bucks!! So I DARE TO SAY that I have probably seen with my own two eyes more digital videos from probably every digital camera ever made then anybody on this website....

My point is, I am no Spring-Chicken when it comes to the FINISH LINE of digital video movie making....so take my word for it people.....Forget all the B***LS****T you see/hear when you read/hear people going back and forth about 'f' vs. 'p' vs. 'i' vs. 480 vs. 720 vs. 1080 vs. this guys plug-in vs. that guys plug-in vs. abberations vs. lattitude vs. this vs. that! It's all about YOU and your DP and your CREW and how much HANDS ON TRAINING AND KNOWLEDGE you have from shooting correctly on REAL-WORLD SETS and bringing back REAL-WORLD FOOTAGE and correctly cutting it to make a REAL-WORLD DVD to finish & distribute to the REAL-WORLD.

So yes... as far as I am concerned the Canon XL-H1 is a 1080p24 High Definition camera that will allow you to record a movie-like picture with film-like cadence on a MiniDV tape where 1 hour of footage only takes 12 gigs. and from what I hear from you good people who put this puppy to the test and seen its image on a DECENT SIZE MONITOR with DECENT LIGHTING pointing to a set with DECENT COLORS, then Canon has hit a homerun!

Now PANASONIC......wow! Ok, there's not much to say about this, because not enough people have tested and used it the way it SHOULD and seen the footage the way it SHOULD to make a statement like they have the Canon XL-H1. But I will say this....

Why does a McDonalds burger taste different then a BurgerKing burger? I mean, they both have a soft sesame seed bun right? Both burgers have a meat patty and lettuce and tomatoes and ketchup and onions and all that, right? For some damn reason, if you were to do a blindfolded taste test...you would know the difference between a Mickey Deez burger vs. The King!

Thats how Panasonic is. Their picture image is just flat-out SCRUMCIOUS!! Aside from the speech I gave above, This year at the fest we had some people who shoot with the Pany SDX-900 camera. a few of them sucked so bad you would have thought they used a VHS camera. But....there are two in particular that looked absolutely STUNNING. Same thing about the DVX100a. MANY MANY MANY of the films this year shoot with the DVX100a. Some were junk, some were cool, and a FEW....looked like Panavision! Panasonic just 'does it right' when it comes to making a pretty picture. One guy shot with a Panasonic DVC80 Leica Lens and it was Niiiiiiiiiiiiccccccceeeeee!!

SO NOW....that said.....do you think for one minute they are going to drop the ball with the new HVX-200?? HELL NO! Now we are getting reports that the HVX-200 cameras tested at DV Expo West just sucked and were dissapointing. But I don't buy it. We are talking DVCPRO-HD with a LEICA LENS here people. How can that be so? What I think is Panasonic is going to lower the BOOM on people and just blow anything and everything in or near its class out the water! Yea it sucks the lens don't change...but hell, who changes their lenses that much anyhow at this price point? And from what I read...the lens it has...don't need changin'! *smile*

I'm just waiting for Panasonic to release this beast. I will be HELLA PISSED if they don't release it in December like they said. Besides that, when they do.....The HVX-200 is going to be WICKED! I'm waiting to hear "Yea, Shannon, we're shooting with a HVX200 for this one." I bet people will work pro-bono just to see how the project turns out.

THE REAL TEST.....

Since there are people who CLEARLY take sides when it comes to manufacturers and will use their equipment even if it SUCKS because they are brainwashed......here's the real test.....

I'd like to see what the Panasonic users have to say about H1.
I'd like to see what the Canon users have to say about the HVX.

Now THAT my friends is the real test. We already seen how CANON & PANASONIC users convicted Sony of Witchcraft for making the Z1U and burned them at the stake.....regardless of how pretty the picture was. But there is no way to do that here. So I guess we'll see Steve.

I'm gone!

- ShannonRawls.com

Shannon, looking forward to seeing you in Burbank this week!
Just for a single comment...the reason Canon calls it "F" rather than "P" is because for some reason, they believe in truth in advertising. Imagine that....a company that is honest with potential buyers. Myself...I'm outraged that they'd tell the truth. :-)

Mr. Shannon Rawls,

You were right on, with your Canon HDV prediction. Can you conjure up in your crystal ball, when and what will be Sony's response to the XL1 and HVX200?

Thanks.

Shannon: don't forget that the Canon can also output true uncompressed HD via HD-SDI, which you could then capture in a variety of formats on a computer-based recording and editing setup. If the HVX200 is desirable because it can record a 1280x1080 data stream at 100 Mbps, how much sweeter would it be to record 1920x1080 10-bit Prospect HD or Avid DNxHD at up to 220 Mbps, and then start editing the moment you finish recording? And get a decent interchangeable zoom lens to boot, plus the ability to record to inexpensive miniDV tapes in a pinch which are available at almost any corner store? This could be a very interesting showdown for indendent film-makers...

Shannon: don't forget that the Canon can also output true uncompressed HD via HD-SDI, ...

As opposed to fake uncompressed HD over HD SDI?
(sorry, couldn't resist) ;-)

As opposed to fake uncompressed HD over HD SDI?

No, as opposed to the "real HD" which all the HDV naysayers said the HVX200 would offer, except it's not even full raster and is compressed about 15:1 compared to the HD outputs on the Canon camera. I find it interesting that people are raving about the possibility of recording DVCProHD on memory cards costing $200 per minute of storage, but aren't equally excited about the prospect of getting "REAL real HD" from a $9,000 camera. Maybe because Canon doesn't know how to generate that sort of buzz, or doesn't care to do so?

:-)

No, as opposed to the "real HD" which all the HDV naysayers said the HVX200 would offer, except it's not even full raster and is compressed about 15:1 compared to the HD outputs on the Canon camera. I find it interesting that people are raving about the possibility of recording DVCProHD on memory cards costing $200 per minute of storage, but aren't equally excited about the prospect of getting "REAL real HD" from a $9,000 camera. Maybe because Canon doesn't know how to generate that sort of buzz, or doesn't care to do so?

:-)

You'll get no argument from me. I just keep chuckling at all these folks throwing around the term "true" or "real" HD when we never heard this kind of silliness back when everyone was taking potshots at DV. They had other things to say, but I can't recall the "true/real" comments at the time.
FWIW, it's ALL HD, excepting the JVC HD10 and HD1, and the only reason those aren't, is because they don't/didn't meet the ITU 709 spec. The ATSC spec doesn't have a single word in it about compression, lack thereof, full or sub raster, or other aspects that folks keep tossing about.

I just keep chuckling at all these folks throwing around the term "true" or "real" HD when we never heard this kind of silliness back when everyone was taking potshots at DV.

Yeah, ya got me there. I just figured it'd be fitting now to point out that if 100 Mbps is good, 1.5 Gbps must be better. ;-)

Yeah, ya got me there. I just figured it'd be fitting now to point out that if 100 Mbps is good, 1.5 Gbps must be better. ;-)

Yes but for many filmmakers/video producers that 1.5Gbps is irrelevant as they have no way of capturing/recording it.

For the same reason, not that many people on these boards are excited about, say, the Panavision genesis or the Arri D20 (though I expect some are) - that level of kit is out of their reach.

Dylan,

It is not too hard to capture the uncompressed 4:2:2 HD-SDI output, certainly you can do it for less than the cost of the camera, so many are considering this workflow for the best quality images.