I the price was $5900.00 we would all buy one but if the starting price was $9999.99 would you still buy one or wait a year.

Nope, I might prefer the upcoming shoulder-mount HDV from JVC, which for less than $10k will also have interchangeable lenses. And for $5900 neither if a third-party hard disk can't be used in the P2 slot.

im with ignacio on tis...

also, i wont be shooting in 1080i.. id prefer to shoo tin 720p and teh P2 cam as well as teh JVC will be able to to do this..

there are many resons why 720p is superior to 1080i, and mainly its system and storage resources, as well as progressive scan...

the jvc will be 24p/25p switchable, with upscaling to 1080i (much like HDV now... ie the image is actually upscaled) but th eprogressive nature of the iumage capture and teh removable lenses should make it a far more worthwile investment as opposed to the Z1...

as for teh p2 cam.. my biggest concern is price and media costs.. im happy to buy 2 or 3 128gb cards, but its all about the $$ and how much of a return i will get if i do go this way... at teh moment, i cant make that decision without knowing what impact it will have on my workload and clientelle..

no,,,I'm on a under $5,000 budget. So I'm waiting to see what comes out next month.

A DVCPro25/50/100 camera for under $10K? Duh! Heck yeah I'd get one. P2 card would just be a bonus. The cards, in any useable amount, are more than the camera. I'd still use them I'm sure, but having the option of tape would be nice. If it didn't offer tape-recording... yep, I'd still get one. Make it small, light and fast!
Now having said that I would have to quantify the statement. It would HAVE to have certain features or the deal is OFF. I don't "need" a High-Def camera right now so I'm in no hurry to buy one. It would be absolutely imperative that the new camera exceed my PD-170 in EVERY single way. The reason I am not jazzed about the new Sony cameras (besides the HDV format) is for this very reason. I am NOT going to take a step backwards in hardware to get a bigger image that I won't even use. This means NO built in cheesy microphone (that no pro will ever use and only gets in the way of everything), MUST have decent low light (1Lux), MUST have at least 2 XLR inputs, MUST record uncompressed audio and for a new camera, it MUST have 16:9 native chips. These are not negotiable, if it's not there, they don't get my money.

My next camera will probably be a 1/2 - 2/3 incher anyway but I just love the size of these smaller units. I rent cameras when I need to so I don't mind renting some more until someone makes one I feel like buying.

"A DVCPro25/50/100 camera for under $10K"

i have it on good authority that the prosumer 1/3 CCD P@ DVCProHD cams will NOT record in 100mbps...
25 and 50 switchable, yes.. but not 100.. i dont know where people got this info from..

maybe for the higher end pro cams but not the smaller one.. no way in hell...

Isn't 100mbps one of the requirements of the DVCPRO HD format? If the camera is recording HD at 50 mbps then they would have to introduce a new codec.

It's billed as a DVCPro HD camcorder.

If it's DVCPro HD, then it's 100mbps.

Perhaps if the camcorder recorded only 24 and 30p, which would have a 40 and 50 mpbs data rate respectively, it would fall into Peter's 50 mpbs prediction.

Which would seem to point to 720p, wouldn't it?

That's what I was referring to.

If this is the case, then the maximum recording time for DVCPro HD to a P2 card is much higher than we've been suggesting so far. At 50mbps it would be on the order of 9min. on a 4GB card and 18min. on an 8GB card.

Wouldn't Panasonic need to define a new format? I was under the impression that DVCPRO HD is encoded at 100 mbps by nature, regardless of recorded frame rate as redundant frames were flagged. At least in Avid Xpress HD I know the DVCPRO HD codec is always encoded 100 mbps.

DVCPRO-HD is at all times 100 megabits. The "active frames" may be encoded in less when recording progressive-scan 720p directly to P2 or hard disk (that remains to be verified), but even so, the data rate per frame is identical to what it would be at the full 100 megabit rate that would otherwise be going to tape. When recording 1080i, it is always 100 megabits. When recording 720p, it's capable of up to 60 distinct frames per second in 100 megabits. If it's recording fewer frames, then it's possible (perhaps even likely) that it may record only the "active" frames, which would make for a lower data rate, but that's only possible on hard disk or memory, it couldn't do that on tape, DVCPRO-HD tape is always always always 100 megabits.

