I guess you will fall in same troubles as me, if you will be using fresnel lens (Maxxwell). Everything what is not in focus will move around, cause of fresnel lens movement. Anybody correct me, if I am not right, but you CAN NOT make anything moving with fresnel type of GG...

Has anyone besides me and Dan posted a sample video of the orbital type adapter ? ( I posted 720P video a while back )
For me getting rid of the image shake/vibration took 3 attempts at a mechanism.
Now that I solved the stability, I still have to try the Maxwell screen, I just have been too busy with some other film projects to get to it.

For those of you with a device, and a memory of the old Wendy's ad:
"Where's the beef ? "

-Les

From my handheld test with the Maxwell you can move it BUT only in a very tight circle. Every design is different but if you want to reduce vibrations there are some general rules to go by:

1)Make your GG and GG holder as light weight as possible
2)Make the oscillating movement as small as possible
3)Counter weight the movement of the GG and GG holder
4)Make everything working tightly together and evenly weighted

Les-
Which HD camera do you have? The old JVC or one of the new HD cameras? Im looking foward to Panasonic's camera this year. It has 1080p 24 fps and true slow mo in 720p not to mention DVCPRO HD format.

Brett,
I have the old JVC, the HD10. The new one from JVC looks too good to be true!
I expect them to delete certain features on it to 'correctly' place it in the marketplace. ( paraphrasing what internal marketing people would be saying ;) )

-Les

Anybody correct me, if I am not right, but you CAN NOT make anything moving with fresnel type of GG...


Anybody correct me, if I am not right, but {I} CAN NOT make anything moving with fresnel type of GG...

you are denying 9 months of footage Daves..... but it's OK...
... here is last weekend commercial (DVX100A) on top of many other footage samples posted before....
https://webmail.shaw.ca/attach/ALL_SEASONED_BEER_wFinal_Audio.mov?sid=Jc8lIlZIONw&mbox=INBOX&uid=3932&number=3&filename=ALL%20SEASONED%20BEER%20wFinal%20Audio.mov

Anybody correct me, if I am not right, but {I} CAN NOT make anything moving with fresnel type of GG...

you are denying 9 months of footage Daves.....

Happy to see another opinion and hope I will get there :) Probably with very tight movement...

But... think... Fresnel is just a type of lens. In fact its just thin lens. What will happen if you move this lens ? You are changing the projecting paths and not focused image will move...
Maybe Im completly wrong, I have in my mind lots of moving mechanismes starting from eccentric rotating GG in circle by center of GG, through circle moving on pairs of runners made by springs and lobe.

Just voiced my piece of knowledge and glad to hear yours... Im watching this thread, if I reach something, I will let you know :)

Im not saying "it will not work", Im saying "I think it will not work, lets discuss it" :)

Im saying "I think it will not work" let's discuss it
Did you see this? :
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/albums/album06/shock_test.wmv
The first five seconds should be a good clue as to whether I think is working or no. If you want to discuss it, call me: 604-780-1818. The way I am doing it now is patent pending. There are other ways that worked just as well (as I have tried a long no of versions) and lead to the same result (only different approaches)

Did you see this? :
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/albums/album06/shock_test.wmv
The first five seconds should be a good clue as to whether I think is working or no. If you want to discuss it, call me: 604-780-1818. The way I am doing it now is patent pending. There are other ways that worked just as well (as I have tried a long no of versions) and lead to the same result (only different approaches)

I missed this one, but have three another shots from your adapter in action... And I saw its able to work perfectly... I just did not know, you are using beattie.

Do not post me anymore video, otherwise I'll get heart attack ;-)

Nice jobs, we all know you did it :-)

For all who are using beattie and want to try : do not set movement as big as 3mm in diameter. I did and it do not work with beattie. Keep it tight as possible.

I
Do not post me anymore video, otherwise I'll get heart attack ;-)
Do not look at my clips as poison. Take them as vaccines. Whit each one you get stronger, know more, become immune and get motivated ;-)<
Movement is 0.2 to 0.5mm (so 0.1 to 0.25 radius) ......at 3mm, no wonder you saw what you saw (good for a massage though!;-)< )

Gev, where did you put the condenser in the mix of your camera and the GG? I see some people putting it after the GG

ACTION << GG << COND. <<camera

But I would have thought that the light needs to be spread out before it reaches the GG ? how did you do it?

This is how I put the condensor, but im not usuing one anymore.
I have tried both ways but I get better results like this.

SLR Lens < GG < Condensor < Achromat < Camera

From my understanding the light is collected from the ground glass and then focused with the condensor and then the camera sees that.

Hope that helps.......

ok.. finally going to build a similar unit , but i have a question..

what is the Minimun rpm that has worked???

does anyone know???

Wow! What a great thread! I never new this existed until today... and good thing -- I'm about to start constructing my adapter and seeing this I decided to revise my GG support... (I'd planned on using 4 oscillation points, but three seems obviously better).

