During the second weekend of January we participated in a bridal show. Many brides stopped at our booth to chat about video. We handed out around 35 demos. We haven't had one call requesting further information.

In December of last year we made the decision to increase our pricing. Am wondering if this why we haven't received any calls? Our prices increased about 25%. We feel that our videos are worth the prices that we are asking.

Any ideas as to why we haven't received any inquiries?

Internet, and bridal show clients are "shopping around". Most high end clients come from other high end clients(referrals). It takes time.


John

I'm in the exact same situation. Same time frame. Everything. Don't you work for me? :)

I gave out about 70 CD-ROM demos and 100 brochures. I received many compliments from show patrons, photographers, and other videographers. I have to learn not to take people's comments to heart. Most small talk is just that. It annoys me, kind of like when you bump into an acquaintence and he or she says, "Let's get together sometime," but they never call; if you call, they don't respond. That sort of thing.

Many brides I spoke to have dates September and later, so I image I'll hear from them over the summer. I'll probably follow up with them again in May. It's not like I'm busy with weddings or anything...

Check out what your competition is doing. What can you do BETTER than them and still stay competitively priced? For example, I think I'm going to start including more DVD copies in my packages. People know they can copy your DVDs with free software anyway, so why not throw in three or five copies with your official packaging and charge another $50 or $100?

Look on the bright side: Soon all the in-demand videographers will be booked up. Hopefully you'll enjoy some of the spillover clients.

If you're producing wedding videos part time, don't worry too much about this lull. Half the battle -- in my opinion -- is staying power, networking, and keeping your name out there. Businesses come and go. I've known people to buy a GL2 and cheap wireless mic and think they're good to go. They charge $300-500 per wedding and when the pool of budget brides dries up for a while, they get discouraged and fade into obscurity. You can do better than that.

I hope your business improves!

T.J.

Thanks for your input!

I'm a full time wedding videographer and my living depends on this business. Guess it is always risky to increase pricing, but on the other hand, if there are no increases, I just end up working for peanuts. I put my heart and soul into every video and feel that my time and talent is worth the price.

Last year our pricing was lower but we had many bookings. I knew there would be a risk of lowering the number of bookings if we increased the prices. But I feel that we needed to take the risk. Over the past year we have updated our equipment and the quality of our videos has increased significantly. We hoped that bridal couples would see this.

We believe that the higher end bookings do come from higher end referrals. But gosh....it's so hard sitting around waiting for those phone calls!!

And to echo the comments about technology, we sometimes have to take a step back and forget about how much your first dvd burner cost you. Since the gear depreciates so quickly and computer savvy clients are doing the looking and booking, your tiniest oversight might stop them from calling in the first place. Here is one example. If your wedding web site is more than 1 year old, you need to re-tool it. This includes menu items like dvd extra copies. I actually stumbled upon one the other day that indicated that additional dvd copies were charged out at 50 bucks per!!! Those who understand the tech will not call!!!

Just before I ask for the order I love their last pre-qualifying question : "How many dvd copies will we receive?" My reply: How many do you want?
Then I follow up with the close: "Shall I book the day in my day-timer?"

The most I have ever had to burn was 7. NO CHARGE.

Keep your prices the same and maybe look into other types of videography to make up for the loss in brides. Industrial, commercial, sports, ect.



John

<<<-- Originally posted by John DeLuca : Keep your prices the same and maybe look into other types of videography to make up for the loss in brides. Industrial, commercial, sports, ect.


Thanks for your suggestion John. I've been thinking along these same lines.

As John pointed out, trade shows and yellow pages ads are for "lookie-loos".
The return on this type of marketing is very small. Word of mouth is your best advertising. Make your clients happy and don't be afraid to keep in touch every now and then. Send a little thank you card, send anniversary cards, be creative. There are tons of methods to retain new and repeat business. This is where you're going to make a difference because everybody knows, couples hang out with other couples and eventually, someone you shot will tell a friend about you, IF you made certain that 1. they are happy with your services and 2. they remember who you are and how to contact you!
--(assuming your product quality is up to standards)--
Don't worry about raising your prices, the business you want isn't price shopping "that" closely. People would gladly pay a little more for a recommended and quality product. If they ARE price shopping, you don't want that kind of business anyway. It never works out to anyone's benefit because they always want more, and you will have to do it for less.
Take your time, build your clients, ask for referrals, keep in touch with them, provide excellent customer service no matter the price (you set it after all) and last but not least, network with bridal shops and wedding planners. This is the winter and not many people are getting married right now so don't sweat the lack of attention.
-oh, and never give out a demo without asking for some contact information. How many demo's do you think they already have? You need to contact them and initiate the contract to stay competitive.

<<<-- Originally posted by Linda Walker : Thanks for your input!

Over the past year we have updated our equipment and the quality of our videos has increased significantly. We hoped that bridal couples would see this.

-->>>

I'm not sure they would see that, Linda. After all, I hope your last year's wedding video clients aren't needing another video this year! So, those that are shopping now won't really know what your stuff looked like before unless you prepare a specific before and after upgrade demo to hand out.

Good luck and hang in there...

-gb-

those that are shopping now won't really know what your stuff looked like before unless you prepare a specific before and after upgrade demo to hand out.

