Over the last month I have read a lot about the FX1/Z1. A lot of good things have been said about them. Nevertheless I think it is to early to switch to HDV. If one spends over 5000 euro one may expect to get a cam which is able to get well footage on action. For instance a basketball game is out of the question at the moment. Guys we have have to wait till the FX2/Z2, like the jump Sony made from the VX1000 to the VX2000. Hopefully it will be around next year around this time.

<<<-- Originally posted by Hans ter Lingen : For instance a basketball game is out of the question at the moment. -->>>

why is this out of the question - can you explain it more preciselly?

filip

I doubt Sony would give only a 1 year product life to the FX1/Z1 series cameras.

I'd suspect that Sony will bring out a "bug-fix" to the Z1/FX1 on about 12-18 months, and a Z2 in about 24 - 36 months. They may well release a full-size HDV camera with additional specs sooner, but not in the same form-factor as the Z1.

I also don't think sony will release a new model soon. They made a gigantic leap with this one, now they'll just wait and see what the competition will do. Remember they released the vx2000 five years after the vx1000 ('95 - '00). Until the new pana comes (we'll have to see what that one can deliver), the fx1/z1 is the best low-cost HD-solution.

Also I think the problems with the action shots is less apparent than some posts claim. Sure, if you review this from a technical point of view, you know there will have to be a rez drop due to GOP compression. On the other hand, it's almost undetectable unless you make a whip-pan, and even then is the eye much less aware of resolution because your seeing motion blur anyway (unless you put shutter to 1/10000).

Bottom line is, you can read all you can on forums and reviews and marketing pages, what really matters is what you think of it looking at it (from a proper display). You say you have read a lot; have you already seen (moving) fx1/z1-footage on a HD-display? Compare footage from this camera and others (xl2 - dvx100a) in a pro video store and make your decision from there. It's really easy to keep reading and reading reviews but in the end you'll just have to see it. Good luck!

Steven

Guys i am not even so critical in footage as you all are but sharp, smooth footage without artifacts even my wife can detect when fast panning shooting action is the minimum what you can demand from a camcorder. Else I just buy a didgital still cam.

Hans, the camera HAS smooth, sharp footage, as much as any film cam is going to have. You can't do a high speed pan with a 35MM cam either. The compression format CAN create a problem, but if you know your tool, then it's not a problem, it's a feature.
I don't care what tool we're discussing, whether it's saws, motorcycles, or caster wheels, if you know the limitations of that tool, you'll be a much better user of the tool.
HDCam, HDCam SR, Varicam, BetaSP, all have their limitations.
Just don't expect to shoot racecars while sitting in one and trying to whip pan at 200 mph. Otherwise, you'll be fine.
If this cam can provide great footage in a helicopter moving 60 mph and bouncing up and down, it's gonna work fine for you, too.

The biggest change going from the VX1000 to the VX2000, was low-light capability. The VX1000 had notoriously poor low-light function. The Z1/FX1 already have excellent low-light capability(perhaps not quite as good as the VX2000, but certainly FAR better than the VX1000). So I guess what I'm saying is you shouldn't expect the same difference in picture quality in the next version of this cam. Jump in, the water's fine!

As for the basketball game being "out of the question", huh? My friend has the FX1 too and shot his son's basketball game in a rather dimly lit school gymnasium. The result was utterly stunning. We both said this could have been on ESPN HD, it was that good. You really should try to see this camera in action.

I have seen some stills of the footage of a basket ball game and I could not even read the name on the shirt!!!! Maybe the guy did not know yet how to operate the fx1. So what you are saying is that it is suitable for sports events but also the kids playing around even at fairly low lighting conditions????

Hans, rather than reading BS parroted by anti-HDV folks, go shoot the camera. Even if it's just in the camera store. Asking questions along these lines is shooting ducks in the dark, you'll never be satisfied with the answers you get until you see the footage for yourself. I've posted all sorts of footage on our site, there is all sorts of difficult and challenging footage, but until you see the EXACT THING you've got in your mind's eye, you'll not have the answer you want. Go find it. Others here have, they've chased it down.

