In other words how much shooting time can you get on a p2 card if shot dv or HD.

See https://eww.pavc.panasonic.co.jp/pro-av/sales_o/p2/p2card/index.html, although I think that's an older page as it refers to 2GB and 4GB capacities for P2. An 8GB P2 card (which is an array of four 2GB SD cards) will hold 32 minutes of DVCPro, which is the same data rate as standard DV.

On an 8 Gb card, you should be able to get:

32 minutes of DVCPRO25, which is the same thing as DV.
16 minutes of DVCPRO50.
8 minutes of DVCPROHD at 720p60 or 1080i.

At 720p24, you should get about 20 minutes, assuming the camera doesn't write duplicate frames to the card.

Good heavens - and this is what people are trumpeting as the Sony Z1 "killer". I shoot documentaries, often filming 100 hrs of footage BEFORE entering an edit suite! No way this camera will replace my Z1

There are different uses for each camera. If you need long recording times, like Derek does, perhaps the Z1 would be the more practical camera for those purposes. But if you're used to working in a film workflow, the new P2 camera will be *very* familiar.

100 feet of 16mm film goes by in 2.5 minutes, same as 24P 720p on a 1-gigabyte card. So each gigabyte of storage is equivalent in runtime to a 100-ft roll of 16mm film.

In terms of 35mm film, a 1,000-ft magazine lasts about 10 minutes. So also would 720/24p last about 10 minutes on a 4-gig card. So a 4-gig card is equivalent in storage space to a 1000-ft magazine of 35mm film. (excepting, of course, that you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc., you can edit it immediately, you can delete unusable clips and record over them, and you can record over and over and over, vs. just once for film... and as opposed to tape, there are no dropouts, no flake-outs, no melting, no heat issues, no humidity hassles, no worries about dust, no moving parts, no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing...)

That's just P2 storage. We don't know for sure yet whether the camera will allow other means of recording (on an internal tape perhaps? although that seems unlikely... or on firewire-streaming to hard disk? Built-in hard disk even? We don't know yet).

From what I hear P2 is not cheap. So if the new Panasonic that's coming is meant to compete with the Z1 (i.e low end price point) then I would assume they'd support tape too, just so people can do it on the "cheap".


Aaron

I would be perfectly happy if it didn't have a tape transport, but instead (in addition to P2) it supported direct-to-disk external recording hardware such as the FireStore.

It's still cheaper to do tape than buy a Firestore which aren't cheap and are also another bit of equipment you have hang off your camera. But I still wouldn't complain if it did do direct to disk - although I'd want proper, integrated control.


Aaron

Come'on... I'm sure somebody --perhaps even Panasonic-- will figure a way to run a hard disk in the P2 slot, which is really just a PC-card slot. So no need to lug around another accessory or a laptop or a Panasonic P2 drive. Just pop the disks into the slots as needed.

There is a Toshiba 1.8 inch PC-Card that drive can handle more than 100 Mbps, the initial offering is 5 GB but it seems they can scale that up to 60 GB:
http://sdd.toshiba.com/main.aspx?Path=810000000007000000010000659800000000/81000000010D000000010000659C000003B7

More info:
http://www.synchrotech.com/products/hard-drives_01.html

It's even already available at B&H:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?A=details&Q=&is=REG&O=productlist&sku=321959

"Come'on... I'm sure somebody --perhaps even Panasonic-- will figure a way to run a hard disk in the P2 slot, which is really just a PC-card slot. So no need to lug around another accessory or a laptop or a Panasonic P2 drive. Just pop the disks into the slots as needed."

Ignatio, you seem to be the eternal optimist as far as Panasonic's abilities are concerned. I think you guys are getting very excited over a camera which does not yet exist. Heaven help Panasonic if they can't deliver the wondercam that people are fantasizing about here. It's obvious to me that some people hate Sony so much that they'll rationalise any alternative as being better - even if it means only getting 10 mins of material on a $ 2000 P2 card at a time! Recording to HD would be a great option, but HD's are big and heavy, not just "popped" into a camera. They have to be powered - and when there's dust and heat or cold and vibration present, such as on typical film locations, they might just seize up!
Unless they can come up with a 200GB P2 card that sells for $50, it's gonna be a hard sell.