Good luck and hang in there...

-gb- -->>>


Good point. New bridal couples, hopefully, will see the quality in our videos. After all...."they get what they pay for"....right?

Linda,

Yes i feel for you,

Just did a wedding fair 2 weeks ago, i was the only video man there, people showed alot of interest and had about 5 dates to pencil in and they said they would let me know as soon as possible (NOTHING) yes i know its not long since but just one would have been a step in the right direction.

Doing one this sunday hope to get something from it, its cost me £320 to do them both so some progress would be nice.

As a counter to the bad luck expressed here, I did two bridal shows the last two weekends, (my first two shows ever) and both have already paid for themselves many times over within days, and I still have a lot of people looking and checking out my website.

Though my recent success might have something to do with my lower prices, but I think it’s a decent price point for my area; the single camera packages I offer, and for my limited experience. (Can’t get word of mouth referrals if you don’t have anyone to refer you)

Anyone looking for a good source of business, wedding shows are great for the price (300 dollar range) I went from little business to having months booked solid and bookings into late 2006; (I’m still rather new at this, but my experience with bridal shows have been great, even with some hiccups (pretty bad snowstorm on the second date really hurt attendance)

Two things I used to “pressure” brides into booking quick, ones is having an “early booking bonus” of 50 dollars off if you book before April 1st, if they book when I’m fresh in their memory I don’t risk not booking them at all, and I will sacrifice 50 dollars for the added security of an early deposit.

The other thing I did was that everyone I talked to at the wedding I asked about their date and “checked the availability” and regardless of how empty I knew their month might have been, it’s close to filling up ;) A little dishonest, but if people think you are in high demand, you will be.

Nice web site Josh. I think there is a break point for both videographers and brides. That is the premium to be had for 2 camera work. I didn't see the option on your site and you might be leaving a little on the table. My basic single man (2 camera xl1's) packages begin at 950.00 for Saturday work only. Add the second camera man and that is my median or most chosen option at about 1500. Add Friday and ... you get the point.
Perhaps you can explore the idea of using a second set of hands to maximize your r.o.i. and grow your stable of gear quicker.

Thanks Jimmy, A second camera and high end packages to match are definitely in the future for me, and I will be saving money up for it, hopefully in a year or two it will be a reality (and with the dropping price of the xl1s perhaps sooner than later)

Right now I’m still trying to break in to the business and keep my head afloat (Audio/Visual catalogues will be the death of me) and I’m trying to do that by hitting the lower budget people who might not want or be able to pay a few grand for a no stops wedding video (and I currently don’t have the equipment to offer it) But eventually with experience and reputation I will be able to offer more for that demographic; at present if someone starts asking for multi-cameras and stuff that I don’t offer, I refer them to the competition I know to be competent; Instead of having an unhappy and disappointed bride on my hands.

Different solutions for different people, Hopefully I can fit in somewhere. :)

Linda: I noticed your from Green bay, What bridal shows did you attend?

I went to the show at the Radisson in Green Bay; put on by this group; Visuelle' Productions' http://wisconsinbridalshows.com/

And they seemed very professional, Had a lot of face time with potential clients and quite a few leads; Despite lacking attendance due to the snow storm.

I also went to a local show in Manitowoc put on by a radio station, same price but terribly unprofessional, we were in a hallway and missed quite a few people due to poor location, but everyone who walked by we stopped, We didn’t hit the demographic we needed (one that can afford or puts a premium on videos) but some serious leads and bookings nonetheless, I would go to the visuelle productions over that any day though.

Also what business do you represent (I'm curious) :)

Sounds like things are going well Josh. I was recently in your position and I think that it is always best to be sure that your still going to be happy doing a full package at the prices your offering in 2006 after you have more experience and more demand. It is great to get booked well in advance, the down side of that is that you can be stuck working for rates that may be less than what you would like to ideally make considering the amount of time that can go into one production. If it works for you then great.

Just one other small thing. I noticed a couple spelling mistakes on your website. Nothing too huge, but it is probably worth going over. I am always paranoid when we do a revision of our site that something will get overlooked.

Also what business do you represent (I'm curious) :) -->>>

Hi Josh,

First of all I have to agree with Patrick. It's nice to have a lot of bookings, but the down side is that if you book to far in advance, you may find that your skill level has gone up, but you'll still working at a "beginners" rate. May I ask...are you doing weddings full time?

When LWProductions became a business, we kept the pricing on the lower side, then gradually increased the prices. We made the decision not to book to far out either. We do have a couple of weddings this year at the lower pricing, and we don't mind, since it's only two weddings and we really like the bridal couples.

We wish you the best of luck with your business!

Josh,
Nice site, I'd be homeless LITERALLY at your prices. Of course I'm in NYC and rent on a two Bedroom Apt. (one is used as an office) is between $2200-$3000 a month, near but outside of Manhattan.

Linda,
Last year my rates were lower and I was heavily booked. We were working ourselves to death and just barely made ends meet. I do other video work though. I'm getting many more inqueries this year and hardly any bookings. I still think my rates are low for my market ($900 for 6 hours, 1 camera, raw video but fully authored DVD / $1400 for fully edited editing takes about 40 hours). I think way too many brides in my market are looking for fully edited weddings at $1000 or less. I wouldn't have believed it but I jointed WedPlan.net and 90% of the requests in 100 mile radius are for $1000 or less!

