It might hinge on whether or not a P2 card is included. Even if it's just a "starter" 4GB card, you know like a digital still camera, you usually get a low-capacity memory card with it so you can start shooting right away.

There might even be some options on top of baseline pricing, such as the camera with no card, or the camera with one 4GB card, or the camera with one 8GB card and so on. With a pair of 8GB P2 cards, you've got 18 minutes of DVCPro HD, about 36 minutes of DVCPro 50, and well over an hour of DVCPro.

I wish one of these OEM's would provide a camera with re-programmable firmware, much like the photo cams. At least, for this kind of purchase price, the camera might not get obsolete as fast. Once the purchase price goes up over $4K, it really does get more difficult for a small business to keep upgrading every time the technology takes a leap.

"I wish one of these OEM's would provide a camera with re-programmable firmware"

It's only a matter of time before we start seeing things moving in that direction, and the move to solid state (or hard drive recording) is the first step. Reprogrammable firmware is virtually impossible to take utilize when a camera is tied to the mechanics of a tape transport.

Once we get rid of tape and moving parts, these cameras will function much more like the photo cams.
That's my view anyhow.

Regardless, the entry price will go up at first for new technology.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : With a pair of 8GB P2 cards, you've got 18 minutes of DVCPro HD, about 36 minutes of DVCPro 50, and well over an hour of DVCPro. -->>>

Actually, it should be over 20 minutes (21 min 20 sec) of DVCPro HD at 60 fps. If the 24p data rate is reduced to 40 Mbps (which is not certain), the duration should be more like 53 minutes. The prices and capacities of P2 cards at release of the HDX100 are unknown, but I am confident that Panasonic knows that to make P2 a viable medium for prosumer products, prices must drop and capacities rise -- but "more for less" is the general trend in electronic commodities anyway.

Has anybody looked at the specs on the Panasonic site to see how the current P2 cameras work?

I took a look the other day and it seems the SDX800 has a USB2 port so you can hook the camera up to a computer and then camera (with the P2 cards inside) will then act exactly like a hard drive for your system. You could even edit your footage right from the camera since the bandwidth is more than fast enough.

I am not sure is the camera will ouput live from USB2 but that may be one solution to not even using P2 cards.

Also to add to the person that talked about having a hard drive with a p2 connector I think as soon as this camera comes out there will be people trying to make such devices. Other devices should work as well.

On the Panasonic site they have a P2 adapter for the SDX800 that gives you a wireless network feed for proxy video from the camera. Clearly a wireless network isn't fast enough for even dv material let alone HD but what about a P2 gigabit network adapter. Such as the ones for laptops.

I guess it all depends on how much Panasonic has limited the P2 slot. If they left it fairly open there should be a way to trick the camera into thinking it is shooting on a much larger P2 card.

The one thing that kind of scares me about P2 cards right now is having backup for shooting. What I am talking about is card failure. If you buy 2 cards and 1 or both of them break or stop working you are kind of screwed. With tapes we could have dozens of them around just in case. This means for serious shooters you will need at least 4 P2 cards to have backup in case of a problem.

As I've said before I love the idea of P2, but it's not ready for the masses yet.

However you can bet your bottom dollar that if Panny release the camera with a low capacity 4gb card included that the 'dream' will take over some people. You can guarantee someone who REALLY wants to make a high def feature will take that 4gb card and a laptop and do whatever they need to do with it to get the footage they need.

I just wish people would let things hapen as they happen. Whatever Panasonic do they will do.

I do wonder what the really high end developments have in store. Consumers are always a step behind, so I don't think it will be long until much higher res high end formats become available as CMOS sensors etc start to replace CCD's.

<<<-- I do wonder what the really high end developments have in store. Consumers are always a step behind, so I don't think it will be long until much higher res high end formats become available as CMOS sensors etc start to replace CCD's. -->>>

Yup, the high-end will probably be seeing more Genesis style cams.

Also, I don't think Panasonic intends the P2 system to be "for the masses" yet anyway.

Exactly. Here's my theory. High def is really in it's infancy. Yes I know it's been around since the 80's, but it was experimental then and it has certainly not been around anywhere near as long as SD. HD is still looked upon with suspicion by some high end guys, with the use of it in programmes like The West Wing comparing it to S16mm rather than 35mm.

My theory is that once HD matures and digital end to end production becomes totally standard in the feature film industry much higher res cameras will be available to that sector. The result being that we will be back to square one LOL! What we have as HD now will be considered SD compared to new cinema picture developments.

LOL, maybe this is what is fuelling people like Sony to make low end HD models. Perhaps they are developing something much better for their higher end market. Who knows.

