Where can I find some info on these tape formats ?

John, click the "p2" link at this Panasonic page:

http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/home.asp#

Why these camera manufacturers have forgotten the need for better color depth?
Digibeta was 10bits, but after that; hdcam-sr only?
Surely you would think that in 100Mbps or 80Mbps one could fit in addition to four channels of audio, at least 10bit picture, but no...
Why?
Sony being afraid that xdcam-hd would be better than hdcam?
Pana needs to use some decade old dsp's that can handle only 8bits?

Who would buy these days a digital still camera with 8bit colors?

<<<-- Originally posted by Brandon Greenlee : The camcorder info article stated that it can record on both MiniDV and P2.

Anyone have a guess to how close to $10k it will be?

-->>>

Hmm...let's see, I predict $9999.99 MSRP. Everyone does that. The XL-2 for under 5k was $4999. And all those tv offers come in at just $19.95 so they can say 'under $20'. Happens in the car business too.

This is a long used psycology in retail. When you place the cost just under a 'magic boundary', it suddenly seems like a better deal to the average consumer.

If this thing produces the beautiful color we've come to expect from Panny, they are going to have a lot of folks lined up for this one. I can envision may DVX users ready to precariously take the next step up without having to break the bank to get into something like the Sony 390 or 570.

Wow, I'm liking 2005 already!

-gb-

Just my 2 cents, but $10,000 for a video camera seems to be a way for us to all go bankrupt. I thought that my $5000 purchase for the Z1 was seriously pushing the boundaries.

I'd really like to know the budgets of everyone here. That seems like a great topic! My budget barely called for the $5000 Z1 - I had to sell some gear to get it. I'm seriously trying to think who can justify a $10,000 video camera....no indie filmmaker can afford that! If you are a *working* videographer...maybe.

I have no doubt the camera will be superb and probably worth the dough, but still...$10,000? It just seems they're taking advantage of the buyers (DVX users and maybe even HDV users looking to make a jump to soon after buying their brand new gear)...most of whom won't recoup that investment unless they're making money and very smart about how that $10,000 will triple itself and be worth it. I admit that I've pushed my limits with the Z1 already!

No one I know personally (in person) can afford the $10,000....just for the camera and with no add-ons or for any "cards". It just seems out of reach for most.

At $10k, it is not a prosumer camera for anyone but the Hummer set. But it looks to be real HD, with real solutions to real problems with the HDV format. I think the price will help crystalize whether we need HD capability or not. If you just want super-quality downconverted SD, maybe the HDV cams is the way to go. If you are shooting for a high-def documentary or sports channel, you need a real HD camera. Time will tell if the rumors are true. Just more babel for the masses as videographers offer HD video in several flavors.

<< Just my 2 cents, but $10,000 for a video camera seems to be a way for us to all go bankrupt. >>

At that price range, it is a business tool. You would expect it to pay for itself within a few months at the most. It is targeted at professional shooters who generate that sort of revenue. To these guys, $10K is a bargain. Remember, everything is relative.

I won't even think about spending $10,000. My budget is under $5,000. I might have to pick up a cheap Sony Z1 on Ebay!

<<< I'm seriously trying to think who can justify a $10,000 video camera....no indie filmmaker can afford that! -->>>

In addition to Chris' points, I would also like to point out that it is only since the advent of DV that indie filmmakers have had access to inexpensive filmmaking tools at all (outside of Super 8). Ten years ago, if you had offered a $10,000 camera to the indie world that could shoot a theatrically presentable feature, they would have been overjoyed (even if the P2 cards are additional, as a line item they can easily be compared to the cost shooting on negative film, except that they are re-usable...). Few indie filmmakers owned their own cameras; they would raise money for each production and rent, borrow, beg etc. what was needed.

Blah blah blah, nobody wants to hear "when I was your age" stories. But this is such a recent development, it's hard not to bring it up. The advantages presented by this new camera are impressive, and to expect them to come at the same highly affordable price as today's technology is wishful thinking.