Unless I were a kid living with mom or a college kid living in a 4 person share, there's no way anyone can afford the costs of running a wedding business at 4 weddings a month at $1000 a wedding.

My experience is that bargain hunting dominates more so than every before and, unfortunately, there are lots of kids willing to do fully edited weddings at $500.

The way I see it is if I book into 2006; I get half the money as a deposit now, That money can be used, invested into my business, saved, or put into equipment, and the more my equipment grows, the better my videos look, the better my demos look, the more people I book for higher prices.

Sure when I raise my prices it will seem like the wedding is a cheap one, but it was also part of what will allow me to afford an additional camera or other equipment, which will allow me to have greater returns on other luxury packages.

My prices are sure to go up at 2006, and should continue to yearly until I hit “the sweet spot” wherever that might be.

I am trying to turn this into a lucrative fulltime venture; any way I can,



Craig: Yes I would say prices are a bit different between Wisconsin and New York, My apartment is 500 a month for a 2 bedroom two good sized living rooms, and enclosed patio etc. So one wedding and I already put a roof over my head; Of course you probably hit a higher end clientele where you are. Here I have found a lot of people who just wont spend that much on their wedding; those are who I’m aiming for right now, so I don’t think I’m undercutting my competition, as much as taking uncle bob out of the picture.

And those that book with me, see my demo, and see that they are not getting the same finished edited product as a 2000 dollar video, but are getting to see their wedding day as it happened and apparently that’s what they wanted.

I guess I just sort of see myself as a Cavalier in a sea of Ferraris right now.

But its still my first year, I really want to move up the ladder eventualy.

Wow, $500 a month for not one but "two" bedrooms? I think your "everyday low price" strategy is working because of that.

I'm thinking of starting my own production company, Wal-Mart Wedding Productions. (Or Young's Club Productions) ;) I'll drive out all the mom-and-pop wedding business and become #1 in the world. Just kidding. ;)

I’m not trying to run mom and pops out of business; I’m simply trying to break in to the business by hitting a lower end market that typically wouldn’t get a video anyways; and hopefully make up for it in volume. (heh; maybe more like Sam’s club.)

If someone wants two or more cameras, a highly and beautifully edited video and all the frills, I give them the phone numbers and price sheets of my competition. I’m honest with what I offer, and what I offer currently is substantially less than the competition I admire and hope to one day become.

<<<-- Originally posted by Josh Hibbard : I’m not trying to run mom and pops out of business; I’m simply trying to break in to the business by hitting a lower end market that typically wouldn’t get a video anyways; and hopefully make up for it in volume. (heh; maybe more like Sam’s club.)

If someone wants two or more cameras, a highly and beautifully edited video and all the frills, I give them the phone numbers and price sheets of my competition. I’m honest with what I offer, and what I offer currently is substantially less than the competition I admire and hope to one day become. -->>>

Josh,

You're doing the right thing by hitting the lower end of the market to begin with, that's what I did too. But now, my skill level has increased a great deal and I'm able to provide a much higher quality video....will all the frills. But when I raised my prices...and got out of the lower end bracket, I knew that it would be more difficult to book weddings at the higher prices. I have talked with other wedding videographers and they have said not to worry to much. Be patient and eventually my reputation will get around and the bookings will be there. I sure hope they are right!!

In the mean time, I'm searching for other events to video until the weddings start coming in.

Linda-

Wait a second... did you say that others in the business told you to basically sit back and wait for referal to roll in? That's exactly what I tell my competition as well... and they do that, while I'm out hustling business.

Seriously though, I do understand what you mean by "growing your rates". The funny part for me was when I started to get referals who would look at my new rates and say "why has the price doubled since my friend used you 6 months ago?". Normally, this would just become an opportunity to explain the higher quality of service at which point they would normally agree with me that me services were worth the higher fees, and that I could still probably charge more.

Go figure
Patrick

There are approximately 200+ weddings in my area, every weekend. I am sure it's that way in most major cities. Most people don't even think about hiring a videographer. Which is crazy in my opinion. Although, you can't hang your DVD on the wall to show friends but photography shows hardly any emotion.

I have only done two trade shows to date. The first trade show was $600 for one day. The second was $900 for two days. I think that it was money well spent.

1st trade show - 25 phone calls, we booked 7 from that show during the next 8 months. I think we would have booked more that year but when we told people this was our first year on our own, they got nervous, I guess.

2nd trade show, in Feb 2005 - We have booked 4 so far and I have 3 appointments to potentially book clients this coming week.
If I am not mistaken, our current bookings for this year are about 36. We would like to make it to 50. That is enough work for us.
No more clients, I promise.. Well maybe one more LOL Hard to turn one down.

We also advertise in wedding publications, which is great for business. As well as advertising on the web with both Google and Overture. I booked over 20 weddings last year from my website, great tool if you set it up right. I can't tell you how many videography business have a poor website, not that mine is the best but it doesn't look like I had a elementry school kid set it up.