My hope for a high def future is that 35mm cameras come down in price and 35mm film can be obtained for very low prices. Then I can shoot high def with all the latitude of film ;-)

The new super16mm stocks are, imo, great looking. I'd still take super16mm over HD. HD is putting pricing pressure on film and digital intermediates, which is good too.

HD is good for interior dramas, where it's weaknesses are not so readily apparent. I haven't really seen an HD film that looked as good as a 35mm film.

ARE SOME OF YOU SERIOUS?

gonna pay $9000 plus for a 1/3 3ccd cam?

honest pana is pretty fair about priceing unless some of you shmucks actually convince them they can charge double and still make sales(hey sony does it)

it will be under $4999 street and maybe special package with hard drive/big p2 card for the $6000-$9999 range

I dont work for Panasonic but i should.. L.J.

I'm liking the JVC, Matsushita is really going after all of us (looking foe prosumer gear)

Since P2 uses sd cards from what i gather. A 4gig card to shouldn't sell for to much. Remember what we pay for SD cards is much more then it costs for them to make them. I can get Lexar 1 gigs for about 80 to 90 bucks. The PC card technology is 50 bucks worth of materials. So these P2 cards shouldn't cost all that much, unless there is something I'm missing.

The SD cards form the basis of the P2 card, each P2 card holds 4 SD cards, and then there's some hardware to basically stripe the SD cards into a RAID to get the transfer speed up high enough for them to be usable for HD or DVCPRO-50 data.

As SD cards come down in price, that seems like it should have a corollary relationship with P2 card prices. Let's hope it works that way in reality.

Man, come on guys . . .

People pay 10 k for a car/ a used one that is/ 15 to 20 k for a new one. They probably pick a "comfortable" car as opposed to a economic car, which brings it up even more. They drive the car a few years and it starts having problems and more money goes into it . . . yada, yada.

You're telling me that you guys, being "filmmakers", and that's what you wanted to be all your lives, suddenly have the opportunity to spend roughly 10k on a camera that at the very least lets you truely compete with major motion picture filmmaking. (Like Once Upon A Time in Mexico-resolution) and your going to complain about it. Please. This is a god send. For serious indie filmmakers anyway (not to say you're not serious). But the serious filmmaker, the guy who can't do anything else and be happy, the guy who MUST be a filmmaker to find enjoyment in life, has a real opportunity here to finally start doing what he always wanted; real movies on a budget. Once you have the camera and the editing system (like FCP HD) The rest of the expenses can go straight into sets or actors or having to pay your rent. If 10 k is all you have, then grab that camera, write a great script that all takes place in pretty much one setting (Like Resivoir Dogs/ most of it was in the warehouse with just a few simple scenes elsewhere and one simple bank heist scene that didn't really show anything but a little gunplay with blanks)

With this camera, you can do take after take without incurring extra costs. You can monitor the picture on set to see EXACTLY what you're getting. No hairs will get caught in a gate and screw up shooting days. The equipment is 10 times more portable and there are no fees for film/ processing/ excess lab costs/expensive camera rentals/ the pressure of insurance for renting equipment/whatever.

The point is, this one price of 10 k will give you a freedom like you've never had, with a quality that isn't too much of a compromise. Take your tiime to light it right and use that vectorscope and waveform monitor and pack that DVCProHD codec choc full of the best signal it can get, and believe me, you'll have a movie to be proud of, and one that can be shown in theaters without embarassment. For 10 k and a little hard work, the dreams of your movies have now gone from your head to your hands.

Don't knock it, USE IT. It's not going to get much cheaper than this for at least a few years, and by the time it does, you'll be competing with so many other HD indie films that yours will get lost in the mix. Grab that camera when it comes out and SHOOT THAT MOVIE.

If you need to, get that pizza job for a half year and save every penny you can. The camera will be worth it.

It is a blessing, not a curse.

Well said laurence. This is an incredible opportunity for filmmakers.
And these are liberating times. In only five years I have learned enough about the craft of filmmaking to allow me to Shoot, edit, primary/secondary color correct, do a few modest effects and burn the lot to dvd for... and now in true HD24P for 10K and no deck required. Not much left to cry about.

Hi Barry.. The SD cards have dropped quite a bit over the year. I have been doing this since the earlier eighties from film to HD and this is the first time we are getting really far away from analog/tape technology. I look forward to this. I hope Canon will also offer a memory based recording system too. I do wish Sony had on he FX1/Z1U.

I hate tape, Going back over twenty + years I have everything from umatic, 1"in Type A, 1" Type C you name it I've got it eeehhh! I even have some Recam and Mll Panasonic. So whatever comes out, I won't buy, if it only has tape. No more tape for me. Hard drives or Memory based media on this next camera only.