Although, it seems to me that by using such a small rotation diameter on the oscillator mechanism (<1mm) and by using a belt drive to turn them, the mechanisms in this post are really more vibrating GGs than oscillators. What I mean is, it was said that it's necessary to use as small a rotation diameter as possible, but this shouldn't be necessary if all three rotation points were always synchronized, as a true oscillator would be...

I was going to try using a larger 2-3mm rotation radius with counterweights and a timing belt to keep sync... my thinking being that a smoother, faster and quieter oscillation could be achieved this way, but the key is definately in the synching, and either a chain or a timing belt were the only things I could think of to do it.

Does anyone think that's worth it, or should I just go with the tiny diameter everyone else is using?

just wonderin... why don't you rotate the GG? like the experimant with the ground up CD :) it shouldn't transfer any oscillations to the camera body, neither should it produce any audible noise.
i'm thinking gyroscopic issues, am I right? or is it just because you don't like excess bulk?

BTW, i don't want to start a new topic, so i'll just ask here. does anybody know of a website where the actual working of a 35mm adapter is shown?
i'm kinda thinking of experimenting a bit and building my own - and i don't know what should happen behind the GG. you see, i would mount it to an XL1 and i just don't know how to get the picture to the CCDs. i was thinking of mounting a prime (set to wide open) to the camera so that it gets the picture from the GG to the CCDs (macro), but i don't have a clue what to do to mirror the image back to it's correct state. an elaborate set of mirrors or prisms maybe?

but i don't have a clue what to do to mirror the image back to it's correct state. an elaborate set of mirrors or prisms maybe?

There are a few people around these boards working on a mirror system, however the common method is to rotate the image 180 degrees in post--this allows the maximum image quality to be retained, if adding some hassle to the post production process.

nah, no hassle... it's just not simple to shoot with the image upside down in the viewfinder - if only you could rotate it in the viewfinder somehow.

you could use a field monitor though... and rotate it 180° :)

does anybody know how this is achieved in the actual P+S mini35?

From what I understand the P+S adapters all use a mirror system to flip the image to its correct position--hence why they're so expensive. For adapters without that nifty component, you can use an upside-down LCD screen to view the image, or, use the "magnet trick" to trick the LCD into thinking it's been turned around so it'll flip the image upside-down for you.

I got my LCD monitor finally and I immediately took it apart. I removed the touch-screen glass since it degrades the image and I don't need that feature. I also removed the now-useless USB cable to save clutter and weight. To top it off, I put the LCD panel back in upside-down so now it is perfect for use with a 35mm camera adapter. I think the threads on the bottom are perfect for use with an israeli arm or some other hotshoe adapter. Not bad for under $200 and an hour of labor. The only thing I am missing is s-video, but at least I have true 640x480.

The monitor I got is the VM80 from short-circuit.com. Their customer support was excellent after I informed them that the V7000 they carry does not have s-video and can't display 4:3 properly.

just wonderin... why don't you rotate the GG? like the experimant with the ground up CD :) it shouldn't transfer any oscillations to the camera body, neither should it produce any audible noise.
i'm thinking gyroscopic issues, am I right? or is it just because you don't like excess bulk?

For me it's mainly bulk, but I'd also like to control the amount of grain in the image with a speed control, wich can't be done with a a spinner. A round GG also seems like it would be a much bigger hassle to work with... what If it needs to be changed? The size needs to be right and a hole would need to be drilled in it just to get it prepped... nah, an oscillating mechanism might be more complex, but I think it's definately better.

BTW, i don't want to start a new topic, so i'll just ask here. does anybody know of a website where the actual working of a 35mm adapter is shown?
i'm kinda thinking of experimenting a bit and building my own - and i don't know what should happen behind the GG. you see, i would mount it to an XL1 and i just don't know how to get the picture to the CCDs. i was thinking of mounting a prime (set to wide open) to the camera so that it gets the picture from the GG to the CCDs (macro), but i don't have a clue what to do to mirror the image back to it's correct state. an elaborate set of mirrors or prisms maybe?

I don't know of a website (which is crazy, because everyone who wants to make one of these has to kind of infer the required knowledge from the forum... it's a great forum, but a simple drawing for people just getting into it would be great)... that said, I decided I'm going to put a complete description of 35mm adapters, how they work and why one might want one on my website when I finish (or at least when I'm far enough along) with my adapter... along with, yes, the construction plans! It's been taking along time just to design the thing, which is a large part of the effort of making your own... a month now and I still find myself making a major revisions to the drawings (for example, I was deciding on how to handle an adjustment for the flange focal length and decided to go with an adjustable bellows mounted directly to the GG support plate. I should also say though that I'm keeping aesthetics in mind, so it won't be a cube with a lens sticking out of it. Some people might not care so much about that, but I think that's at least a little important.