I use to shoot for someone else for years and years but now a few of us ventured out on our own. We had 54 weddings our first year, of those 54 we did the first 5 for free, for friends and family members. Of those 5 we did for free, we had 15 referrals for bookings in the same year. Most of the 15 had not even thought about a videographer until they watched their friends and said "I have to have that!" I love referrals, easy sell and they have usually already watched your demo(their friends actual wedding) and are ready to sign up. :)

I agree that word of mouth is the best, since it's free and it works the best out of any type of advertising you can do. Although, unless you are a very established name and have 1,000's of clients you still need to advertise. The largest videography company in our area has done over 1200 weddings in, I think, 14 years.. don't qoute me on that one. That's 1200 people referring him to everyone they know. Not to mention all the vendors he has met along the way that are also referring him. Even with that referral base, he advertises all over!!! An example, McDonalds, everyone knows MC'D's but they still advertise like crazy.. it just the nature of the beast. Choose what advertising works best for you.

I have to hand it to the guy, he started all by himself and now has about 20 employees. He is also respected by all the other local videography companies. That's great!

It sure is different having to do all of the business versus just going and shooting a wedding and handing over the tapes. From meeting with each bride, selling your services, the competition(From those who are better than you to those who undercut anyone to get a job), many many hours of editing and finally saving all those receipts and doing your taxes(happy happy joy joy, it's tax time).


Now, to your raising the prices... Thats a tough one. Their is a whole overall quality to price thing. I just charge what I think that I am worth and will not do it for less. Time is money and time isn't free.

Thats enough rambling for me.. Good luck.

PS.

Mark Von Lanken's and Glen Elliott's stuff is my favorite by far. I can only hope to catch up. Great job guys.

Jon

I forgot this one. We also do recitals, peewee football, plays and corp training videos. Another great way to pay the bills, weddings are just one of the things you can offer.

Let's say you do a dance recital, there are 100 sets parents who are not allowed to bring their personal video cameras, do to a deal you have with the dance company. Which is do to parents standing in front of other parents and disrupting the performance to get suzie's footage. We capture it, edit it and put it on DVD. We then, lets say charge $20 each. The dance company adds $5 and the parents have a professional version with great audio versus a shakey with hardly any poor audio. Not only that but they were able to watch the live performance without having to worry about, did I get it all on tape and what did I miss?


I think its really cool when the peewee league dvd looks like a pro
football game show. We take all the little guys and green screen them and make it look really cool.

Jon

Linda,
Last year at our local major bridal show, I was the lowest priced videographer (my demo for the show was just "ok") and I got allot of bookings from that event. However, after doing some serious number crunching, I realized that I was "giving" away my work. For this year, I was the highest priced videographer (had a dynamite demo rolling) and so far 0 bookings from two shows...which confirms my suspicision that many bridal show participants are price shopping. Time will tell....good luck Linda
Mark

<<<-- Originally posted by Mark A. Foley : Linda,
Last year at our local major bridal show, I was the lowest priced videographer (my demo for the show was just "ok") and I got allot of bookings from that event. However, after doing some serious number crunching, I realized that I was "giving" away my work. For this year, I was the highest priced videographer (had a dynamite demo rolling) and so far 0 bookings from two shows...which confirms my suspicision that many bridal show participants are price shopping. Time will tell....good luck Linda
Mark -->>>

Hi Mark,

Looks like we're in the same boat. We were able to obtain a list of brides that attended the show, and to date, I've sent out 80 emails. That was a couple of days ago, and have not received any feedback. I do have many more emails to send out, so will do that.

I'm seriously considering creating a webside. Julian from Custom Video said that brides must be able to find you. We thought a website would be a good way to go. We'll continue to look for ways to market our beautiful videos!

We'll keep you posted to our success, and hope you will do the same. Good luck Mark!

Hi Linda

Just did my last bridal show last week, so thats 2 in 2weeks,
and the 1st one there was plenty of interest and the last one was just about a waste of time (numbers were well down on last years) and up to now no bookings

I also got a list of all the brides that had registered at both shows and was suprised how many there was! my priceing is not to high compared to others but still no bookings.

As for the ones that requested a demo dvd i asked them to let me know eitheir way as soon as possible as someone else might want that day! but as yet nothing, ITS BLOODY PAINFULL but i suppose will have to live in hope.

Hi all.

Linda.

Have you thought of doing a bit of reverse engeneering? Meaning:

Take a step back. Do a promotion. Offer a simpler package with the "old" price and a better one with more editing at the "new" price. Maybe the new price scared them off a bit. Since it seems to me that you still do not have yet enough brand name to get top bookings, advertise a lower rate so people start phoning, then, you can show them what they can get if they pay you more.

I truly understand your pains. B/Gs often do not apreciate the effort and time we put into their wedding videos. They only see the money you are trying to get.