I can't answer why the footage was unreadable. Maybe he didn't know the cam, maybe it was downsampled badly, maybe his editor did a bad job with it, maybe the kid was simply lightning fast, maybe he parked his cursor on the wrong frame. There are a hundred reasons why it could have looked bad, and the only one answer is for you to have controlled the situation and worked with the cam yourself.
Obviously, the hundreds of owners of this cam can't be so wrong, right?

Where I live the Z1 is not available yet and the fx1 is not in stock anymore so I can not do a test in the store. So maybe you guys can do a simple test for me. I want to know if it is possible to make a 180 degrees panning shot starting from left (focus infinity) and going to the right (again focus infinity) in 2 seconds. In between (thus at 90 degrees) the focus point should be about 10 m. Do you get a footage with no artifacts and in focus direct out of the Fx1/Z1 (so no conversions) on to a plasma screen or HD monitor????

Sorry, but a 180 degree pan in two seconds would be a worthless shot with any camera in my opinion. Except for so-called "swish pans" that are made blurry on purpose. Also I know of no auto-focus camcorder lens in this price range that can update itself this quickly.

You could, however, pre-set a series of focus points (from infinity to 10m back to infinity) with the Z1.

Chris : Youare right that it is not a shot you will use a lot but it is to see how good the cam is. So what can I expect from this cam on this point?

1. Not even the F900 could do a 2 second, 180 degree pan.
2. Even if it could, it would look terrible on delivery, which is MPEG in *most* situations. (broadcast or DVD delivery)
3. IF you could get a good pan at that speed, there is no way you'd be able to tell if it were artifacted or not because of the blur that would accompany the pan.

There is a plethora of footage downloadable from the web. There are reasonably fast pans on the VASST site. I've also shot extremely high speed motion with the cam at the Eddie, which is the largest and allegedly fastest surfing competition in the world. You can download that yourself from the VASST site.

In April I plan on strapping my Z1 onto my Durango and a couple race cars when my car club has it's next lapping day. I broke my car so I can't try it on that one, but I hope to get some beautiful shots. I'll try to post some shots of that.

Racing!

I was out at Second Creek Raceway the first weekend I had my FX1. All I can say is the action looks GREAT! If you pause the high action frames they are not as clear as when stopped BUT that is the same with ANY camera which uses a data limit on compression (i.e. 99% of the market)

Here's the thing tho, when you watch the footage full motion the way you suppose to watch it (after all we are trying to capture a moving image right?) the footage looks just as good as anything I've seen. If we are talking about capturing action it's far and away better than even 35mm film because of 60i. Anyways I'm getting sidetracked.

I had an awesome time at the track and I can't find anything wrong with the footage. It was my own test after hearing all of this about blurring and blockiness. I have NO sign of either and I shot every kind of shot imaginable including strapping the Cam onto a Formula Mazda that hits 215mph with even the short gears installed. I would also like to say that sony sure has AWESOME stabilization on this cam.

One last thing, I was in a local new station last week and guess what they were using to go shoot an interview? None other than a VX1000, the shot looked just great. Pretty amazing since it was released 10 YEARS ago!

My 2$,
Eric James

Eric, thanks for your real-life insight on the motion issue. The biggest problem with discussion boards - not this one specifically -is that it only takes one piece of well-worded disinformation for an opinion on a specific characteristic to begin to grow into a "fact". I think the idea that motion is not handle well comes from conjecture and opinions voiced by naysayers BEFORE the FX1 was released, based on their experience with motion in HDTV broadcast. When the camera was released, somebody did a few whip-pans with it, and wrote an authoritative-sounding "test" up, confirming these suspicions - no good for motion of any sort. The camp who then pushed this pseudo-information to the hilt where the 720P supporters, as to them anything 1080i has got to be crap.

