Just finished the 2nd of two music videos today (last week was a dance hall reggae joint and this weekend was an experimental rock one). Both are planned to be aired on Cable TV and go to DVD for showing off, so I had the DP's shoot in CF30 for better TV broadcasting.

I have no audio reports to make because both shoots were MOS with music playback only. We shot in HD to basically increase the "Production Value" and the bragging rights for the Director/DP's to say they shot in HD and so they can always make an HD master if they wish. When I told the directors of both videos that the downconversion would look better then recording in DV mode on this or another camera they were like "Uhhhhhh, yea right Shannon". I said, "OK, just wait and see."

Now....back to this CF30 thing.......I knew it was nice, but DAYUMM.....have you guys seen some of this CF30 stuff? I mean WOW. The G&E dept. lit both videos pretty good using HMI's on both shoots and all kindsa color gels and flags and scrims and bounces and what not.

The picture was nice on the Z1U monitor, but it wasn't until we captured the correctly lit footage that I became THE MAN! *smile*

Ok, check it.....how many of you guys watch Music Videos on Cable (BET or MTV)?? You know, the booty shakin, glossy painted bentley's & hummers with 30" rims and rock bands with glassy colors and smooth buttery skin babes 1/2 naked in the nightclub type videos.

Notice that 'hyper-real' look that makes everybody skintone glow wonderfully and gleam in the light while the blacks are pure black and the greens are pure green and all that.

Yea, it's sorta like that!

One of the videos didn't have a stylist, so the actors came in ther own clothing, and someone wore a BRIGHT RED shirt (a big no-no for DV). Well, guess what...that bright red shirt...looked, well...bright red. (not overbearing and not glowing like a neon sign) Like it would have if we shot on film!!! I am going to run some tests on colors as a result of this, because it seems that the Bright Red that I would forbid people to wear when shooting DV, is now allowable in HDV. crazzzy!

As we watched the footage on a regular TV (for raggae) and a RGB projector & 8ft screen (for rock) while capturing the footage to MAC computers it was crazy to see it. Talk about pleasing a client!!!! You would think I just saved earth from a meteor attack they way they were happy after each shoot.

It would be hard-pressed for someone to be able to tell if this CF30 was Film or Video. Honestly, I can get away with CF30 in a narrative movie and just lie and "TELL" people that it was 24p, and they would be like "wow, those 24p cameras are Cooooool!" (however, since I know better, I still like CF24 better)

I'm a PC guy, so I sat back and let the MAC guys capture everything. The rock video guy decided to use iMovie to capture the footage because he said he likes to see real-time video during capture rather then 15fps on FCPHD on his MAC monitor. I don't know what he's talking about, i'm sure FCP shows a real-time video preview while capturing, but I didn't get into it...I don't know much about MAC's anymore and didn't want to look like an idiot talking about something i didn't know.
But what he did while capturing it with iMovie, he stuck his nose damn-near on the screen trying to look super closely to the footage as it captured. And he said, and I quote, "Damn....I can't see any pixels like I normally do on other cameras I capture with" I asked "What are you talking about man??" He replied "When I capture from DVX or XL or regular DV cams, I can see the blocks when capturing. It's hard to explain shannon, just trust me. However, on your camera, I can't see shit. It's like the pixels are super tight. It's amazing. How much did you pay for this camera again? I may have to get me one of these."

ha!

Anyhow, just thought i'd tell you guys about how a Slave became more powerful then the emperor of Rome (using CF30)! *smile*

P.S.
I have 2 horror films and one drama coming up in the next 3 weeks that will be shot in CF24. I'll be sure to tell you how they go.

gone!

- ShannonRawls.com

I need to pick up 1 or 2 more Z1's but everybody is sold out! It's all good, that gives me a reason to see what's up with JVC and Panasonic. However, I can tell you this ...... if they cost much more then the Z1 does by the time they come out.....I will stick with Sony fa'sho'! Hell, by then, the Z1 will probably be $3900 bucks!

Sounds like you're having a real blast with your cam Shannon.