Michael Pappas
temp home page:
http://www.Pbase.com/arrfilms



<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : The SD cards form the basis of the P2 card, each P2 card holds 4 SD cards, and then there's some hardware to basically stripe the SD cards into a RAID to get the transfer speed up high enough for them to be usable for HD or DVCPRO-50 data.

As SD cards come down in price, that seems like it should have a corollary relationship with P2 card prices. Let's hope it works that way in reality. -->>>

You guys do know what JVC is supposed to be pricing their "pro HDV"
shoulder mount camera out at $20,000.00?

I would love a Canon XL3 that outputs DVCPro100 via firewire and I would gladly
pay $10K for just the body.

I think this new panny is going to have to be seriously limited in features in
order not to rival the varicam.

20K for JVCs 2/3" camera. JVC is coming out with a 1/3" camera with interchangable lenses for under 10K as well.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau :
I think this new panny is going to have to be seriously limited in features in
order not to rival the varicam. -->>>

I have a feeling the main differences between the two are:

Varicam- 2/3" CCDs, interchangeable pro lenses, variable frame rate up to 60p, shoulder mount ENG style body, record to tape.

HDX- 1/3" CCDs, fixed lens, 24p/30p/60i only, palmcorder DVX size body, record to P2 or Firewire stream only.

To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jaime Valles :
To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering. -->>>

Jaime, you are a very bright man. The Varicam will always be the coolest HD camera, on a price performance basis. Are there cameras that do more, yes; do they cost more, yes. Point here is, will the little camera be used on a VariCam shoot, yes. I can see this being the camera in the underwater housing, it costs less to insure. Or the crash cam, or the crane cam.

And then for the indy filmmaker that cannot afford the VariCam, it will be the main camera. We have worked very hard to put in as many features as is possible. I think many will agree. It is absolutely killling me that I can't say more, but soon, very soon.

Best,

Jan

Jan, your wetting my appetite and NAB still feels like a year away though it's next month.

Jan I hope Panasonic is going to make enough of these to serve the demand?

Jan does Panasonic do firmware upgrades on there Varicam system, if so will that be something that might be done on this new HD camcorder?

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms


<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : <<<-- Originally posted by Jaime Valles :
To those that can afford it, the Varicam's features are well worth the price. For the rest of us, the HDX will seem like a miracle of cinematic engineering. -->>>

Jaime, you are a very bright man. The Varicam will always be the coolest HD camera, on a price performance basis. Are there cameras that do more, yes; do they cost more, yes. Point here is, will the little camera be used on a VariCam shoot, yes. I can see this being the camera in the underwater housing, it costs less to insure. Or the crash cam, or the crane cam.

And then for the indy filmmaker that cannot afford the VariCam, it will be the main camera. We have worked very hard to put in as many features as is possible. I think many will agree. It is absolutely killling me that I can't say more, but soon, very soon.

Best,

Jan -->>>

Jan, can you comment on if this will have 24p/30p/60i or 24p/25p/30p/50i/60i framerates, or said in another way, will it be international like Sony's Z1 and the Varicam, or regional like the DVX100a?

sorry I just dont' get it. I can get a 1 GIG SD memory card for $100!!! can someone not take them and build a "raid" for the p2 camera system? or better yet go out to a harddisk for HOURS and HOURS of HD footage? \\


what is it with this P2 stuff?

The P2 system already *is* a RAID of four SD cards working together.

The advantage of P2 flash memory over hard drives is that recording to flash memory requires less power, is more quiet, and much more robust in terms of g-shock than hard drives.

what is the cost of 4 1 gig cards in the p2 system?

100 bucks, hell I can get 1gigs for 75 bucks. I believe Panasonic is going to bring SD base P2 media cards to the level of a logical value.

The reason they have been very high priced is the result that P2 is a very very very niche technology at this current point and not many people own them at all. Actually I don't no anyone who knows anyone who knows so and so that owns or uses a P2 system.

When it goes mainstream soon, Panasonic will adjust the price for volume sales.

Michael Papppas
http://www.pbase.com/arrfilms

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : sorry I just dont' get it. I can get a 1 GIG SD memory card for $100!!! can someone not take them and build a "raid" for the p2 camera system? or better yet go out to a harddisk for HOURS and HOURS of HD footage? \\


what is it with this P2 stuff? -->>>

One arm, either left or right doesn't matter. A knee cap and two toes, your choice on which toes and which knee cap. Not pricey at all.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS


<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : what is the cost of 4 1 gig cards in the p2 system? -->>>

<<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : what is the cost of 4 1 gig cards in the p2 system? -->>>

There is no 1 Gig P2 card.

I think he's asking about the 4 gig P2 card.

Jan, you just got married?

