I was pretty much set on buying a Sennheiser MKH-416 and after doing some listening and some research I decided to go with the Schoeps MK41. Have to give some thanks to Byran Beasleigh, Ty Ford and Matt Gettemeier for sharing their insight.

http://www.dvfreelancer.com/articles/shotgun_shootout.html

http://www.schoeps.de/E-2004/cmc.html

http://www.reddingaudio.com/schoeps/usems.php

Thanks for the nod Ray... I played around with a Schoeps and I own(ed) a 416 until recently and I'd say that you probably made the right choice. I see them as two completely different mics anyway... but it is fun owning a world class mic. (There is some debate on just how good a 416 is, but no debate around the Schoeps.) Congratulations.

Do you guys prefer the Nickle finish or the Matte gray finish?

Yes, excellent mic!

I never liked any type of shiny finish on anything. The nextel grey is a nice finish

<<<-- Originally posted by Matt Gettemeier : Thanks for the nod Ray... I played around with a Schoeps and I own(ed) a 416 until recently and I'd say that you probably made the right choice. I see them as two completely different mics anyway... but it is fun owning a world class mic. (There is some debate on just how good a 416 is, but no debate around the Schoeps.) Congratulations. -->>>

Um, There is no debate here on the 416. It is an industry standard and has been for many years. I have one and it kills. It is, however, a shotgun. Therefore it is not the mic of choice for interiors.

Regards,

Ty Ford

You'd be surprised how many people argued with me on other sites that the 416 WASN'T all that great. I, for one, totally agree with you... I love them.

I actually had a guy from Coffee argue that the 416 isn't a warm mic and that it sounds "brittle". He thought that a CS1 was a much warmer sounding mic...

Obviously I was pulling my hair out.

Then on RAMPS there were just a couple people calling it a "dessert island mic" and then a bunch of guys pushing other choices.

When I said debate... I sure didn't mean from me. I've only argued how great the 416 is. I agree that the 416 isn't the "go to" mic for interiors, but I was surprised how well it does in many interiors... I did an informal test with the 416 and Schoeps... The 416 has VERY little tail and I guess that's why I often found it acceptable indoors (although inferior to the Schoeps indoors).

If it had not been for the info you guys shared, I probally would not of chosen the Schoeps and had gone with the MKH-416. This is what makes DVInfo and DVXUser my favorite video sites!!

Thanks again guys!

Ray

Have any of you guys found it necessary or tested the MK41 with the Cut 1 Filter which is usually bundled in the CMC641-C set? And if so under would conditions did you find that the Cut 1 filter was needed?

http://www.soniccircus.com/store/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Product_Code=332124&Category_Code=CM&Product_Count=24

Regards,

Ray

Some use it. I don't. In my ignorance, I've found the high pass filter on my mixer (Sound Devices 442) is sufficient.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty:

I have heard mixed opinions on using the Schoeps mounted on the camera. Some feel that it picks up too much of the motor and lens noise when mounted on the camera. What are your thoughts on this?

Regards,

Ray

I guess it depends on how loud the camera is. Sony digital betacams, for example, are quite loud. Unless you're outside and/or in a crowd, camera monted mics of any sort will pick up the sound. Some of teh DVcams are a lot quieter than digital betacam cameras.

The Schoeps cmc641 is primarily used as a boom mic. I don't think the application discussed here was for it to be a camera mounted mic.

Once you get far enough away (over 2.5 feet, acoustics depending) you're sort of swimming around in acoustical crap anyway.

The cmc641 is a hypercardioid. As such, it doesn't have the reach of shotgun. But then a shotgun has all sorts of mid and low frequency stuff coming in off axis in a really nasty way.

If you're on a TV set, you can use the shotgun because there are usually no parallel walls and usually not a ceiling. In sitcoms and talk shows (when body mics aren't used.) A shotgun or three work nicely. The person mixing usually does a mix and splits each shotgun to a separate (iso) track, only going to the iso tracks if needed in post production.

For film style on a boom, with normal interiors, the schoeps wins as long as you can get within two feet. In some cases folks also hang sound blankets on reflective surfaces (not seen by the camera) to knock down the bounce.

Finally, in some highly reflective areas, where you can't get a boom close enough with the schoeps, omni body mics split tracked are the best solution.