I was very fortunate. I stumbled across a still photographer who is the top in his area, does'nt do video, and was fedup with the fellow doing video for him. I showed him my work, he liked it, and gave me a wedding to test me. He liked it even more. So now in the beginning of the season, all I have to do is wait for his call to give me dates. A real blessing. And he dumped the other guy :)

The best of luck to you,
Arnaldo

Hi

This must be a global thing. Everywhere (the last couple of years) the marketing of digital video is high. Young guys and girls start video as a hobby and because the same companies that sell "tell" them that they will get rich in a year they buy them selves a camera and they start weddings with $500.00.
This was not happening 10 years ago: less marketing, and no digital.
I do not mind about this situation, besides I got my self back in videography because of digital.
But young guys sell (no matter if their job is good or bad) cheap.
This makes ,,problems for the rest that make a living out of video for years.
At least if there was a video organization it could find a way to check who pays taxes and who does not. Who is legal and who is not. Since this organization does not exist (I am sorry but my belief is that WEVA is a business ) then things will be the same and get worst.
I still believe that the good guys will survive:)

Anthony

Hi Anthony,

Problem today is that many people buy the gear but have NO long term business understanding. I live in a market in which the typical 2 bedroom apt. rents for around $2000 a month. Add utilities, cost of gear, food, a car to go to the weddings, etc. and one understands that one can barely cover costs at $1000 a wedding a week, let alone "make a living."

People buy the gear and under price themselves. Eventually they "go under." You see them listing their gear as "rentals" on places like craigslist or selling their gear on ebay. In the mean time a steady stream of people buy gear and go through the same process. It seems to be an endless cycle. End result is that prices stay VERY DEPRESSED.

My own mistake
I got into the wedding market with very low rates. I have over 20 years experience in "high end" post production. I also shoot/edit corporate videos, local cable spots etc.

I made the big mistake in judging how I long it would take me to edit a wedding. I figured one day for input and one day to edit and set my price accordingly. I got a ton of work (2-6 weddings a month). I found it can take a full 40 hour work weed or longer to edit a wedding. It began to impact my other video work.

Of course my first batch of wedding client gave me good recommendation at various wedding/bridal web forums. BUT I raised my rates . . . still low in my opinion . . . but what I used to charge for an edited wedding I now charge for a raw video DVD set with menus and chapter markers. That's a day of inputing and a day of encoding with menu and chapter markers. That leaves me time to do my other video work unless the wedding client pays for editing.

So I get a slew of inquiries based on those past recommendations but very few bookings. I do the same good work so it isn't a "quality" issue. Price shopping has become dominant. On "WedPlan" I'd say 90% of the brides want to pay only $750-$1000 in THIS market (see above for cost of living!).

Of course a "young guy or girl" can certainly work at that price if they're living at home or doing an apartment share with 3 others. I suspect these are the folks who are getting these jobs.

DV has created a low cost of entry. I too have no problem with that. That's how I've been able to go from "high end post staffer" to lower end production/post producion on our own (my wife and I - she actually "owns" the business). This underpricing has become rampant all over the video industry but it's the worst in the wedding biz. Probably because the "kids" don't jump into cable spots or corporate videos . . . they see weddings as an easy entry point.

I also see the bridal mags and web sites as fault. Saw one mag that claimed it can take "up to 20 hours" to edit a wedding (implying a higher priced multi camera shoot no less!). They simply misinform brides about the time and value of a wedding videography. Hey all you have to do is compare wedding videography prices to wedding photography to see the myth perpetuated in the market place.

One thing we videographers should look at is how to educate the bridal mags/forums. Alas, if you're in the biz any writing you do is seen as "marketing" rather than an honest expose on the costs of doing business.

Glad to see I'm not the only one who's noticed this stuff. I do hope it's possible to collectively change the market.

Hi Graig, and all of you that feel the same way.

Regarding business/prices and marketing again


It won't get any better. It will get worse. Prices are going down because new people sell cheap. When these new people will get old (just a few years down the road) other new people will show up.
Technology and "gear" will always sell from now on; are "cool", therefore consumers (potential videographers ) will always buy.
New web directories every year (where you can promote your web-site) makes pro's or wannabes acting like my wife at Macys sales.
Marketing is powerful - most of these people got Master's degrees and know how to sell, we are not - we know how to make videos.

I love making videos. I love the competition - good things are coming out. But I hate to give $ 100.00 for a ,,,battery or $ 300.00 for a wind screen, or $1.000 for a tripod?! Man,, this money will get you a used car!

I believe that too many pros are addicted to Hi-quality gear. I can save lots of money (and put it into advertisement instead) if I buy with common sense.
What good will does a mic that costs $700 when a $200 will end up sound the same? They both have the same freq-range.
What is the difference editing with $500 pc monitors while my $150 dell will do the job?

So, we can save from high-priced gear, high priced advertising, expensive cars (do we really need a 30k SUV to deliver a better video?!) survive and step-by-step grow/improve our business.

Now that I said it all, I feel much better!!

"Problem today is that many people buy the gear but have NO long term business understanding. I live in a market in which the typical 2 bedroom apt. rents for around $2000 a month. Add utilities, cost of gear, food, a car to go to the weddings, etc. and one understands that one can barely cover costs at $1000 a wedding a week, let alone 'make a living.'"

A question worth asking here is what's the average income in your area, especially for people who don't have the necessary qualifications for some of the better paying jobs? If the answer to that question is less than what someone can make doing wedding videos at $1000 each, then maybe peole's business understanding isn't so bad after all. Perhaps the figure should be a little higher than $1000, but a lot of people would be happy to have that kind of weekly income and be their own boss.