The reality is of course different, as your first-hand experiences show. The solution for doubters is simple, as usual. Test the FX1/Z1 for your specific requirements. If you're happy with the results, use it. If not, choose another tool which you are happy with.

<< it only takes one piece of well-worded disinformation for an opinion on a specific characteristic to begin to grow into a "fact" >>

This is something we're very conscious of around here, and we take great pains to avoid it, to the extent that I have had the unfortunate but requisite duty of permanently booting the (thankfully rare) individuals who have rudely insisted that their horribly misguided opinions actually constituted facts. You can still find these clowns elsewhere on the web, and while they seem to enjoy talking trash about me personally just as much they enjoy spreading opinionated misinformation, the point is that they're no longer posting *here,* which is all I really care about.

Opinions are fine, but factual information is much better, and we place a significantly higher value on that here at DV Info Net.

You need to be very careful about making assumptions about how a person has arrived at a different opinion than someone else has however....

The simple 'fact' is that a 'fact' isn't one just because the majority agree it is so. The majority used to believe the 'fact' that the Earth was flat. And many a different interpreter of the 'facts' paid with their lives for speaking otherwise.

Freedom of speech demands that there is a degree of moral fortitude in believing strongly enough in the value of the 'facts' as you see them, while accepting a different interpretation by others.

If people feel threatened by 'facts' that challenge the strength of an individuals' or groups' belief in their version of the 'facts', it may be time to look much harder in the mirror.....

Tough things these damned Democracies!!!

If I'm not mistaken, 35mm cameras shouldn't do fast pans, either.

heath

I hear ya Steve, but we're not concerned with faith-shaking matters of cosmos and theology, but rather specifications in a product brochure. Around here, differences of opinion are tolerated much easier when they're expressed in an amiable fashion, and that's my original point, I guess. Since we're not concerned with witch hunts (we don't burn them -- we just ostracize them), we generally ask our heretics to please be as equally well mannered and easy going.

That said, we are very careful.

The right to Freedom of Speech guarantees that as the owner of this board, I may run it however I see fit. I may choose to delete some, none, or all of the content here and be well within my rights to do that. Of course I would never do such a thing, but it's important sometimes to point out where one's rights end and another's begin.

But this is all dreadfully off-topic now, so let's please return to the subject at hand. Thanks,

Thanks, Chris.

The only time I ever saw a "quick" camera update was the DVX100A, but that came out nearly 2 years after the initial announcement. And the A had more features added to it, to DP's specifications, etc.

So unless Sony does something like that with the Z1 or FX1, I doubt we'll see a major update for a while.

hwm

Agreed, Heath -- although I wouldn't be surprised if Sony did a shoulder-mount version of the Z1 pretty soon, like they have with previous product lines, as in the VX2000 -- PD150 -- DSR250.

If JVC's rumored 3-chip 24p sub-$5000 camera comes out and kicks butt, Sony may have to release a competiting 24p camera. It's funny, these cameras have a huge shelf life for 6 months to a year, then the next one comes out with better features and BOOM, it's all over for the previous model. Though I doubt the Z1/FX1 will be buried any time soon, like the HD10 and HD1.

hwm

24p isn't part of the HDV specification, right?

I think the shelf life for the Z1 will be 3 years at least. It's basically got all the features needed to be relevant for at least 3 more years. The software out there hasn't even caught up to it yet, so that's a sign that it's ahead of its time!