Otherwise, I'm with Rhett on this -- I'm expecting it to be AT LEAST as good as the DVX, just with HD recording. If they give with one hand and take away with the other, I (and I'm sure many others) would be quite disappointed.

Peter, what "good authority" said otherwise? Everything Jan has said has been completely consistent: it's full-fledged, full-on, absolute 100% DVCPRO-HD. It's not a new format, it's not a limited version of it, otherwise it wouldn't be DVCPRO-HD.

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson : "A DVCPro25/50/100 camera for under $10K"

i have it on good authority that the prosumer 1/3 CCD P@ DVCProHD cams will NOT record in 100mbps...
25 and 50 switchable, yes.. but not 100.. i dont know where people got this info from..

maybe for the higher end pro cams but not the smaller one.. no way in hell... -->>>

Peter,

Tell your source they are wrong. Plain, simple, wrong. It will record in DVCPROHD 100Mbps.

Best,

Jan

Ha ha Peter, you got pwned! ^_^

At 10k, it's probably a rental.

At 5k, it's a buy.

In between is the magic of marketing pricing....

Don't forget to factor in the value of an included P2 card. That's always a possiblity.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Don't forget to factor in the value of an included P2 card -->>>

Or two... it' would be nice to actually "use" the camera for more than a few minutes. Of course I'm not holding my breath. It's like Sony including a 16MB media card with their cameras. What a joke, my Clie' has more memory!

<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Ha ha Peter, you got pwned! ^_^ -->>>

excuse me?? i dont think i got whatever it is you call it..

the techs at Rexel here in Aus (the distributors of all the Pana Pro Gear over here) were telling me that it woudl be 25/50 switchable here in Pal land. Any higher and it would be too expensive to convert existing users. Already your looking at a $50k plus investment in this format, that includes cameras cards, accessories, editing, delivery.. its not cheap

it may record in 100mbps but as far as Panasonic over here in Aus are concerned, delivery is within 25 and 50mbps, being that it may well be downsampling...

Jesus, theres just so much attitude on this board its not funny...

as for Jan, well i agree, his/her info has been on the money and i dont doubt what he/shes written,

But think about it.. dvcpro100.... well then if a digisuite is crunching out a dvcpro50 codec stream and can barely push 2 streams at once with a scsi array and dual xeons, something will definately need to be done at the post end of thinds, coz at the moment it doesnt even seem that the Axio or Avid would be able to push this kinda data... especially if were talking about actual DVCProHD100...

I'll forward this thread onto the panasonc guys here in Aus, and hopefully they can get some further info, coz theyre working on the Pal spec at the moment

Peter, there are attitudes no matter where you go. This still is one of the friendliest boards you'll find anywhere.

as for Jan, it is HER info and it's what SHE has written, and she should know, she's the product manager. Could be there's a difference between the PAL & NTSC models... but I'm sure everything will be made clear by the third week in April!

;-)

Cheers,

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson : <<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : Ha ha Peter, you got pwned! ^_^ -->>>

excuse me?? i dont think i got whatever it is you call it.. -->>>

Hey, Peter, don't get bent outta shape about it. "pwned" means "owned". It's an online videogame term used in most games, it means whenever someone is fragged/killed/defeated in some way by someone else. Jan, as Chris has already stated, is the product manager for Panasonic. She would know what the camera does in/out and especially what it looks like. So, in effect, her setting you straight on the subject = "pwned". Get it? I meant it as a joke, no attitude meant by it, hence my "^_^" at the end. It makes an anime cartoon smile, see?

...

Then again, I don't want to imply that you don't know what internet smilies are, I was just referring to... mine.... man, the hole just keeps getting deeper and deeper doesn't it? ^_^;;;

";" = "anime embarassment drops"

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson :
But think about it.. dvcpro100.... well then if a digisuite is crunching out a dvcpro50 codec stream and can barely push 2 streams at once with a scsi array and dual xeons, something will definately need to be done at the post end of thinds, coz at the moment it doesnt even seem that the Axio or Avid would be able to push this kinda data... especially if were talking about actual DVCProHD100... -->>>

I've just been editing DVCPRO 100 material in Xpress Pro HD on my comparitively low end single Athlon XP2700 without a RAID, so Matrox is definitely doing something wrong.

Yeah, I know FCP editors who claim two streams of realtime DVCPRO-HD, including color correction.