I agree - If you're a filmmaker , you would be lucky to pay for film costs to shoot one feature on s16 for 10k - and a a-minima cost 15k w/o lens. If this camera does half of what we're hoping , it will be THE camera of the next couple of years for the indie crowd- and we haven't even thought about the doc crowd. The big question is, if this board can wait until nab ! One thing doesn't make sense - why would panasonic shoot themselves in the foot as far as the sdx900 is concerned ?

the sdx900 has 2/3 ccd's and much better lenses, giving you much better resolution and control over depth of field.

this little panny will still have 1/3 ccd's, it ain' a varicam.

Plus, I'll bet this this AJ-HDX100 comes in closer to five thousand than ten.

I'd take that bet, and hope I lose!!
Being the cynic I am, $9k+ is what I expect....

It seems to me that 5k is the magic top of the "ownership" level. Under 5k, I want to own it, over that...maybe I'll rent it.

<-- hoping Jan is taking notes ;-)

<<<-- Originally posted by Kurth Bousman : I agree - If you're a filmmaker , you would be lucky to pay for film costs to shoot one feature on s16 for 10k - and a a-minima cost 15k w/o lens. -->>>

Sure, and let's not forget sound--I'd rather record double system with an outboard recorder, but you can certainly forego that with an HD camera and record onboard, saving the cost of the DAT/MD/whatever recorder plus syncing time.

One thing doesn't make sense - why would panasonic shoot themselves in the foot as far as the sdx900 is concerned ?
Er... for the same reason that Mercedes shoots themselves in the foot by producing the $25,000 supercharged C230 to cannibalize sales of the $180,000 CL265. Same reason Dodge shoots themselves in the foot by producing a $20,000 Neon SRT4 to cannibalize sales of the $85,000 Viper.

In other words, the cameras don't compete with each other at all. They're entirely different worlds. Someone shopping for a Viper isn't going to say "well, hold on a minute, that Neon R/T is $65,000 less and just about as fast..." I mean, there's just no comparison. SDX is a big 2/3 shoulder-mount camera with big tape loads, interchangeable lenses, ability to be controlled by a CCU, all sorts of things that a little handheld camera will not be, and capable of all sorts of things that the handheld camera won't be capable of. Jan's already pointed out that the SDX had no negative impact on VariCam sales, in fact both product lines are selling stronger than expected. And they expect that the new camera will lead to *more* high-end camera sales, not less, as people get integrated into the P2/24p world.

Hi Barry - well , except one thing - the 900 is sd and the new cam is hd- and believe me , people shopping always look for the best deal that gets them the closest to their dream ideal- if you save 25k and only loose alittle (or maybe none) , then producers are always going for the cheaper product. If this weren't the case then the pd150/170 wouldn't have taken over the news market like it did. However the truth might be closer to a new release of a shoulder hd camera based on the 900s' bigger ccd and better lenses. If not , I believe these cams like the fx-1/z1 and the new panasonic will take on a life of their own, much the same as the pd150/170 did. Cameras aren't cars- I don't get the analogy. You can't even make a comparison between the video and the digital still market. I read the reports of the fx-1 being projected on a 60 foot screen- and so did every video/film producer in the world , and I hear them all saying " if we can get by with the z1..... "
Charles - getting off topic , have you seen the new marantz compact flash recorder coming out soon - I believe it's PMD-660 for $500 -it looks like the perfect indie double system recorder- as small as a walkman with xlr input- Kurth

The cameras 'n' cars comparison was only to illustrate that just as car manufacturers have different "tiers" of product that cater to different levels of customers, so do camera manufacturers.

For example, the DVX is a great little camera, but it ain't no SDX900. And there are several shoots where you simply CANNOT do with a DVX what you could with an SDX. I've got a friend here who produces a live multicamera shoot of a major dance studio's recital. He drags out three old BetaSP cameras and a set of CCU's and does a live-switching version of the event. He could not do this on DVX's -- the lens doesn't have anywhere near the reach necessary, and it doesn't have any provision for remote CCU control.

Another thing people ask about all the time is slaving TC... you just can't do that with the mini cameras, they don't have TC IN/TC OUT jacks. Yes you can start them off in free-run, but that's not frame-accurate and doesn't hold frame-accurate sync through the day.