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham : Jan, you just got married? -->>>

Yes I did, but in October 2004, to the man of my dreams. We make a good pair, he is a geeky as I am, so to speak we are two geeks in a pod. ;-)

Jan Crittenden,

What is the cost for the 4 gig P2. MSRP and street or which that you know of. Thanks


<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : <<<-- Originally posted by Obin Olson : what is the cost of 4 1 gig cards in the p2 system? -->>>

There is no 1 Gig P2 card. -->>>

The 2 gig P2 card was about $1700 street, and it's not even made any more. The 4 gig P2 card should now be less than what a 2 gig P2 card was a year ago. So I'm guessing under $2000 for a 4 gig card.

Hi Michael,

It is about $1700 today. It was $2,000 about 3 months ago.

Best,

Jan

So how much video can you get on a 4 gig card?

Depending on what you record. in DVCPRO25 it is roughly 18, in DVCPRO50 it is 9, in HD it is about 4.

Jan Crittenden,

What frame rate are these figures based on. Is this on 60 or 24. If it is on 60 does that mean 24P in HD will be around 8 minutes.

Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/ARRFILMS


<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : Depending on what you record. in DVCPRO25 it is roughly 18, in DVCPRO50 it is 9, in HD it is about 4. -->>>

"If it is on 60 does that mean 24P in HD will be around 8 minutes."


Great question, and one I am dying to hear the answer to.

If that's the case, the amount stored in DVCPro50 at 24P should also increase a little bit (about 10%).

I hope this is the case.
While 1080 24P was a huge surprise, I hope to hear that the assumptions about lowered datarate at lowered framerate was true. If not, this puts a small (very small) damper on what is otherwise great news.

The 60P feature blew me away!

The camera is a Mini Showscan camera. I did research at Showscan corp back in late eighties thru the early 1990's. This camera doing 60P in HD is amazing. Just amazing. Shoot 60p at 1/125th of a second and you have a mini digital Showscan system. WoW!

That aside, this camera has a large format list. We haven't even seen the feature list yet. I'm getting hungry......................

Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/ARRFILMS

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Jan Crittenden,

What frame rate are these figures based on. Is this on 60 or 24. If it is on 60 does that mean 24P in HD will be around 8 minutes.

Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/ARRFILMS
-->>>

It takes 11.25 GB to record an hour of 25-Mbps video. Therefore, 4 GB should hold 21 minutes and 20 seconds. If the arithmetic holds up, DVCPro HD at 720p24 should be 5/8 of that figure, or about 13 minutes. My guess is that the actual running time will be somewhat less, but certainly should be at least 10 to 12 minutes.

In keeping with this whole "time on P2" theme, does anyone know if Firestore's upcoming HD upgrade for the FS-4 will support DVCPROHD?

I'm sure Firestore had to know this was coming, so I guess we can always hope, huh?

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : In keeping with this whole "time on P2" theme, does anyone know if Firestore's upcoming HD upgrade for the FS-4 will support DVCPROHD?

I'm sure Firestore had to know this was coming, so I guess we can always hope, huh? -->>>

Hi Kevin,

I was talking to them about it and they are thinking. Perhaps to help them positively consider They will need encouragement from customers. But they are looking for options on how to make it work. Customers always help me make better decisions. ;-)

Best,

Jan

Well, I'll do my part and send them a little email, because between this cam and a Firestore I'm sold, as that will tide me over until P2 is cheap enough.

I don't want to paint you into a corner Jan, but I assume then that the new cam has a firewire connector (I know someone speculated in another thread that it might not...)

dvuser.co.uk are reporting that the camera will retail for "A little over £3000"GBP in the UK.

Interesting... what's the source? Do you have a direct link?

Is Panasonic trying to put people like me out of business or something?

It's http://www.dvuser.co.uk/Main%20pages/what%27s%20new%20pages/panasonic%20AG-HVX200.html.

The short "article" was posted today, and contains all the info we already know, plus the price...?

I would guess that would come in at $4000-5000 USD.

What do you mean Simon?

Thanks for the link. That ends up being about 5,300 USD or so (rough calculation).

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Shaw : What do you mean Simon?

Thanks for the link. That ends up being about 5,300 USD or so (rough calculation). -->>>


Is this price for real? That's a street price of 4,999. If so , Wow! Can someone verify this!

Thanks for the calculation...

I think the UK price is generally higher than the USD price, so I would guess maybe $4999?

And another $4999 for P2 cards?

Actually at that sort of price, and without the burden of having to buy a VCR it does become quite viable to stock up on P2 cards.

I'm so torn. The JVC GY-HD100 is coming in "under £4200" but won't have the fantastic 100mbit 4:2:2 HD.

On the other hand I don't really want to have to lug a laptop around on small crew docco shoots, just so I can keep offloading P2 cards.