Ya don't know until you try several approaches sometimes. That's why I like to talk to the producer before the about the location and shot setup. Sometimes I can help him/her from making an audio nightmare.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Ty:

I am going to be shooting a martial arts instructional series. The lavs don't work because of the action. Most of the shooting will be indoors except when we do some weapons outdoors. I could probally get a student to hold a boom if available, but I would expect that they would have no or little experience at it.

Boom op is not an entry level position.

I would try several approaches.....

wireless lav. transmitter taped to an arm or leg or ace bandage with the xmitter wrapped up inside.

PZMs mounted to the ceiling if it's a low ceiling.

I'd have to see the space.

Ty

I helped a local buddy of mine do a martial arts series and we used Lectro wireless and we shot two angles with a ck-69 long and a 416 (both my guns at the time... he liked the 416 so much he bought it a couple months ago)... Anyway we got pretty good sound but I'd have liked to get a hyper up close to the action, but out of sight, and then run some long XLRS back to the cam. If you can stand mount or boom your Schoeps (or something else) then proximity will yield the best results. In every thread like this I feel like talking about audio is like dancing about architecture (somebody else said that first)... once you get your mic going and play around with it for a while you're going to find out what it's best at... then you'll force the situation to work accordingly... either by moving the mountain to mohammed or vice versa.

Seems like I need to get a boom to do it right. One of the drawbacks of using it as a mounted mic is that you have to keep the camera so close to the subject. When trying to get better depth of field with the camera moving back futher from the subject defeats the benefit of the mic when mounted.

Bingo! We Have A WINNER!

:)

Ty Ford

Find a place to hide the mic... overhead or somewhere in the shot where you can get adequate coverage... then get a 50' xlr. You may even want a cardioid to cover a larger area... and finally explain to your "crew" what is going on and put an "x" or some other mark at the dead center of the sweet spot... Find a subtle way to centralize the action around the mic's pick-up. Obviously in a dynamic situation like this people will move in and out of the sweet spot a little... that's why I suggest a larger sweet spot (cardioid or carefully positioned hyper) and people who understand that we're making a video and that you're not just there catching an ordinary day. With a martial arts presentation they should begin sparring from the same general area anyway.

Matt I am going to take your suggestion and get the K-Tek Avalon Aluminum Pole with coiled cable

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=326895&is=REG

and the K-Tek K-SSM Shock Mount

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=details&Q=&sku=323324&is=REG

There's another conversation here that the rest of the readers weren't a part of...

I think (for the money) that you can't beat those two choices in boom pole and shock mount. That K-Tek pole is about 8 or so ounces lighter then the previous value leader, the lightwave gt-10c... and I even like the look of the K-Tek better. As for the shock mount, make sure the guys at B&H know to give you the SOFT bands for it. Trew knows about that and hopefully B&H is up on the "soft instead of hard" option.

So anyway, keep us posted... The reason I made the suggestions that I did is 'cause they are solid "first steps" that you won't outgrow... you'll just add to these items later...

<<<Have any of you guys found it necessary or tested the MK41 with the Cut 1 Filter which is usually bundled in the CMC641-C set? And if so under would conditions did you find that the Cut 1 filter was needed?>>>

As Ty said you can get by without out it as long as you have
other options for rolling off low end, however since you're
spending the big bucks, I would suggest it because it has a variable
roll off and being active the cut 1 provides an additional 3 db of gain.

I have both the 416 and MK41 and am the guy who got Matt and Bryan
turned onto these mics. I LOVE the MK41, but it's draw back is that
it is far more susceptible to humidity than the MKH-416. In high humidity
conditions the MK41 will pop or 'motor boat' every now and then. I have
not had this issue with the 416. I also have a Neumann USM69i stereo mic.
I have found that the MK41 blends very well when setting up a faux 5.1
surround mic'ing as the middle channel, whereas the 416 doesn't.

Keeping the mk41 contacts clean has prevented the noise for me. Sometimes all it takes is partially unscrewing and then tightening the capsule to break through the microspcopic schmutz on the contacts.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Not the case here Ty. Brand new mic. Others with tons of hours on
schoeps have reported the same.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jacques Mersereau : Not the case here Ty. Brand new mic. Others with tons of hours on
schoeps have reported the same. -->>>

Even new mics can escape with schmutz on the contacts, but it's rare.

I would first clean the contacts of both the mic and the capsule with alcohol and a no-lint swab from beneath so the excess alcohol would not drip into the works.

