Hey, I've read through just about every thread based on the new HD cameras and I have to say that HDV just doesn't seem to make anyone happy at all, except for those that have stated their praise for the Sony cameras so far. Everyone else though, seems to be waiting. My question is, why?

Look, I know that MPEG2 compression isn't a good idea on paper, but just by using the Sony cameras and fiddling with all the options and seeing some of the results on the net (Mini-35 video and some music video), I can tell that these HDV cameras are capable of A LOT more than people are saying. Dropouts are a possibility, but so far nobody who has an HDV camera has said that a dropout has totally ruined their shoot and some say they've experienced no dropouts at all!

I've played with the XL2 and the FX1 (no Z1 since Sony's got a policy of not selling their Proline camera stuff in retail stores or even their Sonystyle Stores or even the Sony Metreon in San Fran!) and I must say that the FX1's picture looks a lot better, but that's not saying much as the XL2 is freaking awesome for an SD camera. 24p mode is about the ONLY thing I can think of that HDV cameras have failed at miserably on paper and in Sony's Cineframe approach, though JVC has found a workaround apparently so the lack of 24p is no longer an issue.

Low light is another pointless issue I hear about. Honestly, what independent filmmaker would be shooting in immensely low light anyway?

You know, I don't want to hear about compression on the audio, if that's such a problem, then there are some simple solutions, like using a mixer, sound recorder, or even a serperate non-HDV camera for audio.

I know people are jumping all over Panasonic's DVCPROHD solution as the Holy Grail of prosumer video solutions, but surely HDV can be useful too! ^_^ I don't mean to start a fire or anything with this thread, I'm just saying that HDV isn't as bad as most say it is in its current form and it can only get better! =)

P.S. I still don't know what camera I want, Panasonic's or JVC's but I'll have to wait until NAB to see.

Jack, this all happened 10 years ago with DV, too. And it will happen with whatever else comes down the pike.
Aside from the math, from the logic, from the thought processes, the correct response (IMO), is to say "look at the picture" and if you like it, great. If you don't. Great. Go find something better or spend more money.
For 5K, it's simply amazing. I expect the new JVC to be very impressive, and same with the new Panasonic. They cost more, but more importantly, they've got the marketing and developmental benefits and mistakes of the Sony cameras to examine and follow up with. That's why this industry is always so "leap-frog" because everyone looks at whatever anyone else is doing and one-ups it.
HDV is a great format for what it is supposed to be. It's only going to develop upward from here, IMO. Is it perfect? No. But for 5K, it can't be.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : ... Everyone else though, seems to be waiting. My question is, why?
... I still don't know what camera I want, Panasonic's or JVC's but I'll have to wait until NAB to see. -->>>

Am I the only one who found the irony in this?

For me personally, since there isn't a way to currently distribute the final product, I don't see the point. It's also a first generation format AND camera, which scares off a lot of people.

I agree wholeheartedly with Spot and with Rhett.

For $5,000, and it's available now, the Z1 is absolutely amazing. For $3,300 the FX1 is completely amazing. They really do record high-definition video on an $18 tape, and they're available now.

Now, if they'd included 24p as a legitimate offering, I would have had one already. Probably 85% of my work nowadays is shot in 24p, so not having it is not an option. So before going to high-def, I am waiting. The demand isn't there yet, for what I do (still haven't had a single client ask about HD, much less demand it). So I have no problem with waiting, and things will only get better by waiting -- JVC's announcement is off-the-hook cool, and Panasonic's forthcoming camera sounds very tantalizing as well. Both offer the 24p option.

So, as to why we're waiting, the answer is - why not? Things can only get better. But if you have a need now, and can justify the purchase now, the Z1 is a great little camera, absolutely revolutionary. These cameras don't take long to pay for themselves -- I'm shooting a reality pilot this Thu/Fri/Sat, and in just those three days I'll bank enough to pay off my DVX again (for about the 30th time). If they'd demanded HD for this shoot, you'd better believe I would have gone out and bought a Z1 to do it.

If you're in the business and you make money with your camera and your clients are asking for HD now, get the Z1 now -- waiting would be silly. If not, or if 24p is your thing, I think it'd be silly to spend 5 grand on a camera that doesn't do it, when we're due to see two announcements of cameras that will do it, just four weeks from now. More choice = good for the consumer. Even if you decide (after seeing the competition) to go with the Z1, as competition could lead to lower Z1 prices.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rhett Allen : <<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : ... Everyone else though, seems to be waiting. My question is, why?
... I still don't know what camera I want, Panasonic's or JVC's but I'll have to wait until NAB to see. -->>>

Am I the only one who found the irony in this?
-->>>



Heh, heh, heh, glad you noticed! ;)

I support HDV, but I'm mostly talking about those that totally deny HDV entirely simply because of the current technicalities.