I've got another friend who shoots concerts for one of the hotels here. They position him in the back of the room. He has to use a 1/2" camera with a 33x zoom lens (and an optical doubler) for a total of 66x magnification in order to be able to get a head 'n' shoulders shot of the performers. You simply can't get that kind of reach on one of the little cams.

There are many shooting circumstances where the bigger cams have decided advantages and things that they can do that the little cams cannot.

Obviously if the little camera does everything that a producer needs, they would consider buying it instead of the big camera. But the big cameras do things the little cameras cannot. There are things producers need that small cameras cannot deliver. There will always still be a market for the big cameras. Maybe a smaller market, true... but if the reason the market is shrinking is because they're cannibalizing their own market with a new product introduction, and gaining overall market share from the competition at the same time, I don't think they'd mind it one bit.

This announcement makes me wonder all the more if HDV really is the "Digital8" of HiDef...in other words an interim, short-lived format? Or perhaps within the next couple of years HDV will supplant miniDV as entry level, and anyone "prosumer" or pro will be shooting at what we now think of as true HD?

Yeah, plenty of indies and prosumers will drop near to $10G...even if they despise suburbia-based Hummers! :-) I got impatient waiting for HDV and ended up dropping around $6000 for a STANDARD DEFINITION XL2 plus 3x lens less than 2 years after buying a GL2 with plenty of accessories. If I can sell out and then chip in another $3-4G to step up to full HD this summer, darn straight that I'll do it in a heartbeat. (Although it would be even nicer if Canon had a competing XL-HD body to keep the XL's upgrade path to "prosumer HD" in the same price league as buying the competition).

Of course, my mainstream P4 3GHz system probably will choke to death trying to process a 100mb/sec HD file...

I don't know what the system specs will need to be to edit DVCPRO-HD seamlessly, but there are already editors available now that can do it. Apple's FCP-HD supports DVCPRO-HD, and on the PC, Avid Express Pro HD edits DVCPRO-HD natively. Avid has a minimum system requirement of a 2.4GHz Zeon or a 1.8GHz P4. So your 3GHz system may be plenty capable of handling it!

Just to add to what Barry said about camera features differentiating the big iron from the little iron. During a phone conversation with Chris H. he mentioned that the robust construction and guarantee to work is also a pricing factor. I was very surprised at just how short the warranty is on the XL-2 tape mechanism.

It was once explained to me while shopping for a lawn tractor. The John Deere might have the same hp engine and cutting deck width as the less expensive brands, but it will be cutting grass long after the other one is laying in the scrap heap somewhere.

Murph,

I have to echo what Chris said. At $10k, you'd better be making money with your camera somehow so it will pay for itself. Even a wedding videographer on the lower rungs could pay for the camera after 5 or 6 outings. Maybe less, because they could possibly extract a premium for shooting a higher quality image for the client.


-gb-

That goes for Cub Cadets too, Greg. You get what you pay for!

Yup Chris...there's an old cub cadet at the in-law's lake house. Every spring we...change the oil, charge the battery, put in fresh gasoline, it starts up, and we're mowing in no time. Ya just can't tear one of those up without really trying.;)

-gb-

Get ready to shell out $4k for tape as well since this is P2

For Pete Bauer:

<< makes me wonder if HDV really is the "Digital8" of HiDef...in other words an interim, short-lived format? >>

I don't know, I see it more along the lines of HDV being the DV of High Definition. And the funny thing about Digital 8 is that it still refuses to die. Strictly consumer, sure, but it's been around for how long now?

This probably is not a very accurate comparison, but if you asked me to rank formats with SD compared to HD, it would go something like this:

Standard Definition --- High Definition
-----------------------------------------------
DV .............................. HDV
DVCPro / DVCAM ........ DVCPro HD / HDCAM
DVCPro 50 ................. HDCAM SR


<< Or perhaps within the next couple of years HDV will supplant miniDV as entry level, and anyone "prosumer" or pro will be shooting at what we now think of as true HD? >>

Excellent question!

;-)

I'd really like to know the budgets of everyone here. That seems like a great topic! My budget barely called for the $5000 Z1 - I had to sell some gear to get it. I'm seriously trying to think who can justify a $10,000 video camera....no indie filmmaker can afford that! If you are a *working* videographer...maybe.
I'll buy it even for $10000 if it will not be MPEG2 25 Mbps camcorder like Sony's first camcorder.
Buy the way, what resolution camcorder will have? 720p or 1080p?