I think its reasonable with todays hardware. With the new SATA 3 systems out, and affordable 64bit systems out later this year, DV100 won't be too much to handle. The digisuite and other boards was designed back when DV50 was too much for most desktop systems.

Plus Cineform and others have already stated they will have lower bit rate conversion/codecs to handle it.

I am currently editing all my HD stuff on my ipod...






























...that a joke.

"it's possible (perhaps even likely) that it may record only the "active" frames, which would make for a lower data rate"

Not sure how much creedence to give this, but Steve Mullen claims he has confirmed that the camera will only record the 'active' frames.

That would mean about 13.5 minutes of 720p24 footaqe per 4GB P2 card.

Get 2 P2 cards and you're shooting 27 minutes at a time.
If that's actually the case, and if Panasonic bundles cards with the camera, these things will fly off the shelves at $9999.99

Just my 2 cents

Since it doesn't have adhere to some pre-existing standard (DV, HDV) you would have wonder why they wouldn't only record the actual framerate, unless this would create major reconstruction problems when trying to drop into standardized NLE timelines.

"Since it doesn't have adhere to some pre-existing standard (DV, HDV) "

Well, it actually does have to adhere to some pre-existing standard. The footage would have to adhere to the specs of the DVCPro, DVCPro50, and DVCProHD codecs.

What it doesn't have to adhere to is the mechanics and limitations of a tape transport, which is the reason the Varicam runs at 60fps no matter the frame rate chosen.
24P is part of the DVCProHD spec.


My question would be, if only the active frames are written, yet Jan stresses that the P2 cards can handle the 100mbs datarate, and that the camera will shoot DVCProHD at 100mbs... does that mean we will have 720p at 60fps, like the varicam?

Obviously we'll have to wait and see... only a few weeks left.

You can bet Panny will not shoot themselves in the foot with P2 storage. I expect one card to be included in the camera price. 13 minutes would be more than enough for narrative work, especially if you could offload it in 2 -3 mins. Just like changing a film roll.

Although as I think about it, we are looking at more format wars with Panny vs. Sony. Nobody makes money on tape...

Well as long as NLE's support everyone we are okay...

AAAAAAAHHHHHH i "owned' is something i recognise (i run a tech forum similar to this fulll of gamers.. lol

im not bent outta shape about it though.. lol

its all good, and if it is 100mbps even better, lets hope the Pana techs are wrong :)

Good poll question.

NO. I won't buy if it's $6, 000 let alone $9,999. Panasonic is very good, I owned the DVX100 and thought it was a very good camera. So if the price is sweet and it works, I might.

If not, a Z1 or FX1 will do the job just fine. I am very curious to see what the JVC is going to cost. Now if Canon made a XL2 like camera that is HD that would be good as well.

<<<-- Originally posted by Paul Brady : I the price was $5900.00 we would all buy one but if the starting price was $9999.99 would you still buy one or wait a year. -->>>

I'd wait if its 9999.99, ... i could buy a nice honda for that much money ^_^

That's a rental for me, 7k would be my maximum buying price.

IF this cam had interchangeable lens, then YES I would pony $10K for
100mbps HD. HDV is fine for talking heads, but for nature videography
there is no way 25mbps is going to cut it. Heck, DV barely hangs at 1/4
the resolution. A used Arri SRII kit goes for over $20K. Varicam is $60K without
the $30K lens you must have. IMO $10K is affordable.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : IF this cam had interchangeable lens, then YES I would pony $10K for
100mbps HD. HDV is fine for talking heads, but for nature videography
there is no way 25mbps is going to cut it. Heck, DV barely hangs at 1/4
the resolution. A used Arri SRII kit goes for over $20K. Varicam is $60K without
the $30K lens you must have. IMO $10K is affordable. -->>>

Quite.

Even though I haven't seen this camera I am nearly sold. 4:2:2, DVCproHD, 24P, No tape. "Tapeless is a major big one. I am so sick of tape. When I went from a 35mm SLR to Digital SLR years ago I never looked back.