If we look at history we can look at HDV like DV, and I think all these new cameras (including the Z1) will be relevant for quite a while. The next generation of HDV cameras (in my opinion) won't really show up until around 2007. We still haven't even gotten the first round from most companies! It won't be until 2008 if HDV takes off...they'll milk this batch until then.

no, but it looks like JVC is gonna make it. JVC isn't happy about the FX1, because it kicks the HD1's butt, same with the Z1 and the HD10.

hwm

<<<-- Originally posted by Hans ter Lingen : I have seen some stills of the footage of a basket ball game and I could not even read the name on the shirt!!!! Maybe the guy did not know yet how to operate the fx1. So what you are saying is that it is suitable for sports events but also the kids playing around even at fairly low lighting conditions???? -->>>

Absolutely! Without a doubt! I'm telling you the footage my friend shot was just stunning. Crystal clear with facial expressions of the kids clearly visible from across the gym floor in wide angle.

<<<-- Originally posted by Hans ter Lingen : Where I live the Z1 is not available yet and the fx1 is not in stock anymore so I can not do a test in the store. So maybe you guys can do a simple test for me. I want to know if it is possible to make a 180 degrees panning shot starting from left (focus infinity) and going to the right (again focus infinity) in 2 seconds. In between (thus at 90 degrees) the focus point should be about 10 m. Do you get a footage with no artifacts and in focus direct out of the Fx1/Z1 (so no conversions) on to a plasma screen or HD monitor???? -->>>

Probably the best way to answer this is to simply say that I've seen no difference in panning (at a reasonably sane rate) and artifacting between the FX1 and the Sony VX2000. If you're familar with that camera (VX2000, PD150), you've got your answer.

However, I couldn't agree with Chris more about the "2 second pan". No camera (film or video) will present such a pan in a cleary resolved manner.

Gents, I'm not sure why the notion keeps coming up of 35mm cameras not being "capable" of fast pans. I assume this is based on the well-documented concept that at a certain speed, strobing becomes an issue due to the 24 fps capture. What is less discussed (and also applicable to 24p digital shooting) is that strobing is not simply a threshold, it is a window and thus it is possible to avoid it by panning faster as well as slower than given range of pan speeds. A good example of this would be many of Scorsese's films, where the camera will pan quickly from one character to the next, but yet are not truly whip pans in speed.

Finally, if we are to compare 60i shooting as apples to apples (i.e. shooting film at 60 fps), there is no strobing issue and all speeds of pan are now acceptable in the film medium (as well as other digital formats), but if understand correctly, still an issue with HDV?

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : It's funny, these cameras have a huge shelf life for 6 months to a year, then the next one comes out with better features and BOOM, it's all over for the previous model. Though I doubt the Z1/FX1 will be buried any time soon, like the HD10 and HD1.

hwm -->>>

That said, I only sold my trusty old VX1000 and VX9000 in September last year - and got $ 1 400 and & $2 500 for them respectively! Their legendary status made them sought-after by wedding guys, and the VX1000 is still popular with underwater cameramen who own custom-built housings specifically for the camera. The VX9000 was bought by a guy over the phone, sight-unseen. He deposited the cash, and sent a courier to collect it. Funnily, I'd often have cameramen with PD 170's ask me what I'd shot that "film-like" footage on when they'd visit my edit suite. Next camera for the push will be my JVC500 - I plan to buy another HDV camera later this year - waiting to see what NAB uncovers.

You're gonna have a long wait for the next model - Sony will keep this around for a while, it's a great camera - they do this with innovative models, we are actually lucky to get the Z1 fairly close the the FX1 release, remember it was quite a long time after the VX1000 that they released the PD150 and the PD150 was around for a few years before the PD170 appeared. The Z1 is so high end that Sony will want to milk it for as long as they can, also they will not replace a pro model very quickly because it takes a while for their professional customer base to get kitted out with these things and they will not like it if Sony replace it too soon and accessories ect don't match models. Expect to see an update/facelift in maybe 18 months and a new model in maybe 2.5 - 3 years I think.

Bear in mind when making a decision between the Z1 and FX1 that pro models hold their value better than consumer models and are easier to sell.

Originally posted by Simon Harris
Bear in mind when making a decision between the Z1 and FX1 that pro models hold their value better than consumer models and are easier to sell..
Who sells their cameras?