And what is P2?

>Buy the way, what resolution camcorder
> will have? 720p or 1080p?

The AJ-HDX100 will do 720p, that should be 1280x720 pixels. The AJ-HDX400 will do 1080i, probably 1280x1080 with 4:2:2 color sampling. It seems at least one of the cams will do 24p@40Mbps and 60p@100 Mbps.

> And what is P2?

P2 is a Panasonic branded PC-card with internal non-volatile soid state memory, much like the SD, Flash, Memory Stick and other such media used with today's digital photo cameras. Because the PC-card form factor and interfaces are used, the card can be mounted on a laptop. Panasonic has also announced a portable 60 GByte hard disk with a card slot that can automatically copy the contents of P2 cards without the need to lug around a laptop. Nice idea.

720p60 is great! Do you know when (approx.) people will be able to buy camcorder?

Nobody does. Well nobody outside Panasonic, that is. But presumably April's NAB would be an interesting time for Panny to unveil the camera.

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Struthers : Well, better audio on the dvx100a AND the soon to be announced cam

Better video on the soon to be announced cam.....


Of course, if you're shooting a flick, super16mm blows them both away... -->>>

good pont Michael.... its amazing how many people on internet forums state "film is dead now since Sony & Panasonic have announced these new HD cameras" but have any of these people actually worked on a feature film set? all of my assisting work over the next 12 months so far is all being shot on Super 16 (Arri SR3's) & 2 of them will be on digibeta. especially with all this confusion over outputs, formats & editing solutions with HD i'm finding here in my part of the world, film is even more desirable.

Dont get me wrong, HD is a good format. i'm even going to buy either a FX1 or Z1 pretty soon I think for my personal work.... but just because a manufacturer releases a new camera with lots of hype it doesnt mean it'll replace film...

plus i love it when i get the job of loading those 400foot mags all day long.....

James,

No film is not dead. It's still the best for a feature. But until you stop assisting and stop loading those mags and start chasing the money.

Then you'll understand better why people are looking for something that'll give us a little bit of both worlds.

My partner has an Arri BL4, actually its a BL1 but he says it has all the internal parts of a BL4.

1000 feet of film = $350.00 (short ends, recans)
1000 feet of lab = $150.00
Transfer (3 to 1) = $300.00 (including 2 Beta tapes)
Total = $800.00 for ten minutes

x 10 to 1 shooting ratio $80,000

New Panny camera and 4 P2 cards lets say $15,000

Now if the P2 cards can hold 4 minutes of HD, that would be the same as shooting short ends.

Oh, and the four features that I've line produced have been shot on 35mm.

Gary, would you not say that 4 minutes shooting time is a big step backwards? We have been used to 60minutes for of shooting time for years, just because film have 10 minutes of shooting time due to the large format does not justify why we should accept a format that gives us 4 minutes just because panasonic want's to be cutting edge and bring pre mature tecnology to the table today. If they could offer us 60gig P2 cards for a reasonable price, lets say $200 I would buy into this trend directly, but clearly we are not there yet.

I agree that is the nice thing about shooting ditigal longer tape time.

At first I was hoping it'd record to tape but the more I read I'm guessing it'll only shoot HD onto the P2 cards.

On Panny's site it look like a 8GB card is coming some time this year.

Yes, I like the idea of longer running times, no rollouts when an actor is hot, sometimes they get it on the next take some time it takes a few more takes to get back up to that level.

That is one thing I've said to people about HD, I think you can get better performances because you can have an actor pick it up while they're still in that moment.

I was kinda of bummed about 4 minutes also, been then I started thinking about shooting film and doing reloads, etc. so in some since it'd be the same. Now that doesn't mean I don't want longer cards.

And yes I'd like cheaper prices on the cards also. What money I can save on the cards I could put into something etc. That's the way I've always done productions.

I budget and then if I save money in one department I'd transfer it somewhere, etc.