But yes, I do understand that there is an immensely limited amount of distribution options at the moment. It's a crying shame too; you'd at least think the VTRs would cost a lot less because of this fact, but I guess not. It's not like everyone has D-VHS or something!

I was mocked exactly 6 years ago when my XL-1 came in (on St. Patty's Day 1999) and I was going to use it to shoot my first feature film (www.skyefalling.com) that summer. When I bought an Apple, G3 400 mhz Power Mac, (a month before Final Cut Pro 1.0 shipped, so I went with Premiere 5.1--ugh, then I moved to FCP 1.0 later that year) to edit my film with then pricey $3000 internal drives (120 gb total), I was laughed at. Those same people use DV (DVX100A, etc.) and an Apple with FCP.

Same thing with the HD10, and now the FX1. That's life!

heath

Here's one for you...

Back in 1995 I started a website...everyone said I was a "geek" for using computers so much. Then by 1996 I got a job at the biggest television station in NH as the Webmaster...made more money over the next 4 years then just about anyone in the station! The entire time there almost all of them said the "web is a fad".....yes, they said "FAD"! Well, almost all of them lost their jobs when the station was sold. By that time I'd already made my money and mark. Thank God, I didn't listen!

If I had listened, wow, I'd feel really stupid right now. HDV (and whatever the off spring will be) in the television world is like Netscape was to the Web. It's going to bring millions of people into the fold by providing low-cost high definition video....for pros and mom's and dad's! It's definately going to be the foundation for all visual media in the future...and the future looks infinate to me with digital.

Something to keep in mind - they're already talking about outfitting theaters with 3D capabilities. Lucas and Cameron are pitching it as we speak....I'm positive that HD and HDV are the platforms on which that stuff will be built. It's so obvious! We all argue about cameras, but the real exciting thing to talk about is the formats and distribution. In 5 years, we'll all be able to shoot high quality HD, burn it in HD and display in on all home televisions. There are distribution paths opening up for indie filmmakers all the time, but in 5 years it will have shaken down enough so we'll have an easier time. My take? HD cable and Sat..."On Demand" indie movie libraries. I've got "On Demand" now and I can see them wanting content really soon...the more they got the more it's like the Internet. It's an all you can eat thing....100 movies on demand or 1,000,000 movies? It's totally possible, and we can definately make use of it. They'll have "Viewer Rated" indie films...and if you're film is good it'll pop up on a million televisions! Cool!!!!!

Good points Chris

<<<If you're in the business and you make money with your camera and your clients are asking for HD now, get the Z1 now -- waiting would be silly. If not, or if 24p is your thing, I think it'd be silly to spend 5 grand on a camera that doesn't do it, when we're due to see two announcements of cameras that will do it, just four weeks from now. More choice = good for the consumer. Even if you decide (after seeing the competition) to go with the Z1, as competition could lead to lower Z1 prices. -->>>

Very well said. To put it another way, why should I drop $5K now when, in all likelihood, there will be the next generation camera out from Panny or JVC in a short time. Looks like the JVC will be interchangeable lenses. After these cams are released, how much do you think the F1/Z1 will sell for? My guess will be south of $4K brand spankin' new, and less on the used market.

I imagine that if I was shopping for a new camera now, I would wait for NAB. But I am glad I bought my FX1 in time to take it to Hawaii for Christmas and more recently, to Acapulco. If I had waited, it would not have killed me, I am sure. But I would not have six hours of HDV footage. Some of which is quite spectacular.

Now, if I could just get over the impulse to shoot clouds at sunrise and sunset. I think I must have a couple of hours of it. I just love watching it on the 60" Sony HDTV. I tried that with my little palmcorder, and it was OK. But with the FX1 it is just stunning. I turn on some music and watch it over and over.

If I had waited, it would have been OK. But, you know, I am having fun, and that has to count for something.

Thanks Bob! lol

If you need it, buy it. That's why I bought a G5 1.6 ghz in Sept. 2003, right when the G5 Power Macs shipped. I needed it then for my DVD project with a release date a month away. Otherwise, I would've waited for the dual 2 ghz.

heath

Originally posted by Steven Gotz
I imagine that if I was shopping for a new camera now, I would wait for NAB.
Yeah, I did the unthinkable as well. Bought a first generation camera 2 months before NAB.