Now if that price is right, then I will buy. My favorite small camera to date was my DVX100, so if they give us that in DVCpro HD- P2 that's going to be the camera to get. From what I read in Jan's post's there going to be raising the bar on this camera as features go besides going HD. For one thing it's great to see a PM from Panasonic on here with tons of enthusiasm for their product. That's show's me Panasonic's commitment to this.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/ARFFILMS



<<<-- Originally posted by Jack Felis : <<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : IF this cam had interchangeable lens, then YES I would pony $10K for
100mbps HD. HDV is fine for talking heads, but for nature videography
there is no way 25mbps is going to cut it. Heck, DV barely hangs at 1/4
the resolution. A used Arri SRII kit goes for over $20K. Varicam is $60K without
the $30K lens you must have. IMO $10K is affordable. -->>>

Quite. -->>>

I not that sick of tape, just the dropouts ;)

The thing is, tape is cheap and reilable storage. I can shoot all day long with
a couple of tapes that are light and inexpensive. Put them in a drawer
and come back months later to digitize.

The worry I have with P2 or other card type media is the cost, the
expense and reliability of hard drives to off load the P2 cards' video.
Yes, hard drives are pretty cheap, but they are SO cheap that the fail
quite often and when a 160g-500g drive goes down, that's A LOT of
loss. SO, I have found that I need to buy two hard drives and mirror them.
Thank goodness cheap RAID 5 firewire drives are coming of age so that if
one drive dies, you are SOL.

"I not that sick of tape, just the dropouts ;)

The thing is, tape is cheap and reilable storage"



Apparently not that reliable...if you're sick of the drop outs.
:)


You are right about the 'all or none' nature of drive failure.
But, I think that if properly backup up and mirrored, we'll have less problems with hard drive archiving that we do now with tape.

I know I've had a lot more drop outs than I've had hard drive failures.

I'll be glad when all the info comes out,,,I'm tired of waiting. I need to see what this whole thing will cost so if it's to high I can make a choice on something else.

<< The thing is, tape is cheap >>

But remember this cam is first and foremost an HD cam... and DVCPro HD tapes are *not* cheap, in fact they're actually fairly pricey. If you're shooting a big project, that cost adds up in a big hurry.

True, DVCPro stock is still priced fairly high, but I would not feel safe
putting any of my precious footage on anything less than a mirrored
RAID or backed up on two hard drives. I have had two LaCie drives go down and
one of my colleagues had one die too. Others have reported drives dying
early in their life expectancy as well. Let's face it, cheap drives are cheaply made.

DVD-ROM has not proven very reliable in my
experience. I, and recently others, have burned DVD backups and had
them "verified okay", yet upon trying to open a folder I got a
"failed: corrupted" error message. The disk was in perfect shape.

Last time I checked, P2 and compact flash were still pretty expensive per gig,
so I don't see that as a long term storage solution . . . yet.

If it's going to be some sort of 50 mb/sec DVCPro HD, then why not go IMX?

My next camera is going to be an XDCAM, which can shoot DVCAM and IMX, which is a high-quality 50 mb/sec format that looks just like DigiBeta.

For me, it's the logical equipment upgrade as it is still downcompatable shooting DVCAM alongside my DSR390, plus I have IMX available, which looks amazing on a 2/3" chip camera. IMHO, any SD 2/3" chip camera will beat any 1/3" chip camera regardless of whether it's HD or not, due to such factors as low-light sensitivity, depth of field sensitivity, etc. All of these are affected by chip side.

Also, Sony already said that the blue-violet laser currently used in XDCAM's is already capable of handling an HD data stream.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Star : If it's going to be some sort of 50 mb/sec DVCPro HD, then why not go IMX? -->>>

It's not 50-Mbps DVCPro HD -- it's 100 Mbps.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Star : IMHO, any SD 2/3" chip camera will beat any 1/3" chip camera regardless of whether it's HD or not, due to such factors as low-light sensitivity, depth of field sensitivity, etc. All of these are affected by chip side.
-->>>

Although the P2 DVCPro HD camera probably will have 1/3" chips, its CCD size hasn't been officially divulged yet.

IMX is a good idea. Being that the FX1 is the consumer version and the Z1 is a "prosumer" product, not a broadcast product, several of us have speculated that Sony's next step will be a low-cost IMX system with HD resolution. There have also been rumors about leaks in that direction. You see, even though the physical form factor is so very different, IMX and HDV are both MPEG2-based and closely related. If Sony wanted to have 1080i HD IMX product on the market today, they could have it on shelves next morning, so to speak. All the R&D is done. But it is very unlikey that such a camera would cost less than US$10k.