Derek I have to agree with you here. I do wonder what peoples reaction would be if it was Sony that was peddling $2000 for 10 minutes storage. I have a feeling it would be less than friendly.

I am, to be honest, absolutely astounded at the hostility some of the P2 supporters have against XDCAM. Some have even cited XDCAMs natural progression of the standard editing workflow as a disadvantage saying it is stuck in the past way of doing things. Ridiculous. Absolutely ridiculous.

HD storage, like you say is cumbersome. Personally I don't want to be lugging around a hard drive everywhere, and I am amazed that a lot of people are willing to, or even recommend, doing this. I have enough stuff to be carrying around without something extra just to get reliable storage.

My biggest problem is that many things being suggested are cumbersome workarounds for solutions that should be provided neatly by the manufacturers themselves in an all in one package.

When will people realise that as far as making money is conerned it doesn't matter one iota what P2 will cost in 2 years time, it matters what it costs now. Early supporters will get stung. Technology does become worthless rather quickly, but in P2's case when the price does come down, each of those $2000 cards will have been a seriously negative investment. That price point alone says categorically that P2 is not ready yet. It's a nice idea, but it's just not ready to go. Like Panasonic is rushing it out just to get a piece of the NLE camera pie.

Then there's the issue of possible changes to those types of cards size and format in the near future. What happens then?

I'm done with all of this. I'll use my camera to it's utmost. If people want to throw away money like that just to beg for even the smallest amount of HD footage, they are welcome to it. Personally I would rather spend that storage card money on a better lens, or a higher end camera, or any other number of things I can enhance my equipment with. Or just save the money, put it in a savings account towards my retirement.

god how many times does it have to be screamed... ??

there are LARGER P2 CARDS AVAILABLE

at the moment the largest ive seen is 128gb

by the time the cameras come out, one would expect it to double..

Makes no odds Peter. They are still ridiculously expensive. Like I said, replace Pansonic with Sony and I'm sure there would have been a much different reaction around here to P2. AFAIK the 128gb cards are not available yet. And if they were, given the price for a 4gb card how in the hell is anybody here going to be able afford one without remortgaging the house?!

I'm stunned by the support for this format as it stands.

*sigh* this reminds me of our travails with HDV all over again.

For Derek and Simon, please be advised that we do NOT condone platform wars here at DV Info Net, nor do we allow personal attacks. There has been no hostility expressed here toward XDCAM or any other format that I can see. If you have a specific complaint, please contact me privately by email and we'll get things sorted out. Also, if you have decided that this is not the camera (or camera-to-be in this case) for your purposes, then please move on to our other boards -- we cover a wide variety of formats here. I will not allow a nay-sayer to camp out in a specific area and preach why it is inferior to their own favorite format, nor will I allow platform wars, or personal flames no matter how delicately they are couched. Debate the ideas, please, and if you have no interest in the P2 format, then you are definitely in the wrong forum. Thanks,

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green :

So a 4-gig card is equivalent in storage space to a 1000-ft magazine of 35mm film. (excepting, of course, that you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc., you can edit it immediately, you can delete unusable clips and record over them, and you can record over and over and over, vs. just once for film... and as opposed to tape, there are no dropouts, ......... no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing...)

-->>>


You claim that with P2 you don't have to transfer the footage, you don't have to capture it, and you don't have to digitize it. If the cards are going to be let's say ~2000$ for 20 minutes, 8GB, then an average prosumer can't propably afford more than two cards first. On anything reguiring more material than 40 minutes, I'd say you'd need to transfer your material on to some laptop, or to some harddrive. Otherwise your material costs are going to be huge. Even if those 8GB cards would sell for 100$, that would still cost too much for most people to keep the material on the P2 cards.

In my opinion, P2 and it's initial cost, are going to make the cameraperson transfer the material while shooting. So "you don't have to process it, transfer it, etc." or "no hassles, no capturing, no digitizing..." is not the way it is going to be, unless the cards cost - let's say - under 20$.

I'm very excited about P2 in the future, but I'd like to be reading good info on the media, not exaggeration on how easy it's going to be. (Unless you have some inside info that the cost of one card is really going to be cheap.)