But, I needed to upgrade my gear for a project, and this was the best way to go for me at the time. The project more than paid for the camera, so even if something comes out at NAB that's amazing I can just work it into the next project.

However, I've been so pleased with my FX1 that I think it will last me at least until next April. I might even get another before then.

By then we might have some second (and even third) gen HDV cams and who knows what it'll be like.

I'll be happy with my FX1 for another year, even if it is suddenly obsolete a month form now.

It could take a while to become obsolete. As long as the people shooting with it continue to shoot quality footage, anyway. Once all the best pros are using something else, then the rest of us may have to follow.

Or, maybe, we will annoy everyone and upgrade before they all do. We did it once, we can do it again!

The leading edge is an expensive place to be, but it certainly is entertaining. It is not my normal position. I usually wait too long to upgrade. Which is why I went from a Canon ZR10 to a FX1 without stopping at a decent 3-chip SD camera first.

I shifted from the DVX100 to HRD-FX 1 about a month ago, I come from a film backround (mostly 16mm) and I don´t regret switching even for a second, the FX-1 is spectacular.

Even though there is no easy distribution at the moment, I want HD now because I can reuse it in the future. I can use anything I film from now on in 5-10 years because it is HD, with my DVX100 that same footage will be outdated and virtually worthless in the future.

Selling old stockshots in new projects makes up a good part of my income, and switching as soon as possible is the best solution in my case, especially when the FX-1 is so great. No drop outs so far.

Coming from film I have always hated the low resolution of standard definiton, compared to anything and everything SD is total crap, High Def is the inevitable solution and its here now! And that is not a day too soon.

Hnnn, strong opinion their Eirik! ^_^

I agree, HD is the only way to go from this year on.

Yecchh. I think that HDV is a bastard format. There isn't a good way to distibute yet, the compression sucks and I'm just tired of jumping from one format to the next. Since the inception of video there have been 75 different video formats. Here's 76.

I'm really tired of having to educate producers and directors about why they should not use HDV. They see HD and get all sweaty. It's not pretty.

I shoot a lot of video. I'll probably shot some HDV at some point, but I will not enjoy it. Unless I'm shooting something interesting.

Interestingly, there has been an upswing in Super16 film shooting for TV and feature films. HD video isn't slowing, but that's HD, not HDV.

I suppose at some point HDV will supplant MiniDV, or coexist. Who knows. I'm just not a fan. Deep down inside, I'll always be a film guy. Mmmmm film.

The great thing about film is it's future proof. When properly stored it will last for hundreds of years. If you need an HD master, you can transfer to HD. If you need some future video format twenty years from now, again, just do a transfer. It's cheaper.

NFL Films Inc. shoots literally miles of S16 film each year. They shoot only with film and archive it at their facility in NJ. There is always one camera running at high speed durng a game. Most video cameras cannot get smooth HS because it's only going 60 fields per and must interpolate. If these guys new of a better way, I think they'd do it.

Some cinematographers were commenting on how when they trasferred film to HD, they saw additional depth and detail in the new HD transfers that they never saw before.

Newer is not always better. Am I saying that everyone should start shooting film? No, but I'm sure Kodak and Fuji would be excited. I just don't think that HDV is a good idea.

I know I'm gonna get jumped.

Oh yeah, now we're seeing the beginning of the end for video tape, with the new P2 and XDCAM formats.

I'm curious to see what happens. The networks and affiliates are slowly adopting these formats for ENG. I'm curious to see what happens.

Jumped? Perhaps.

You are missing the point though. The HDV output is easily distributed to the right customers. A simple $249 player does the trick nicely and if people are willing to pay extra for HDV instead of DV, they are certainly willing to pay a little more for a new player.

Wide distribution is a problem, but some customers are more than ready to have their wallet lightened by the first really good HDV shooter to come along. I just hope that the people offering HDV are good at their job so they don't spoil it for the rest of us.

And it flat out looks better than DV. (All of the other skilled positions being equal)

It will be a long time before tape goes away. The solid state storage is not really quite ready to take it's place. Eventually perhaps, but not this year or next.

Film is just too expensive for many of us. The quality of film over video is a completely separate topic and better left to others. I will stay out of it.

Mark,

I understand the "formats and cameras" changing fast--it gets annoying. But you've obviously never shot with HDV, so you're dismissing it before you try it? That's what happened to me 6 years ago when I bought an XL-1: people hated DV without trying it.

I'd recommend trying HDV, like the FX1 or Z1, before making judgments.

heath

I'm not a huge fan of MiniDV either. Even though I own an XL2, it's not my principal camera.