Right now its all a guessing game. I think the camera will cost around $5,000 and the extra $5,000 floating around is for 2 p2 cards, and a docking station to download those cards.

But again that's a guess.

My first guess was that it'd still record HD to a tape. I thought it would have to, to complete with the Sony.

Now, like I wrote above reading and guessing what people who do know about the camera I'm not really sure.

Andreas, that's like asking for terabyte hard drives today. It just can't be done yet. Though I do agree with you, Panasonic should be working on getting higher capacity P2 cards out faster than their current roadmap (with 130gb P2 cards coming out in 2008-2009). The 4 minute shooting time isn't what's gonna be the real hctib, it's going to be storing all of that on the go. Laptop's are good but may cause noise and buying another laptop hard drive will require service or technical work if you know what you're doing. Buying two or more of Panasonic's 60gb docking stations may be impractical as the price has yet to be determined. Though, buying more docking stations may be the best route for continuous shooting in my opinion.

Also I didn't write about was extra storage.

Yes, some downside there.

I'm used to having a negative or a tape to go back to. So, I have to figure out how to store the footage on a hard drive so its safe.

You never know. I know someone who threw away all the negative after a film was disturbuted over seas after I told them to keep it and it looked like it was never going to be picked up in the US.

Then finally a US company wanted to release it on film in the US, but recut it. The only thing they had was the digibeta's used during editing.

It wouldn't have been my first choice but they could have gone to film from a new digibeta master.

But in the end it only got a DVD release

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd

-----------------------------------------------
DV .............................. HDV
DVCPro / DVCAM ........ DVCPro HD / HDCAM
DVCPro 50 ................. HDCAM SR
>>>

Actually, in terms of bandwidth and quality it would be more accurate this way:

25mbps = DV/DVCPro/DVCAM/HDV
50mbps = DVCPRO50/Digibeta (digibeta is a bit more)
100mbps = DVCPROHD/HDCAM
440mbps = HDCAM SR


gl

4 minutes sounds like a joke. :(
Why they don't want to use cassettes or 2,5'' HDDs (80 Gb)?

Unless Panasonic has an amazingly competitive pricing strategy for their media, somebody is going to find a way to hook up hard disks to that slot.

Actually. are there not IBM branded drives that even fit in CompactFlash cards? I reckon if P2 is a standard PC card interface there will be hard disks that can work in there and cost less than solid state. Much less.

Yes, but who want's to run around with a laptop and a extra hardrive on their shoots? All of this brings production time down a lot. Not to mention the additional cost to buy hardrives and laptops.


Jack Felis wrote:
Andreas, that's like asking for terabyte hard drives today. It just can't be done yet. ->

Exactly, so why do panasonic choose to do this now? They could have adapted their small DVCPRO-HD tapes really easy to work with the cam.

I hope they have 2 versions, one with tape and one with P2 cards, I know what I would buy hands down. Altough the digital format of P2 cards in theory is good, it's way to early to go there. If they could offer us extended times and cheap prices I would
buy into it. But for me, I could be out shooting run & gun style for weeks and have a huge need to be able to stay mobile without additional equipment. How about wildlife photographers? Stay out in the woods for days, shooting for hours just to get a glimse of what they are out there to shoot. This is a usless solution for all of them. Not to say ultra expensive.

The more I read and think about it, the more I want tape!

Additional steps, additional work and ADDITIONAL COSTS..

Why?.....

I wonder why a storage solution like the JVC GY-DV5000U uses was not considered:
Hot-swappable 2.5" 40GB HDD

Yes, but who want's to run around with a laptop and a extra hardrive on their shoots? All of this brings production time down a lot. Not to mention the additional cost to buy hardrives and laptops.
Laptop, what for?
Just 2,5'' HDDs - you can buy few HDDs (they're cheap today)...

I don't think 4 minutes flash cards is a good idea.

I guess I didn't make my point very clear. I will try again: if the AJ-HDX100 and AJ-HDX400 have P2 slots, and if, as I have been led to believe, a P2 card is basically a PC-Card with four SD cards inside, then it will be perfectly feasible to pop a hard disk into that slot, just as it is possible to pop an IBM microdrive into my Cassiopeia's CompactFlash slot.