I'm one of those people, who hope that the HDX100 will have tape, and that you could put DVCPROHD on it, and that the P2 would be there for the future. But, we'll see how well Pana has thought out the workflow and cost of media.

by the time prosumer models come out, media prices wont be an issue.. jsut look at how cheap solid state memory ahs become over the last 6 months.. its just gonna get cheaper

That's tautological. I mean, all media is constantly getting less expensive and denser and faster an so on. But I don't think that in the next five years there is any chance of solid state being less expensive than hard disk or even optical. Which is why I advocate that a hard disk should work in the P2 slot. It is also the reason why Sony's choice of optical media for their high-end SD offerings has been quite clever.

I have been hearing about solid state's promising future for about ten years!

In my opinion, price for 8GB P2 will drop to ~800-1000$ very soon. Let's see - now street price for 1GB card is $75 and for 2GB about $210 (here in Moscow, Russia). I don't think that combining four SD's in one array really costs more than $100 - so panny will lower the price, otherwise others memory makers will do - and will take all cream from a pie.

... and hopefully, that's exactly what will happen. Using an open technology like PCMCIA for the card's form factor means that it's likely other manufacturers will be able to offer cards as well (hopefully, at least). Competition leads to innovation and lower prices.

"Competition leads to innovation and lower prices."

Well said, and exactly right.

It's this same competition that led to 24P on the DVX, the true 16:9 on the XL2, the HDV recording of the Z1, and now the solid state recording of the HDX.

This same competition will lead to quantum leaps in solid state memory, and significant price drops.

This is how capitalism works, and how it has always worked.
There is no reason to believe this case will be different.

I for one am looking forward to it!

I look forward to it to. But I look forward to it when it's affordable.

This is the catch 22. On the one hand I am fed up of the yahoo's going over the top in enthusiasm for new technology, but at the same time I realise that new tech needs pioneers to take it on board for it to be successful.

If P2 and an equivilent to the SDX900 comes along (well strictly speaking there already is, but lets just refer to P2 prices here) I'll consider it if the XDCAM isn't making inroads that way. But I need something I can buy more of if neccesary.

Jan says that P2 isn't an archive format, but I still need to have the option of buying more storage easily without having to take out a a 5th mortage! ;-)

So in theory I am all for P2. But I want it to be real, ie affordable, TRULY affordable before I buy into it. Jan, then you will have my custom.

<<<-- Originally posted by Simon Wyndham :
Jan says that P2 isn't an archive format,

It isn't it is memory.

but I still need to have the option of buying more storage easily without having to take out a a 5th mortage! ;-)

Hey for the price of that Blue-ray disk which is the price of the Blue Laser disk that you have for XDCAM, those are not the cost of a next mortgage. But there are other archive solutions that are even cheaper.

>So in theory I am all for P2. But I want it to be real, ie affordable, TRULY affordable before I buy into it. Jan, then you will have my custom.

Then time will tell.

Best regards,

Jan

Now, please correct me if I'm wrong as I know almost nothing about P2, but wouldn't you also save some $$ by going P2 simply because you wouldn't need another deck for capture. I'm talking about people who don't already have a deck (me) of course.

So you'd save yourself what, a few grand? That sounds good to me and I could spend it on P2 cards.

Am I correct in this thinking?

Aaron

Yes, you would be correct in saying that. But then I don't really need a deck with XDCAM either.

See, I love the idea of P2, really I do. It's pretty much instantaneous, and I love the idea of doing that. However for long form projects, things that require a lot of coverage I'm not sure i want to be lugging around more equipment to copy the cards too every so often. I might as well just record to a HD straight.

Part of the advantage of P2 is it's size, but that is negated by having to have something to dump the footage to during a hotswap.

To me P2 is something that shows huge promise for the future when the prices come down, but not at the moment.

Jan, I don't really use XDCAM as archive. But the option is there. The main thng for me is that it's no problem for me to pay for a disc. The client pays for stock, so it's no problem. P2 is another matter. If it's short form, say a day's shoot on something simple P2 would be great, no problem. But for long form where dumping the footage is not practical in some situations it's not. And this is simply a matter of price, not a limitation of the format. If I could afford to buy more cards it wouldn't be a problem. To me if I need a laptop to dump to I might as well record to a HD to begin with.

Now we are talking about prosumer gear. This isn't the broadcast world. So P2 afforability needs to become reality for it to become truly popular. I've no doubt that it will eventually. But not just yet.