The technology changes so quickly that, unless I can justify it by client demand, or I'm making boatloads of money and my accountant says I have to buy something, it's not really worth it for me to own anything else video.

I don't really want to shot HDV. Yes I am knocking it without trying it. At some point I'll check it out and find out more about it.

I've shot HD and film and much prefer those to the lower end formats. I'm not a luddite, I just haven't really seen any video that's truly pleasing to my eye. Some film ain't that hot either. If you've ever seen an 8x10 inch chrome (color transparency), or printed your own 16x20 color prints from 8x10 negs, you know what I'm talking about.

I'm as big a gadget freak as anyone, but I take a wait and see approach most of the time. Just because Sony, or someone says "JUMP" we don't always have to jump.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark Sasahara :
Just because Sony, or someone says "JUMP" we don't always have to jump. -->>>

Strange way to interpret Sony's reaction to the 'natural' developments in video 'advancement' brought about by the growing market in 16:9 and HD FTA broadcasting.

To be honest, the FX-1/Z1 are Sony's reaction to the short-comings of JVC's first foray into low-cost HD (HDV) video equipment, and it's more accurate to say that Sony "JUMPED" to the calls from users of boards such as this, when they set about creating their low-cost HD (HDV) solution.

I'm sure JVC's soon to be released HDV cam with 24p is also a reaction to user's requests and the success of the FX-1/Z1, rather than corporate Nazi's determining the purchases of mindless consumers.....

I know that I will never know it all, so on every job and everyday I learn something new. I have many resources for learning and one of them is this place.

Perhaps I'm a bit early in pronouncing the demise of tape.

I'm stating my own thoughts and opinions. This thread was seeking opinions, so I gave mine.

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your reply there; I think it's very important not to knock any new format until you try it. It's a mistake to get hung up on the numbers and to make an assumption on this format's image quality sight unseen, just because of the compression.

I am one of those people that feel that the sooner tape is gone completely, the better off we are all around as content creators.

One thing though, I'm not at all sure what you mean by the statement "Just because Sony, or someone says "JUMP" we don't always have to jump."

We jump with our dollars -- as end users we jump by spending. And if we don't want to jump, we don't have to. There are a wide variety of other alternatives to HDV. Nobody has to buy into it. Sony isn't forcing anyone to buy anything, and they certainly aren't saying "jump." All they have done is respond to a market demand for a low-cost high definition format. In other words, the situation is really the opposite of what you're describing. The marketplace has told the manufacturers to jump -- and they're asking how high.

Heath and all: My sincerest apology if I insulted anyone, I did not mean to diss anyone, you are good people and your knowledge is valuable. I am just expressing my dislike of the format. My apologies if I was copping a superior attitude.

Jack seemed to be asking for opinions, so I sounded off. Apparently I am the lone dissenter.

Isn't asking the question "are people being too hard on HDV"?, in the HDV forum a bit self serving? Preaching to the choir?

Thanks Chris, you posted while I was writing my apology.

<<<Isn't asking the question "are people being too hard on HDV"?, in the HDV forum a bit self serving? Preaching to the choir?>>>

Of course it is. But at the same time, there are a lot of folks who have made irrational decisions based on what they think they know. Back when we were renting fairly high end SP cams, I remember very distinctly telling a documentary film maker that "DV would never make waves in the professional video industry." He gently reminded me of that when I wrote my first book on DV. I saw the JVC camera nearly 2 years ago now, and shot it for the first time just a little over a year ago. I swore HDV would suck too. I've now seen images from JVC's first offering and second offering, and I own two Z1's. I've bought into the format because I was convinced to see the images myself, shot by myself, viewed on the correct monitor, and I was no longer a detractor, but rather an evangelist of the format. The days of the 100,000 digital acquisition format are just about over. This year, between Sony and Panasonic, you'll see serious challenges to their own very high end cameras. Are these cameras as robust? Not by a long shot.
But for television-only/DVD/BD delivery, or limited theatre distribution.....man o' man but I'd hate to be selling any cam over 50K right about now.

So, the discussion is healthy for a number of reasons, not the least of which is getting a few to take a second look at the format, which from your post, you might be considering.

The HD10 was okay, but the FX1's I've used are INCREDIBLE. I can't wait for a 24p version!

heath

Thanks Douglas.