----------------->
I need to pick up 1 or 2 more Z1's but everybody is sold out! It's all good, that gives me a reason to see what's up with JVC and Panasonic. However, I can tell you this ...... if they cost much more then the Z1 does by the time they come out.....I will stick with Sony fa'sho'! Hell, by then, the Z1 will probably be $3900 bucks!
<------------------------


I doubt a new Panny (with P2 cards etc) will be anywhere near a Z1 in price :)


Aaron

Shannon, is giving great details about his "real world" shoots! Thanks man!

Question: Since you're shooting in CF30..does that mean your going to edit in 29.97? I haven't investigated that feature yet since I've seen so many conflicting reports regarding anything other than 60i.

Thanks for the detailed post!

Christopher, what have you heard about CF 30 being a problem? It works great, and as Shannon mentions, it's a beautiful image. It's by far my favorite mode in the cam.

I have not played with the CF30 settings yet. Before I start, if you guys would be so kind to specifiy what kind of footage benefits most from that setting? Is it better for rapid movement? Or is it just better in general, and for what reason?

It would be helpful to get pointed in the right direction before I start so I know what to look for.

I need to get as experienced as I can before my trip to Greece. No chance to reshoot, ya know?

Thanks,

Douglas,

I read that anything other 60i has motion problems. I've only shot in 60i, so I can't say from experience just yet how the others hold up. I wish I had time to shoot and capture all modes, but not yet.

The 60i mode is borderline for me...on rapid motion I can see drag. But, it's a trade off like anything. Although, for my main purposes (mostly tripod shots) the drap isn't bad. If I were shooting sports again I would probably opt for a different camera. That's just my opinion!

We shot just over 3 hours of very intense motocross action between Sat and Sunday, two Z1's on the shoot, most of it handheld. Everything was shot CF30, and it looks terrific. I'm a little disappointed in the image of the second cam, because the aperture was too wide and shutter speed too high, washing colors out a little, but it was a very weird day for light with clouds coming and going.
Needless to say, the CF30 is the mode I really prefer. Of course, it's still 60i, but it has a look that is sharp, but very smooth and cinematic at the same time.

Hey Douglas, I'm going to try CF30 next...you guys convinced me.

Thanks!

I thought I read that using one of the CF modes gives you decreased resolution.

Of course, I'm also an idiot so who knows if I just made that up.

Is CF30 still the same image quality as plain ol' 60i? Since DSE actually said that it's still 60i, this is what got me to wonder.

Yeah, the CF30 mode has decreased resolution... However, it's still at least 2x the resolution of DV (i.e., it's at least 1440x540), and the workflow is dead easy given that the output is effectively 30p. One may also suspect it's easier on the compression algorithms, but that's too hard to test.

For pretty much any narrative project I'd use CF30 or CF24, while for stills and documentaries I'd use 60i with adaptive deinterlace.

Hi guys

I know that you are talking about the Z1.. and I have a PAL FX1 but .....
all the talk about CF 30 is based around NTSC ..right?

And I see that the NTSC spec FX1 has CF 30 instead of the CF25 on my camera..

Does the result on my camera in CF 25 give the same result as the CF 30 or is this one of the differences between the two models?

cheers
Gareth

>>Does the result on my camera in CF 25 give the same result as the CF 30 or is this one of the differences between the two models?<<

The main difference is the frame-rate... The expected resolution is the same. Most would say CF25 gives a better result (less-compressed and more film-like) than CF30. It's just us NTSC people don't have a choice, or, if you're Shannon, don't like shooting in PAL when most people in the USA only have NTSC equipment.

Shannon - I note the diffference between the response your post has received here and on another HDV forum.

Obviously people here actually USE the cameras instead of just referring to technical details!

I was wondering how these cameras would fair up so I think I may be buying a few for a DVD line I am planning.

Does the result on my camera in CF 25 give the same result as the CF 30 or is this one of the differences between the two models?
CF25 is basically the same thing as CF30, except at 25 frames per second instead of 30. CF25 on a 50i HDTV would actually give a more "filmlike" look than CF30 on a 1080/60i HDTV. Try it, you'll like it.

Murph, didn't you have an HD1 or HD10 before? CF30 gives an identical motion signature to 30P on the HD1/HD10.

Thanks for the information Shannon,

is there any way you can let us take a look at either of these music videos?