Clearly competition for producing wedding videos is increasing. If you've been doing it successfully for a while and are suddenly finding you can't pull in enough money to make things work, then you either need to figure out a way to adjust to the new reality or consider other alternatives. Bemoaning the increased competition won't change anything.

Kevin, I think you're missing the point. In my market one can't make enough to make ends meet. People who are charging $750-$1000 for a wedding in my market are "weekend warriors" who have day jobs. They work 40-50 hours a week at that job and then spend nights editing wedding (meanting they're working 80-90 hours a week!). Otherwise these are kids living at home or in a shared apartment so they only need to pay a few hundred towards rent.

This came up because we've been apartment hunting and we're seeing 650sq ft studios in INDUSTRIAL (read NOT luxury!) areas renting for as hight as $2200. I'm not talking Manhattan here either . . . outer boroughs (counties).

Me, I DON'T depend on weddings for my income. As I said I do local cable spots, industrials, demo reels. I can make more money shooting and editing an actor demo reel than a wedding. It's specifically the wedding market, in my market, that DOES NOT match other market conditions.

Craig: I see your point, and unfortunately it probably won't change anything. If most couples are satisfied with the results they get by hiring 'weekend warriors' for significantly less than what a full-time wedding videographer would have to charge, then it's up to the full-timers to figure out how to respond to that. This is arguably a bad thing for all concerned, but I think we all agree it's the direction we're heading until couples decide to put more value on video.

Kevin,
The "odd" thing about this is that I don't see anything this bad in the Wedding Photography business. This leads to the broader question about not only couple's attitudes towards video but videographer's attitudes towards their prices. I know many "weekend warrior" wedding photgs and they have no problem making reasonable money for their time. Since most of them do no Photoshop touch up, they're just doing an album, labs are doint the prints, it doesn't even impact their weekly hours much.

1) Part of it is the attitude of couple's BUT

2) part if it is how bridal magazines misinform people about the time and cost of doing business as a videographer

3) and a large part is also that "weekend warrior" videographers will work at much lower rates based on hours put in compared to "weekend warrior" photogs.

Based on this thread, I'm not the only one seeing the impact and even seems some of us are seeing a significant change in bookings just since last year.

I'd thought I'd add that we full time videographers have what was once a few good sell points. We have our experience and quality of our work. What seems to have changed is a significant increase in demand for price over quality though.

So many of the inquiries I've gotten this year (and I get many, word of mouth has worked for me) start with , "well we just want something simple." That has meant they want cheap. But once talking to them "simple" still involves an fully edited wedding. In their minds the main effort seems to be the decision on using B&W and Diffusion filters, transitions, slow mos, which really isn't the bulk of the editing work.

Now what can WE do to improve the market collectively?

Craig: I'd say this all reflects a continuing emphasis on photography as the "must have" record of wedding day events, with video still taking a back seat in terms of both expectations and budget priorities. I can think of several ways to try to counter-act that, but I'm starting to believe the best answer is to offer combined video and photography services. If people are willing to pay more money for photography than for video and the latter is arguably more work, why not collect the money for both activities and increase your income per hour that way?

My brother is convinced that we're headed for a day when most couples expect one company to meet all their video and photography needs at some reasonable package price, since these are in some sense related services. As an added bonus, if videographers are providing the photography we might finally be able to restrain the impact the photographer has on the video, which is often quite problematic.

My wife and I are in the process of shopping for new photography equipment now and getting formal training in professional photography techniques. I'd suggest more videographers consider doing likewise.

Photos are much easier to view. You can hang them all over your house. Videos are more trouble to watch. That's the first inherent value difference.
Combine that with the trends in wedding memorabilia. Traditionally, a "pro" wedding photographer would show up with some lighting kits and at least a Hasselblad or two which cost more than every piece of gear the average wedding videographer even owns. Also consider the years of training to understand exposure and lighting and framing. I mean, no offense but there are an awful lot of people who think that buying a $2000 camera and a $500 computer suddenly makes them a videographer (lighting? what's that?). Then they go around undercutting everyone's prices to get work (because they have no experience and thus no referrals) and the next thing you know, the industry won't pay anyone what their worth.
The best videography I've seen comes from traditional photographers. There actually was a time when you had to know the "Sunny f16" rule, and most videographers couldn't tell you an EV from ET and that translates into lower production values. Wanna improve your video's? Buy some lights (or at least some reflectors) and learn to use them, buy a fully manual camera and experiment with it, learn how shutter speed and aperture effect the image.
Video "is" more work to do well and the production values better be there if you want good money for it, but don't start thinking photography's cheap and easy to just "add on". Take a look at some of the equipment you're going to need. If you cringe about a $2500 camera, heck that'll barely get you a decent lens!

Rhett: that's an interesting mix of thoughts there, but the most pertinent observation is that pricing for videos has dropped because someone with a $2000 camera and a decent computer can make a video good enough to keep most customers happy. The same would appear to apply to photography today, a point which I avoided mentioning in my previous post. Bottom line is that most consumers are price conscious shoppers, and are simply not going to pay $3-5K or so for wedding photography plus another similar amount for videography. But there's every indication that they might be willing to pay a fair amount for some decent combination of the two services, and that's where I'm predicting the industry is heading.

