Ya guys, the panny will be awesome but let's not get ahead of ourselves. A company announcing a camera for under 10 k means it will be $9,999.99, and if you buy in state, throw in taxes to boot . . . however . . . .

Does this really matter? The Panny is UN-TOUCHABLE for that price, with that codec in 1080p. Yes, the interchangeable lenses on the JVC is great, but please, HDV codec? And if you use it's uncompressed out (with the understanding that their definition of "uncompressed" is may be as sucky as the Sony Z-1 "uncompressed" out, which has a registered color space of less than 2:1:1 after transfered to computer with top end AJA cards) you'll have to get a specialized HD-SDI converter and then drag around a raid system around for footage acquistion? No dice.

But Panny hit snake eyes with theirs. Awesome quality image and incredible shooting convenience to boot. I think it's possible that this camera is going to be the greatest invention for Hollywood bound indy filmmakers since . . . well, maybe EVER.

If the lens is a decent one, which it probably will be, and you've got FCP HD for nearly flawless computer editing, you'll be making movies . . . I mean REAL ones, none of that first college project crap.

Is this, or is this not worth 10 k?

Everyone keeps saying that since Panny said under $10k, that it must be $9,999.99...but the FX/Z1s are nowhere near that, and when the specs were first announced it was said to also be "under $10k". Under $10k can mean alot of things--the actual MSRP may not even be set yet! But most of all, it can mean $3400, $6700, or yes, even $9,999.99--but it doesn't have to mean any of those.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : I have my Dale Earnhardt flame retardant suit on. -->>>Actually, Dale Jr. was burned significantly if not seriously in a race last summer. Fire suit and all.

Questions:

1. Is there a way to record to the PC as a backup device?

2. What is the proposed mechanism for long term storage? Even a DV25 tape is huge for storage on any other media. My right foot is resting on top of a computer with 1.3 Terabytes, however that doesn't seem like nearly enough with this format.

Thanks,

David

P.S.
Conradulations on your wedding!

1. Better than recording to a PC as a backup device would be the ability to record directly to an edit-ready portable FireWire hard drive such as the FireStore FS-3 or FS-4. We should find out soon whether or not this is possible.

2. Among various alternatives for long-term storage are DVCPro HD cassettes, low-cost hard disks, Blu-Ray and DVD-HD options. Remember you're keeping only what you need... for everything else... there's always tape.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Everyone keeps saying that since Panny said under $10k, that it must be $9,999.99...but the FX/Z1s are nowhere near that, and when the specs were first announced it was said to also be "under $10k". Under $10k can mean alot of things--the actual MSRP may not even be set yet! But most of all, it can mean $3400, $6700, or yes, even $9,999.99--but it doesn't have to mean any of those. -->>>

Kevin, you're right; we don't know. I guess the hysteria, or more rightly concern, is really to do with what we are potentially seeing as being on offer. I mean, DVCProHD, recording to P2. This is so mind blowing for anyone who is in the price range most of us sit at, that we find it hard to believe that under 10K is going to be something like $5000. Especially given the cost of P2 cards. I guess Panasonic could be giving us a P2 in the box at cost to help secure sales - but I wouldn't know what that would be - 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? I have no idea.

I think the concerns are warranted, cause we all want one of these babies, but I really do think it will be $7k at a minimum. Which, yes is under 10K, but not the XL2, Z1 price range.

Aaron

<< 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? >>

But remember $1500 is not what it costs Panasonic to bundle it with the camera. That amount is significantly lower than $1500. I don't think this camera needs to be at the XL2 or Z1 price range. I think they'll still have trouble meeting the demand for it even if it's significantly more expensive than the XL2 or Z1.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : << 1/4 the retail cost of about $1500 for a 4GB card? >>

But remember $1500 is not what it costs Panasonic to bundle it with the camera. That amount is significantly lower than $1500. I don't think this camera needs to be at the XL2 or Z1 price range. I think they'll still have trouble meeting the demand for it even if it's significantly more expensive than the XL2 or Z1. -->>>


Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was trying to say taht the total cost of the P2 card in the package is really a lot less than retail. So hopefully it's not going to up the price too much, but I think it's still going to be higher than Z1/Xl2 and as you said, it probably doesn't have to be the same as them. Maybe it has to be below what JVC do with their new shoulder mount, interchangeable lens HDV machine, but that's it.

Aaron

I've never otherwise been a giant fan of the XL-1 but is there any reason why no other 4000 dollar camera offers interchangable lens mounts?

That's what I've always wondered, and asked, but noone must know. Maybe they all had higher end cameras and so didn't want to appear to be moving in on that market in case they lost sales of the high ends - especially as the low end ones got better and better.

Aaron

The JVC looks like it's coming in at 7,700 MSRP so I'll bet the Panny is cheaper than that, since no interchangeable lenses.