My order for the Z1 went through S. CA. Vegas users group. The order was through a Sony dealer with the camera being shipped directly from Sony. The word at Sony is they are expecting a shipment this week and our cameras will be shipped then. The price is $4,820 including delivery in the US.

I been gone all day.

ummmm, how do you answer 16 replies? LOL

easy

just answer Brandon:

NO PROB MR. GREENLEE. I"LL SHOOT YOU A DVD WHEN THEY ARE FINISH CUTTING THE VIDEOS. maybe even a trailer, although I hate how my stuff looks on the internet, and sometimes makes me look bad. *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com

Quick Question for those in the know. I've been messing around with just about eveything inside and outside this camera and I have also grown to love CF30. Here's my question:

Is there a drawback to using the cam without CF30 but with the shutter speed set to 30?

To me it looks even better(motion wise) and it looks the same (image qual wise) but the huge advantage gained is that you get twice as much light. For me this is great because the only thing I don't like about my FX1 is how much light it needs. I know that using CF30 can end up costing you vertical resolution so I assume the same is true with a shuttle speed of 30, can anyone verify this?

Thanks in advance,
Eric James

Is CF30 effectively the same motion signature as the Frame Mode on the XL1 series? i.e. "mock" 30P?

<<<-- Originally posted by Shannon Rawls : I been gone all day.
NO PROB MR. GREENLEE. I"LL SHOOT YOU A DVD WHEN THEY ARE FINISH CUTTING THE VIDEOS. maybe even a trailer, although I hate how my stuff looks on the internet, and sometimes makes me look bad. *smile*

- ShannonRawls.com -->>>


Thanks alot.

What is your final medium for distribution?

Is this headed for TV or maybe promo packs for the artists involved?

<<<-- Originally posted by Charles Papert : Is CF30 effectively the same motion signature as the Frame Mode on the XL1 series? i.e. "mock" 30P? -->>>

Is CF30 effectively the same motion signature as the Frame Mode on the XL1 series? i.e. "mock" 30P?


It's similar, but not the same. I've put frame by frame images up at http://www.sundancemediagroup.com/training/SonyHVR-Z1U_CF-30_cadence.htm if you're interested.

Jerry, what happened to the "killer, awesome, lower than anyone else" deal I kept hearing about? We bought 2 cams for about the same cost from B&H, with no tax, and we got 3 DigitalMaster tapes tossed in to boot. I was gonna wait, but it seemed like it was taking forever to get a price quote. I'm glad we didn't wait.

Douglas:
It wasn't the "killer deal" but they went to the trouble and since I had waited, I went with them. I felt like I should support the group effort. I pay no tax either way.

I saved about $120 but the use of the camera during that time would have been worth more. I am in no rush on my project but I can rent the camera to Guy's client for a 2 day shoot (he wanted to use it with his FX1) and would have come out ahead. I'm not sure if it will get here in time.

Ouch! Sorry to hear that. We don't rent cams often, but hey...if you're not using it and you know the guy....We rented ours for 2 days at 150.00 each, so it was a pretty sweet return of 600.00 for the two days. That's why I didn't want to wait for the price that I was thinking was coming. B&H no longer has the better deal that they had back in Feb, but I think that's because there is a shortage of these cams right now.

Sorry that it wasn't a great price. I kept wanting to tell everyone what we were doing through B&H, but didn't want to rock the boat.

Every once in a while we get an ouch. My first feature is coming together. We'll probably begin it soon after NAB. Right now I just want to get my hands on the camera and learn as much about what it can do as I can. This community seems like one of the best places to do that -(outside of your place, of course). I'm keeping notes on all your suggestions and plan to start trying them out as soon as it gets here. I hope to shoot a couple of short scripts that I can post. I'm looking forward to seeing you at NAB and getting the latest techniques.

I am still hoping for some opinions on the type of footage that would best show the differences between using standard 60i vs CF30.

I assume that fast moving objects would be a good start. Anything else in particular? Any advantages when shooting landscapes, ocean waves, sunsets/sunrises?

Slower moving objects are also good, and try against a static background with some not-quite horizontals of high contrast. I use a movie like this for testing my plugins and find it shows up a lot of faults. The high contrast off horizontals are there to show up aliassing and twitter BTW.