I have to smile a bit when someone starts talking about elaborate equipment and complex production values, when it's obvious from what's happening to pricing that most customers don't really care about all that. Clearly we should all strive to improve the quality of our work on an ongoing basis, but it's just not the case that you need a master's degree and a truckload of equipment to produce marketable results.

Regarding equipment costs, it's a bit silly to try to compare photography and video gear, but it's clearly the case that one can spend a great deal of money on either one. At the high end of video you've got high-definition cameras which can easily cost upwards of $50K each, but almost no one uses those for weddings because customers aren't willing to pay for that...and now you've got the Sony HDV cameras at $3500 each which produce decent HD footage. Most photographers I've seen don't look like they own too many $2500 lenses, and I'll bet they don't have multiple production computers with terabytes of storage on them. It's pointless to claim that the typical photographer is going to own more gear than the typical videographer; there's a wide range in that regard in both industries.

P.S. The ease of sharing video is rapidly improving. When brides can carry their complete wedding video in a device the size of a large cell phone in their purse (which is almost true now), I think we'll see a lot more interest in viewing that compared to staring at a few still photographs. But there will be a place for both...

You're absolutely right Kevin. My point is from a customers perspective. Photography has been around for a very long time and much of that time, including today, the best equipment was outside of the reach of the average consumers budget. The pros were shooting medium format. The higher quality justified the higher price. Years of training the client base taught them that it cost's so much because the skill AND the equipment were abnormally expensive. Ever priced a Hasselblad kit with a few bodies and lenses and backs? It's a lot more than a 35mm rig the brides father has. The problem is that there hasn't been the same "re"-education of the client, based on video.
It doesn't help that it doesn't hold the same value as still images (because of the ease of viewing). But the whole industry has been telling them how easy it is to make your own video (I mean companies like Sony, Apple, Microsoft etc.). Then someone shows up with a video camera that is easily within the budget of the brides father (heck the dress cost more than the shooters camera in some cases, and the fathers 35mm camera could certainly cost more, mine does). Now the impression to pay someone a decent wage is overlooked by the fact that they (the family) think "they" could shoot it themselves. If the equipment is no better than they could afford to buy, and we all know it's super easy to do (courtesy of marketing lies) then "why the heck are you charging me so much, at least the photographers got a 22MP Hassy H1D under his arm."
It's a nasty scene. I know video is a lot of work, you know video is a lot of work, but until "they" know it is, everyone suffers. It doesn't help that someone would offer to shoot one for a really low rate either because they are just screwing it up for everyone, including themselves. I'll bet if it cost them $50K in equipment and a dozen years of training they would think twice about working for $300 a day (and it would be much easier to justify the higher cost).
I'll bet the trend to offer combo packages will pick up. But it'll be best served with strategic partnerships of similarly skilled artists. Why try to offer a new trade when you can't be behind both cameras at once anyway. Learn the skill to better your own work, but partner with a good photographer and let them do their job. Besides, it'll save setup costs, that Hassy, in case you didn't know, runs around $20K+.
Sometimes you have to look at the psychology of things. How many normal people do you know have even heard of Mamiya (http://www.mamiya.com/), Rollei (http://www.rollei.de/index_e.html), or Hasselblad (http://www.hasselblad.se/)? When they hear these names there is a certain amount of mystery behind them because of their "Pro" status. Say you're using a Sony VX2000 and it just kind of... blah. They can get that at Fry's. Doesn't instill the same mystery as if you said it was a Sony DSR-570. NOW there's something they could go "what?", and you could say, "you know, the same kind used by the TV stations and cost's more than your car, that's why I'm charging you $5K!" Of course then you still have the battle of the cheap, video just isn't as valuable as still work to the consumers. Until it becomes cheap enough to hang a flat panel TV in the hall to run your wedding video's on, the still photo will command higher value.


p.s. add to all this, the tremendous stress levels of shooting video during a wedding and it gets worse.
There needs to be some education handed out to the client base as a whole. Why doesn't someone from the wedding industry write a really great article with in-depth detail and photo's of how a good wedding video works and what it should cost (what it "SHOULD" cost) and submit it to BRIDE magazine a few times a year? That's a start, could even bring you some good business too.

Equipment. The very fact that we're bringing up HDV proves a point. Both tasks use expensive equipment. Both require talent. The typical videographer will have to buy a new camera, new computer, update software every couple of years. Thousands of dollars.

I know many good photographers that use their old and excellent and expensive film cameras for many years and even with new digital technology, don't really need to upgrade.

The reason prices are so much lower for videography is that people are accepting prices that, if they're full time, don't even cover the costs of their $2000 camera and "decent" computer, cover the rent/mortgage, car to go to and from weddings, etc.

There's a wide ranging client base to keep all of us busy BUT when I see a quantifiable 80-90% of price requests below the lowest base to sustain a business, WE are faced with a serious market problem.

Fortunately most of my video income does not come from weddings. Others are less fortunate. I can turn around a very low budget cable spot in two days and make as much as the 6 days it would take to shoot and edit a wedding based on the predominate rate for weddings in my market.