6995.00 list
5995.00 street

Wow, that is pretty damned cheap. If you're right, then under 10K was quite a bit under. I think yeah the Panasonic will have to be cheaper to compete for sure. The HDV hype gives them an advantage already.

Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : 1. Better than recording to a PC as a backup device would be the ability to record directly to an edit-ready portable FireWire hard drive such as the FireStore FS-3 or FS-4. We should find out soon whether or not this is possible.

2. Among various alternatives for long-term storage are DVCPro HD cassettes, low-cost hard disks, Blu-Ray and DVD-HD options. Remember you're keeping only what you need... for everything else... there's always tape. -->>>

Chris,

1. That should be the same.

2. DCProHD decks are very expensive. 30GB drives are still some time away and the media will probably be quite expensive. Currently the Panasonic tapes are bout $6 each for 1 hour of video. The lowest cost hard disks are more expensive and more fragile.

While the final movie is smaller, my archive includes my original footage. Isn't that standard practice?

It looks like this may be difficult, at least for a year or two.

David

Hi David,

<< 1. That should be the same. >>

Actually a portable FireWire (or USB2) hard drive is a better deal than lugging around a PC, primarily because the drive is much smaller, attaches directly to the camera for ease of movement, can be powered from the camera, and writes an edit-ready file (no capturing required). If you meant that the video is the same, I agree with you there, but a FireStore or similar drive is much more practical than carrying an entire PC .

<< 2. DCProHD decks are very expensive. >>

Not when you rent them by the day only as you need to.

<< Currently the Panasonic tapes are bout $6 each for 1 hour of video. >>

Remember we're talking HD. DVCPro HD tapes are much more expensive; around $30 each or more.

<< my archive includes my original footage. Isn't that standard practice? >>

P2 involves a different thought process about the workflow. If you insist on keeping all of your original footage, then it may not be the right format for you. If you're inclined to keep only what's good, that's the mindset that P2 appeals to. Hope this helps,

Just saw this posted on dvxuser. A firewire drive enclosure that includes a rechargeable lithium-ion battery with 10+ hours of usage per charge. This would be perfect if the hvx streams the data over firewire:

http://www.macpower.com/productdetails1.cfm?sku=AMS25K&cats=&catid=311,316

I like to edit out bad footage and trash it,,,never to be seen again!!

Hey are we going to get some new info today from Jan?

Bob, I have a feeling that the new info that was supposed to be coming today was the stuff that was already leaked last week.

Hope I'm wrong about that but I bet I'm not!

Will the HVX200 be able to shoot SD if a client requires it?

Or can I shoot in HD and easily downconvert to SD for editing?

According to the press release (I suppose that's what it was) it will shoot all the different flavors of HD mentioned plus progressive and interlaced varieties of SD. Who knows though, you might get a better picture shooting in HD and downconverting. Then again, with DVCPRO 50 capabilities, you might just be better off just shooting that...

"I have a feeling that the new info that was supposed to be coming today was the stuff that was already leaked last week."

Yes, that was my understanding too.
Jan made a reference on another thread that the picture and format info was the 'April 4th' info she'd been talking about.

"Will the HVX200 be able to shoot SD if a client requires it?"

Not only will it shoot SD, it will give you many options to choose from.

Both DVCPro and DVCPro50 at various frame rates, both progressive and interlaced.

Will the DVCPro50 have a better SD image than DVProHD?

On the drive vs. PC issue...a drive is smaller, however I am DV Rack addicted and have 2 5 hours batteries for the laptop. Unfortunately, there is no HD DV Rack, yet.

David

P.S.
I have received requests for more footage of this or that, him or her, long into a project (and sometimes after). Having the footage definitely helps.

You know, now that you mention DV Rack, I would think it would be easier to write a DV Rack version for DVCPRO50 or HD, since it is still based on the DV codec, versus rewriting to handle HDV, which is another beast altogether...

I hope DV Rack is paying attention...

<< Will the DVCPro50 have a better SD image than DVProHD? >>

That's a Jan question, but I would be very surprised if DVCPro HD downconverted didn't look as good as or better than DVCPro 50. Depends on the process, I guess.

<< I am DV Rack addicted and have 2 5 hours batteries for the laptop. >>

I can certainly understand and sympathize with being a DV Rack addict! That's a great piece of software. Hopefully they'll make the leap to HD soon.

<< Having the footage definitely helps. >>

In certain situations such as yours, I can fully understand that too.

Hi all,

I know that everybody's quite keen on the HD aspect of this new camera. Who can blame them?

I'm wondering, has anyone pondered what kind of framerates if you decide...OK, why would you?...but if you decide to shoot at 480p?

If you can get 60p at res of 720 maybe you could really overcrank at 480? Say 90 or even 100p?