<<<-- Originally posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle : <<< The days of the 100,000 digital acquisition format are just about over -->>>

Spot, considering that you generously admitted your earlier proclamations for or against various formats, wouldn't this fall into the "never say never" category also? Considering the progression of cameras that have superceded the Sony/Panasonic HD offerings, from the here now (Viper) to the almost-here-now (Dalsa, D20, Genesis, Kinetta), all of which are at least at the 6 figure mark or considerably more; isn't it probably safe to say that these systems will likely be supplanted in years to come, and that HD as we know it will continue to evolve as a format, both in the low end and the high end? The one thing that is going to be interesting is that as the resolution of a system grows, the more demand is placed on the optics, making the current DV/HDV camcorder price point a potentially tricky one to maintain down the road.

You're right, Heath, i should have qualified that by saying that they won't be the cam sought after for the more general use. Obviously, George Lucas won't ever be using a Panasonic HDX and Steven Spielberg won't be using an HDV cam for their next epic films. But....as film makers, documentarians, television field production, ENG/EFP cams come down in price, the amount of content and sales of cameras used for creating that content go up. I do believe that in another 10-15 years the chasm will be so narrow (barring the economy becoming ridiculous) that it won't much matter whether you're spending 5K vs 50K on a cam. There will still be Vipercams of some sort, but will they cost 150K and require a huge support team? I doubt it.
But for me to broadly say that the days of those cams are over is incorrect, so I'll retract it or qualify it.

I think that's a fair assessment. What HDV seems to be doing is pulling the low end a lot closer to the mid-range professional end, much as DV did. I would expect the Sony and upcoming JVC HDV cameras to take a big bite out of the 1/2" chip cameras and maybe even to eat in to the DSR500/570, and equivalent, market a bit. I'm not ready to dump the DSR500 for a 1/3" chip "handycam" type HDV camera...but if I were in the market for a 570 today, I would have some serious late night thinking sessions about it before I'd commit that money. HDV from the 1/3" chip camera isn't as good as DVCAM from a DSR570, but the difference in cost may make the quality not all that much of a difference--ie., if you can get perfectly good acceptable quality for most things for $5K, does it make sense to spend $25K for something a bit better? Some of us could do much of our day-to-day shooting with a Z1 and then rent the better camera when necessary and probably be money ahead. Of course, the issue of a fully professional 2/3" chip camera is still there and isn't going to change...but you know that if HDV flies, then it won't be long before we start seeing 2/3" chip HDV cameras. It happened pretty quickly with DV.

Let's see what Sony are planning for NAB, I think there is another surprise coming!

In theory, HDV is the next step for the people using DV. Time will tell, of course.

heath

Not if this (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=42127) ends up being as good as people are hoping. :)

We'll have two HD formats, hopefully both in the same price range.

Aaron

Price is the only thing left to determine the HD scene :). If it really is priced to compete with the Z1 (as has been said by Jan) then I think we'll see HDV become a consumers format.

Once the playing field is even and every camera is high def, then there will be the same chasm between high end cameras and prosumer cameras as there is now.

Big professional broadcast lenses and primes will always be expensive for most mortals, and the physics of light means that those lenses will still have to be a certain size.

At the moment HDV may allow an indie to make a movie that can be projected on a big screen or get a decent film out. But while everyone is celebrating that we can now create high res images on a budget, you can bet that there are developments going on in the high end world which move the goalposts yet again! Everything is relative. Once people get used to HD it won't be so special anymore, and if the high end develops even high res and clearer pictures there will be the same relative difference between low end and high end again.

In other words I think the really high end equipment sector is the dogs tail, and we are the head trying to chase it.

Everyone,

Nothing will really ever change in that regard: high-end and low-end cameras (and mid-range) will always exist, in whatever format is out there.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : Once the playing field is even and every camera is high def, then there will be the same chasm between high end cameras and prosumer cameras as there is now.

Big professional broadcast lenses and primes will always be expensive for most mortals, and the physics of light means that those lenses will still have to be a certain size.

At the moment HDV may allow an indie to make a movie that can be projected on a big screen or get a decent film out. But while everyone is celebrating that we can now create high res images on a budget, you can bet that there are developments going on in the high end world which move the goalposts yet again! Everything is relative. Once people get used to HD it won't be so special anymore, and if the high end develops even high res and clearer pictures there will be the same relative difference between low end and high end again.

In other words I think the really high end equipment sector is the dogs tail, and we are the head trying to chase it. -->>>

A spot-on assessment, Simon (and Heath), imo... The high end will not stand still, and even now there are much higher spec cameras than CineAltas and Varicams around, if you want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars (which I'd love to!!).

But at least we might get to see the back of DV!! ;)

However, could it not be argued that the static factor is human perception (or at least effectively so in relative time terms - i.e. excluding evolution!), and so whilst better and better cameras can always be made, we are starting to reach the flat spot on the 80-20 rule curve of quality vs cost?