I have 2 cmc641 and have used them out in the (light) rain and high humidity without ever having a problem.

Again, the problem is often bad contact between the body and capsule.

Regards,

Ty Ford

Hey Ty,

My MK41 has performed perfectly in every other condition. The only
time I have gotten pops is when collecting audio on marshes in the summer.
The contacts are all sparkling clean.

As I said, others who have used Schoeps repeatedly report the same thing under
similar high humidity conditions.

"I am going to be shooting a martial arts instructional series."

I think one of the key things is that the instructor or whoever is commisioning this understands that doing an instructional series is much different than just shooting him doing a demonstration. I have run into people who expect that they can shoot some handheld 1 chip video with little or no attention paid to sound or lighting, shoot it during a regular class without disrupting the class, and actually get people to pay money for a video.

Martial arts instruction is all about the little details. This means that each shot will have to be done multiple times (usually both in slow motion as well as real time) in order to adequately demonstrate various techniques. Many martial arts instructors think that you'll just come in and shoot during a regular class, or come in some off time and shoot two hours to get a one hour video. They need to understand that at least a 10:1 shooting ratio will be needed, in order to capture different angles, close ups of hand and foot postions, need for re-takes, etc.

You can lav the instructor doing the instruction while he demonstrates a technique 1/4 or 1/2 speed without fear of him destroying your mic. Then take the lav off and have him repeat it full speed. If the space is reasonably well treated (moving blankets on the walls) then shooting the full speed demo with a shotgun should be OK.

I personally would boom the instructor up close while he was giving the instruction in slow speed, then back up for the full speed part. I would shoot multiple angles/close ups both slow speed and full speed. Add some stand up or office interview stuff in the beginning going over concepts and at the end reinforcing points covered in the video, add some music and a flashy demo shot outside for the opening, and you're done!

Regards,

Joe Kras
St. Louis, MO

p.s. If you can't get them to wear blue uniforms, at least get them to dye their white ones light grey.

<<<-- Even new mics can escape with schmutz on the contacts, but it's rare.

I would first clean the contacts of both the mic and the capsule with alcohol and a no-lint swab from beneath so the excess alcohol would not drip into the works. -->>>

My best friend, who is an audiophile turned me on to DeoxIT Power Booster Pen (D100P), made by Caig Laboratories. Formerly known as Cramolin, DeoxIT has the consistency of oil.

DeoxIT Power Booster Pen also improves conductivity. It's really great. It's a pen form factor, so you "write" on the contacts first, the fiber tip is good for scrubbing the contacts. Use it sparingly. It does have a tendency to flow, so be careful. Let it sit for a few moments and then rub it off with a lintless cloth, or wipe. You may see some depostis on the wipe when you rub off the DeoxIT. That's the grime and oxidation.

DeoxIT page
http://shopping.netledger.com/s.nl/c.ACCT113328/sc.2/category.188/.f;jsessionid=ac112b801f43c10840dbde1c47f4aa0bf8701e6fd074.qQvJq2PEmlnva30N-BbQmkLz-ATzr6Lzn6rzqwTxpQOUc30KaNDNo6XKq6zInRmLa30Q8RbCpR0HoA5Qmh0KaMTNo6XK-kDvrA4Ka3aIqRnvp6iIpAjOp6jynQjM-AbJpgaLchqRbxuKahmT8Oexo6XHngbynknvrkLOlQzNp65In0__

Caig makes a whole bunch of cleaners and lubricants.
http://www.caig.com/

I used this on my cameras and found a significant improvement in the NiCad's performance in cold weather, just by cleaning both sets of contacts, battery and camera.

I have used this on corroded contacts and found that it cleaned them quite well. Heavily pitted contacts were more problematic, but it cleans the crap off nicely.

There have been some negative comments made about the use of cranolin or similar products. Several threads on RAMPS and RAP have concluded that cleaning with denatured alcohol is the way to go.

Oh, okay, it may be different for audio, but for straight up electrical contacts I have never had a problem with Cramolin. Perhaps the replacement, DeoxIT, has fixed the problems associated with Cramolin?

I'm a film, video and lighting guy, so I defer to your expertise. I was just going by my own personal experience with battery and electrical contacts.

Bryan, thanks for the info on the mikes, your voice sounds a lot like a friend of mine's, it freaked me out for a moment because he's an audio guy too.