Or am I talking crazy?

Just wondering.

sincerely,

ian

30p was the highest progressive frame rate given for SD. Don't know if there will be anything else. I doubt it.

I think shooting DVCpro50 is the best way to go if you want SD. No need for all the extra space, processing etc and it is much less compressed per frame than the HD codec (out of sheer necessity).

I though DVCPro50 supported 10 bit quantization, and DVCProHD supported 8. Which is why I thought the DVCPro50 may have better image.

David

P.S.
Ian, the DV format supports 60i NTSC or 50i PAL. 30p, 25p, and 24p are adaptations of that format. It would not be possible to store an image with a higher frame rate in that format.

Will the HVX200 be able to shoot SD if a client requires it?

Yes, and it will be able to shoot SD at the best-quality SD you can get for under $20,000.

It supports two different SD recording formats, either DVCPRO (which is the same as DV, basically) and the DigiBeta-quality DVCPRO50, which provides for less compression and twice the color resolution of any DV camera. It's the same format that's used in the $20,000 SPX800 and the $25,000 SDX900.

So yes, SD is not only possible with the HVX, but it'll probably be the best SD you can buy for less than $20,000.

<<<-- Originally posted by Brad Abrahams : Just saw this posted on dvxuser. A firewire drive enclosure that includes a rechargeable lithium-ion battery with 10+ hours of usage per charge. This would be perfect if the hvx streams the data over firewire:

http://www.macpower.com/productdetails1.cfm?sku=AMS25K&cats=&catid=311,316 -->>>


But just plugging in a drive won't work. Something at the other end needs to decode the IEEE1394 stream, and write a filesytem.

Aaron

Well, maybe, maybe not... the camera clearly writes files itself, as that's what it stores to the P2 cards... why couldn't it just send those files over firewire to an external drive, same as if you hooked it up to your computer?

<<<-- Originally posted by Kevin Dooley : Well, maybe, maybe not... the camera clearly writes files itself, as that's what it stores to the P2 cards... why couldn't it just send those files over firewire to an external drive, same as if you hooked it up to your computer? -->>>

Anything's possible for sure! I just find it hard to believe they'll do that. Haven't they just teamed up with Firestore for some thing? What I could imagine happening is some tight integration between the camera and a firestore so they work all sexily together.

Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green :
It supports two different SD recording formats, either DVCPRO (which is the same as DV, basically) and the DigiBeta-quality DVCPRO50, which provides for less compression and twice the color resolution of any DV camera.
-->>>

Thanks Barry, that was very helpful.

So does this mean the HVX can shoot SD at the 4:2:2 sampling ratios, whereas MiniDV is 4:1:1?

I'm fine with that too... the more options we have to record, the better. I think Panasonic knows what a sweet deal this is for ENG and some types of EFP, but they also have to realize that they would be able to sell even more if there were longer recording times available until lower priced P2 is a reality.

<<<-- Originally posted by Pete Wilie : <<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green :
So does this mean the HVX can shoot SD at the 4:2:2 sampling ratios, whereas MiniDV is 4:1:1? -->>>

Yes, 4:2:2 at 50mbs

Hello everybody! I found this message board through www.ag-hvx200.com. This forum is huge! My question is, what would be a reliable place to find out about the camera's specs and price after it is released? Do you know if www.ag-hvx200.com is operated by Panasonic? Is that a reliable source? Or should I just stick to reading posts here? www.ag-hvx200.com said that I can talk to Panasonic reps through forums like this one. Is it true?
I can't go to Vegas and I will need a reliable info right away.
thanks

I have found this site to be extremely reliable in it's information and very timely in it's posts around NAB... someone in Vegas will be on here posting, if Chris isn't uploading new articles to the main page himself...


BTW, where abouts are you in the Chicago area?

Jan, do tyou know and are you authorized to say:

1. Is Panasonic releasing DVCPro HD codec (for PC) for HVX200 camera?

2. Is there cooperation between Panasonic and Adobe to make Premiere Pro work with DVCPro HD from HVX200?

3. How likely is HVX200 to work with PCMCIA disks in place of P2 cards?

Tnx!

And DVCPro50...

For DVCPro50 there's codec by MainConcept, $349 or so...

And it works with Premier or Vegas? I don't recall anyone getting it work...and I tried very hard.

Matrox has a DVCPRO 50 codec for the PC, and Avid has both DVCPRO 50 and HD.

<<<-- Originally posted by Uri Blumenthal : For DVCPro50 there's codec by MainConcept, $349 or so... -->>>

This is not a DVCPRO50 codec. It basic recodes DVCPRO50 to 4:1:1. Do not be mislead here.

Best,

Jan

Jan, what's the horizontal resolution of this new HVX200 in 1080 mode? Is it 1920x1080? 1440x1080? 1280x1080?