Perhaps that IS the Panasonic strategy and we will see P2 cards with IBM microdrives inside instead of the more robust solid state versions of the cards for professionals.

Of course, just like Sony makes you use their batteries with some camcorders, Panasonic could keep us from using anything but a Panasonic-branded mega-$ card. But I hope they don't do that.

Having a PC card interface on a good high resolution camera is the best possible solution. You could add solid state, hard disk or even wireless digital to the camera through a card. It's like applying the PC revolution to camcorders! There is great potetntial here and now is the time to ask Panasonic to let us use that card for more than just their propietary solid state memory.

Well, then again guys, we don't know anything about the tape situation. Who knows? Maybe they do have DVCPROHD tapes but have P2 for convienience purposes when someone wants to shoot P2. Or, there could be NO tape drive at all. Yes, I agree, the whole 2.5" HDDs should have had their day with this camera and Panasonic could have just released an external 2.5" HDD to Firewire or USB 2.0 adapter for them when you need to dump everything. Which is exactly what they're doing with P2.

Also, where is everyone getting their P2 pricing information? I looked on Panasonic's website and couldn't find a single listing for P2 cards. Don't tell me we've been going at this based on the price of what four 1gb SD cards would cost! If that's so, then maybe Panasonic will price P2 cards to a more reasonable level, like $200 for a 4gb card instead of the $2000 mark I've been hearing about. Unless I totally missed the pricing on the website, can someone clear this up for me?

Your right there is no pricing of P2 on the panny site.

Might have to look up and see what the cards costs for their HD P2 camera. Now I reading so much I can't remember if there is such and animal.

Howdy from Texas,

The thread you're reading was split off from Kurth Bousman's original Panasonic AJ-HDX100 topic. Although it tends to wander around a bit, it tends to focus mostly on speculative pricing and a few other related things, and even includes the first signs of F.U.D. pollution. It even survived a hijacking attempt by myself and Greg Boston, where we dabble in the subject of riding mowers like some "King of the Hill" episode, and I'm pleased and grateful that it managed to bounce back from that. Anyhoo, the point is, there just ain't no pricing info to be had until Panasonic chooses to make the whole thing official, which will probably happen around NAB in April.

I don't know where the 4-minute duration figure is coming from. DV, at 25 Mbps, records 60 minutes on 11.25 GB. A little arithmetic yields a duration of 5 minutes and 20 seconds for 100 Mbps and 4 GB. But that's assuming that DVCPRO HD records the full 100 Mbps at all frame rates on P2 cards as it does on tape. However, if it records only 40 Mbps for 24p, then the duration is 2.5 times as great, or 13 minutes and 20 seconds. This is just a roundabout way of saying that we just don't know yet and should wait until we hear the facts.

Good points, Lawrence, and besides, I doubt anyone is going to limit their recording to a single 4GB P2 card anyway. Most likely the P2 arrays most commonly used will be 8GB, 16GB and 32GB. Besides, the camera will have two slots, for two cards, so if you're stuck with just a pair of 4GB P2 cards it's still not all that bad.

c'mon, you guys! how often do you replace your hardware? if the answer is once every 3 years(way past the technical obsolesence limit, which is about 1-2 years) and you drop $3k-$3.5k on an upgrade, you can afford one of these cams every 9 years instead of every 3 years. Simple math.

I'm saying it will be $4,995.00 without cards. They have to match the Sony's price, no question.

"They have to match the Sony's price, no question."

I would say there is definitely a question.
I don't see why they would have to match the price of the Z1 at all.

The Z1 shoots HDV and DV to tape, both to 25mbps (if I'm not mistaken). The Z1 does not have true 24fps progressive shooting.

The new Panasonic camera will shoot various formats of larger bitrates and color sampling levels. It will also include true progressive 24fps shooting.

On top of that, it includes solid state recording which, whether or not everyone agrees, is quite an advancement.

I think all these things point towards a camera that will cost a bit more than a Z1.

Now, if they want to really grab some market share, hopefully they WILL price it at the Z1 level. But I for one won't be suprised to see this cam at the 6 to 7 thousand range, which I think is completely justifiable.

Hopefully I'm wrong. Lord knows it won't be the first time.