Graeme

Shannon thanks for sharing your findings, it is hard to find plp like you and others in this forum that are willing to share info without asking for nothing in return "knowledge is a universal gift, it should be share, not sell" this is why i say thank you.

i ll be shooting a "reggaeton" music video in Puerto Rico next month im into pre-production desitions, first ill be using a sony fx1 with a mini35 adapter and a set of 35mm high speed primes, my initial workflow was to shoot cf30 for regular shots and 60i for slow motion shots, as ill be editing in premiere and Shannon you are a PC guy like me, should i shot this way or do you think that the soon to be realese ifo about cf24 will look better? also im really intrested on your output methods, i know that you edit on HD 29.97 timeline, leaving the downcovertion til the end, is this true? do you capture progressive?

thanks

<<<-- Originally posted by Rafael Cruz :
my initial workflow was to shoot cf30 for regular shots and 60i for slow motion shots, as ill be editing in premiere and Shannon you are a PC guy like me, should i shot this way or do you think that the soon to be realese ifo about cf24 will look better? also im really intrested on your output methods, i know that you edit on HD 29.97 timeline, leaving the downcovertion til the end, is this true? do you capture progressive? -->>>

That's exactly what I did. On the raggae video we had a plane taxi the runway, and the director wanted a look similar to the movie "FACE OFF" where Nicholas Cage was going out to the airplane in slow motion and his jacket flew up with the wind and revealed those gorgeous pearl handles all chrome smith & wessons in the small of his back. Well yea, he wanted something like that. So for that shot we took the camera out of CF30 and put it on regular 60i. Shot that scene, and put the camera back in cf30 for the rest of the shoot. The editor is going to slow the 60i down in post to replicate that FACE OFF scene but instead, using the artist coming from a taxi'ng airplane.

I personally don't think you should ever really need to shoot ANY fast-paced music video in CF24, or 24P, or 60i deinterlaced to 24fps. That's the big miconception about 24p.

"24P DOES NOT GIVE YOU A FILM LOOK......HOW YOU SHOOT AND HOW YOU LIGHT AND HOW YOU DIRECT GIVES YOU THE FILM LOOK"

24p is just a framerate. nothing more. And as of 2005, humans are acustomed to 24p for great dramatic style movies or action adventures with drama and love and dialog conversations involved. Not Music Videos.

For Music videos, I bet most people didn't know that the directors normally overcrank their cameras for most of the video. They overcrank to 48fps if they can...especially for the fast paced hip-hop, rock, raggae, dancing, metal, bouncing around music videos with lots of T & A shots. Slow motion is almost ALWAYS overcranked and never in 24p mode. This is why I gave up arguing with novices who read too damn much on the internet and follow advertising posters like a religion. You have to get out there and EXPERIENCE what is really going on and see the methods that are used to get a clear understanding. People follow "24p" like its the holy grail and any DP who says the words "24P" is followed like Jesus himself. Yet, after all is said and done, they are upset in the cutting room.

Music videos shot in DV/HD, in my humble opinion, should be shot in Progressive 30 frames progressive to look best on a Cable TV broadcast, especially the current hip-hop, rock, raggae, dancing type. Much better visually then 24p. Save 24p for your movie!

Rafael, no..I do NOT edit on HD timeline in 29.97. I do the downconversion FIRST and edit DV on a 29.97 DV timeline in progressive mode. I just prefer this method for speed and real-time transitions and all that good tuff that dv editting provides us today. if we need to make a HD master, I will then Online the footage and do so. Right now...there's no need, but I hold that option in my hands to do it anytime i damn well please! *smile* ya gotta love HD.

Raggaeton is hott!! by the way!

- ShannonRawls.com

Do you guys leave your shutter at 30 in CF30 or do you set it to 60?

manually locked on 60

what about capturing the CF30 should i set the field order to "progresssive scan" or to lower field first? what about the best output settings?

<<<-- Originally posted by Shannon Rawls :

Raggaeton is hott!! by the way!


yes the buzz this beats are creating is crazy, down here in the island it is really big and its starting to move to the main land, we have a full prodution company , you know musiccal producers, recording studio and all so if you happen to know aa established hiphop artist that have some interest in reggeton, drop me a line, we could send them some beats for him to hear. :) thanks for everything.

progressive scan!