I still have every camera I've owned. It may not make much financial sense, but after spending that much time with a camera and bonding with her, I just can't ever bring myself to get rid of a camera.

I'll sell my wife before I sell one of my cameras.

Now... that's what I call devotion, Bryan.

My old friend Michael Pappas changes cameras about as frequently as he changes socks. By keeping all of the boxes, packing material, etc., he could easily get about what he had initially paid for any particular camera and use that cash to buy into the next one.

Some people change up -- others don't -- different strokes for different folks, I guess.

Don't forget the tax considerations. If you use your camera in a business and are depreciating it, just be careful about how much you sell our camera for. If you sell it for more than the current depreciated value, you'll have to pay taxes on the difference. Gotta love the IRS.

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan McCullough :
... I'll sell my wife before I sell one of my cameras. -->>>

this is really good one :)

any links or photos? ;)))))))))

filip

<<<-- Originally posted by Bryan McCullough : Who sells their cameras?

I still have every camera I've owned. It may not make much financial sense, but after spending that much time with a camera and bonding with her, I just can't ever bring myself to get rid of a camera.

I'll sell my wife before I sell one of my cameras. -->>>

Bryan,

The thing on Ebay posting is pretty cut and dried, but I don't think Chris has ruled on posting a spouse in the Classifieds.

Items posted in Private Classifieds sell best if they're in new or like-new condition with original packing material and operator's instructions included!

VX9000? Aren't we about 30 years away from that (since they update cameras every 5 years or so, the VX2100 notwithstanding)... ;-)

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Items posted in Private Classifieds sell best if they're in new or like-new condition with original packing material and operator's instructions included! -->>>

Wow!! Bryan McCullogh's wife gets a make-over, and comes with a manual!!!

Quick someone make an outrageous offer on one of his old cameras, and he'll just have to sell the Missus!!!!

Maybe we should all settle down before somebody's significant other takes a peak at this thread! Ah, what the heck. And Heath, where ya been? The VX9000 is old, old news, long since discontinued. I gave up on understanding camcorder model numbering conventions long ago...

Hans (If you still follow the thread ;)

I would like to have insights from you after you tried either the FX1 or Z1. A lot of misconceptions seems to be floating over HDV. As it was said earlier in the thread, there's nothing like real-life experience. If I had relied on the first FX1 footage I saw, I would not even have bothered to check the camera in the first place but the camera did blew me away when I finally got my hands on it, oh yes it did...

There are perspectives ahead folks!

Chris, I think the VX9000 was the PAL version of the DSR200, only it was strictly DV, not DVCAM. It looked the same as the 200.

Bill: Thanks for the memory jog!

Eric: Even more thanks for bringing us back on topic!

You read it here first.:


SONY will have a shoulder-mounted camera which will be the same as the FX-1 in the near future.


LIKE THE SONY DSR 250 is to the SONY VX2100/PD170.

Chris: I had NO idea.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Lou Bruno : You read it here first.:


SONY will have a shoulder-mounted camera which will be the same as the FX-1 in the near future.


LIKE THE SONY DSR 250 is to the SONY VX2100/PD170. -->>>

Does "near future" = NAB?

Careful now...I don't recall Chris saying there WILL be one, but maybe that he wouldn't be surprised if there was one. Pretty big difference between "not surprised" and "will be."
You don't want to get Chris in trouble with a manufacturer now, do ya? :-)

<<<-- Originally posted by Bill Pryor : Chris, I think the VX9000 was the PAL version of the DSR200, only it was strictly DV, not DVCAM. It looked the same as the 200. -->>>

Looks kinda weird to me... http://www.planetomni.com/CAM_SONY_dcr-vx9000_DTL.shtml

Bryan: You made me think of John Belushi; "How much for the women? I want to buy your women! How much for the little girl?" ;-)