As for what happens between the GG and the CCDs on the XL1, there should be a relay lens or two (there's a great lens system design program called Synopsys available here http://www.osdoptics.com/ free for 90 days -- it's a great program and lets you do everything graphically, but the learning curve is a little steep)... but a macro should work, too, I'm just wondering if you'd be able to get the frame big enough in the lens to eliminate the edges.

As for image flipping, I've decided to go with a mirror array to do it. I don't want to have to mess with flipping an LCD or anything like that, and I really don't see what people are afraid of in making mirror flippers... no, that's not true, you have to be careful of light loss, alignment, etc... but it's really not that bad. I have the flipper portion of my project worked out and all the measurements are ready to go (it did take longer than expected to design... but that's why I'm going to publish all this stuff for others to use). You'll get a flip and a 180 degree turn around when two mirrors are angled at 90 degrees (45 + 45), so do that twice and you have a flip on both axes and the light's still going in the right direction. From the lens' point of view, pitcure a mirror that's angled 45 degrees to your left, which creates a 90 degree reflection into another mirror that's to the left of the first mirror and angled up 45 degrees, which in turn reflects up into another mirror that's angled down at 45 degrees, so the the image is reflected back to the right, which reflects into a mirror directly above the first mirror, and that mirror's facing away from you and angled at 45 degrees from the third mirror to reflect a final flipped image in the same direction, and offset upward as far as mirrors #2 and #3 are apart. A porro prism will do the same thing, but I think the light loss is significant. Someone posted a picture of their mirror flipper a few weeks ago, which probably says it alot better than I just did. There's a great book on optics "Optics and Optical Instruments" by BK Johnson from Dover Publishing that has just about anything you need to know.

Ok, just trying to help... please post pics when you have somthing going so we can see!

I'd also like to control the amount of grain in the image with a speed control, wich can't be done with a a spinner.

The SG35 has a speed control, and its a spinner

Oop, I stand corrected. I don't mean to knock spinners in any way, but isn't it that the disk has to always be spinning fast enough to eliminate all the grain? One reason for my preference of oscillators is that the amount of grain could be controlled to the extent that, if say, I want a certain amount of grain across the entire frame, I could slow it down enough to achieve that, whereas it was my understanding that a disk couldn't have grain-amount-control as a function of speed because a spinning circle is not moving at a uniform speed. Of course, I realize many (or most... or almost all) people might not care at all about intentionally letting the grain show, so a spinner is fine, but I really am trying to save every bit of space I can, too. With the mirrors, bellows and relay lens on the adapter, coupled with the Angenieux lens and matte box I eventually want to get on there, my camera stands to be absurdly large... and not in a good way. I want to be able to shoot from a car, at least, so I've been going crazy making this an efficient design.

Finally got back to working on the adapter after 2 years and completed it a few months ago. I shot a couple of projects with the dvx-100a and they came out great, I'm very happy with the results. I have not tried it with HD yet but that is the next step. Here are some pictures of my rig, follow focus, rails, adapter and some footage.

http://www.papalico.com/PB351.jpg
http://www.papalico.com/PB352.jpg

http://www.papalico.com/Chills.mov
http://www.papalico.com/Movie_Royale.mov
http://www.papalico.com/Star_98.7.mov

Nice piece of work! What were the total costs associated with your adapter? The footage looks clea, very nice. Congrats!

Thanks Rene.
The follow focus and rod system cost about $100. The adapter cost about $1000 including all the experiment optical parts, I tried many different ground glass and achromats until I found something I liked. I made a fast shoulder mount for the rig for about $25 in a day which the fight scene was shot with.

http://www.papalico.com/pb35sm.jpg

Where did you buy the rod system?

Everything except for the camera and tripod I built.

Do you have any plans or close-up of the rod and base system? Thanks

Do you mind sharing any plans or componets? I thought your footage was incredibly crisp. What kind of achromat did you use? And why kind of glass did you end up going with for your adapter?

-rh

http://www.papalico.com/Movie_Royale.mov

Movie Royale, t'was cool.

Thanks, sorry for getting back so late, been busy. The basic element for the rail system, I purchased from Home Depot, there was about 16 left from old stocks and couldn't find anymore. I screwed 2 of these together with a piece of aluminum to make the basic element. For the GG I used a focusing screen that I found from the used samys camera store. I bought three of them and messed up 2 of them trying to get it round, there was no info on it so I don't know what brand it was. I liked this GG the best cause the bokeh looked natural and didnt have that super out of focus look. The follow focus was a hell to make, especially the moving arm gear for the lens gear. Here are some pictures so you guys can check out the design.

http://www.papalico.com/R1.JPG
http://www.papalico.com/R2.JPG
http://www.papalico.com/R3.JPG
http://www.papalico.com/R4.JPG
http://www.papalico.com/R5.JPG
http://www.papalico.com/R6.JPG
http://www.papalico.com/R7.JPG
http://www.papalico.com/R8.JPG
http://www.papalico.com/A1.JPG