Rhett Allen wrote:

*****Why doesn't someone from the wedding industry write a really great article with in-depth detail and photo's of how a good wedding video works and what it should cost (what it "SHOULD" cost) and submit it to BRIDE magazine a few times a year? That's a start, could even bring you some good business too.******


The link below is not for videography, but it makes a good point.




http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/photo/essays/vanRiper/031222.htm


John

"The link below is not for videography, but it makes a good point."

Interesting article, but as I've noted in other posts I think many photographers do significantly overcharge their customers for what they deliver, especially in terms of whether they even give clients copies of all their good pictures. This appears to be changing somewhat with the advent of digital photography and increasing competition, but many photographers still appear to believe they have a right to gouge their customers for simple snapshot-sized prints. And I've met very few wedding photographers who have any concept of how to minimize their impact on wedding videography, even those who swear they'll do their best to keep out of the way. It's time for wedding photographers to make a major change in the way they do business, and if the old-timers won't do so then hopefully the newcomers will.

Kevin

Im sure most people are thinking the same thing about wedding videographers being over paid. The difference is photography always comes first in terms of budget. Videography is more like a luxury to most people.

I do both photography and videography at weddings. Most videographers can be just as annoying in terms of getting in the way of shots. It depends on the person.

John

Why can't photopraphers use a zoom lens for CU? :)

<<<-- Originally posted by Young Lee : Why can't photopraphers use a zoom lens for CU? :) -->>>

It's a little more complicated than that. That's what years of experience teach you. Just because you "can" zoom, doesn't mean you should. If someone is getting paid to do a job professionally, they should do the best job they can. If there are other professionals working in the same place they should find a way to respect each others craft. That's part of being a "Pro".
As for pricing, I think you should get paid what you can get. I know of a guy in California who gets $7500 for a wedding shoot (photography). He has had other companies complain "you can't charge that!" His reply, "watch me!" Just because one person can't justify charging that price doesn't mean that others have the right to tell them they can't. Would you rather the amateurs control the pricing? That's where it's heading with attitudes like that. I saw a wedding album once that the couple paid $10K for. It was some of the best photography I've ever seen! It' looked like a glossy ad campaign for "Guess" or something like that, you know, something a "professional" commercial photographer would do. It didn't look like a typical album at all and you could definitely see where the extra money went... TALENT.
I have heard it said from a professional wedding shooter that you should only expect to get about 50% of the clients that walk thru your door. If you get more than that, raise your price, if you get less than that, lower your prices. Of course that depends on wether you've done the marketing to get them in your door in the first place.

John: My gripe about photographers is that some of them use a pricing scheme which takes advantage of the customer to an extent which is ultimately pointless, and would not be tolerated for any other wedding vendor service. It's impressive that they've managed to get away with this, but I think we're seeing that start to change now.

As for people getting in each other's shots, it's unfortunate that there's an inherent conflict involved in both professions trying to do their jobs. But in most situations it shouldn't be too hard for a photographer to work around a videographer with no apparent impact on the finished pictures, whereas the quality of a video is diminished every time the photographer gets in a shot during an important moment. So it would seem that the main issue for photographers isn't whether someone is in their way, but rather that they don't like being asked to modify their shooting style for the sake of the video. If we consider what's best for the customer, photographers should be willing to back off a little, and hopefully we'll gradually see progress on that.

"Would you rather the amateurs control the pricing? That's where it's heading with attitudes like that."

Where we're heading is that the free market will dictate how much people are willing to pay for both photography and videography, and it appears there's currently downward pressure on prices for both services. If this forces some established professionals to lower their prices to respond to less expensive competitors, then that will indicate they aren't demonstrating enough added value to sustain current prices. It's not up to any of us where this ends up, except to offer the best quality we can and try to convince potential customers to pay a fair price to get it. If they all decide to settle for amateur work and pricing, that will either mean that the amateurs have gotten pretty good or that customers simply don't care. Either way, you can't stop the trend by griping about it; just do better work.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Shaw

Either way, you can't stop the trend by griping about it; just do better work. -->>>

I agree with doing better work. If you are always improving your craft you will see a definate increase in sales! I am definately not the best at videography but I always work on improving.

I haven't had a bride tell me she was unhappy with my work. My demo they watch at the time of the booking is the same type of work they will get after I finish their wedding. Most times, I have improved a bunch since my last demo. I redo my demo's in January and July with some of my latest work.

I would also say that many business in my area do better work, but they also charge much more for their product. Kind of like the difference between a Lexus and a Toyota, both get you to the same place. One is just a bit nicer than the other. Not only that, there a big differences between a film type wedding and a documentary style of videography. I would like to venture into a cinematic style but I need to improve on that type of shooting style before I attempt to sell it!

Sometimes, gripping about makes you feel better :) Some photographers DO NOT PLAY NICE! I always attempt to have a good relationship will all the photographers I run into.

Jon

Well when the bride is paying $3000 for the photography and $750 for the videographer, who do you think gets to be "in the way."

BTW, I've ALWAYS had good relations with the photogs at my weddings. We usually talk about positioning and, in addition, when the relationship works well, we're eachother eyes. They'll spot me when I'm getting something good and come over to grab a still and I'll do likewise, without problem.

Alas there's still no good reason why videographer should be paid so much less.