Same question for 720p - is it 1280x720, or 960x720?

I mean both recorded and sampled. The reason I'm asking - I tried to find DVCPro-HD specs, and all I found was Adam Wilt's FAQ, where he said that DVCPro-HD 1080/60i samples 1280 Y.

Can you please educate me? Tnx!

Uri Blumenthal asked:

>1. Is Panasonic releasing DVCPro HD codec (for PC) for HVX200 camera?

We have a Partners program, and those companies that want to work with the DVCPRO HD codec can contact us and we will be happy to work with them.


>2. Is there cooperation between Panasonic and Adobe to make Premiere Pro work with DVCPro HD from HVX200?

At this point in time, Adobe has not made any contact concerning this, but my feeling is that they do what their customers want them to do. If you guys that work on the Adobe platform, you should tell them that this is what you want, and if you don't get it you will have to move in another direction. Nobody wants to lose customers, its about keeping customers and getting additional new ones.


>3. How likely is HVX200 to work with PCMCIA disks in place of P2 cards?

Well if the experiments that we have tried with them on the SPX800 are any indication, they probably won't. The small drive is the problem. But please do not let this remark turn into a thread that ate New Jersey.

Best regards,

Jan

Jan Crittenden:


Those tests you did, what was the .mbs of those test?

Since 24P/720 is a little under 40mbs ( aprox. 7 mega bytes per second ), this should not be an issue for most drives at all. Now DVCPRO HD 100, well that might be another story.

So did you guys try anything at 40mbs?

If not, what were your data rates you did test?

Now this is most important, Did you guys use the very best drives available?

What brand and size?

Since drive tecnology isa fast moving target, it will improves by the week.

Michael Pappas
htttp://www.PBASE.com/Arrfilms



<<<>3. How likely is HVX200 to work with PCMCIA disks in place of P2 cardsWell if the experiments that we have tried with them on the SPX800 are any indication, they probably won't. The small drive is the problem. But please do not let this remark turn into a thread that ate New Jersey. >>>>

Jan, regarding MainConcept DVCPRO50 codec - from their Web page <a href="http://www.mainconcept.com/codecs.shtml"></a>:

DVCPro 25: 4:1:1 Color Space, 8 Bit Quantization, data reduction of 5:1, data rate of 25 Mbit/s

DVCPro 50: 4:2:2 Color Space, 8 Bit Quantization, data reduction of 5:1, data rate of 50 MBit/s

Operating systems: Windows 98, 98SE, 2000, Me, XP
Current version: 3.0.16
Price: $349 (Download-Version)

I see <B>no</B> mentioning of recoding DVCPRO50 to 4:1:1.

P.S. I've submitted a feature request for Adobe to support DVCPro HD and HVX200. We'll see...

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston :
Well if the experiments that we have tried with them on the SPX800 are any indication, they probably won't. The small drive is the problem. But please do not let this remark turn into a thread that ate New Jersey.
Jan -->>>

Well, I'd say if Panasonic was running tests on off the shelf PCMCIA hard drives, then that answers the question about whether or not the camera will interact with different PCMCIA cards instead of P2...

Of course she has a valid point about the drive speeds. I've noticed most mini drives are nowhere near 7200 rpm and their data rates are quite low. Sure some of them say they have the capabilities, but like everything else that goes into a computer (or for that matter the LCD displays used with computers) their listed specs are usually a far cry from the "real world" performance you get from them... Which means, it's only a matter of time. Someone will test the new cam with everything under the sun I imagine.

We are doing a shoot as I write this with TWO varicams rented in from
Roscor. The DP says he has a serious case of camera envy. What I love
is you need so much less light than betacam and the images are stellar.

One cam is on a Jimmy Jib and the other is on a dolly. Both have teleprompters
hooked up.

DROOL!

Jan Crittenden

Did you you see those questions I posted a few posts back for you. Sometimes there can be so many posts, that questions get lost...................

<<<-- Originally posted by Uri Blumenthal : Jan, regarding MainConcept DVCPRO50 codec - from their Web page <a href="http://www.mainconcept.com/codecs.shtml"></a>:

P.S. I've submitted a feature request for Adobe to support DVCPro HD and HVX200. We'll see... -->>>

It is difficult to say find where I found that, but I went looking last year when a customer asked me about it. As I recall it was a bit of a needle in haystack to find what they were really doing, but it is not a DVCPRO50 codec when they are done.

Best,

Jan

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Jan Crittenden

Did you you see those questions I posted a few posts back for you. Sometimes there can be so many posts, that questions get lost................... -->>>

Hi Michael I just found it. I have to say that there are about 5 boards that are flooded with activity and I am in the middle of the preparation for NAB. Trust me when I say that I am just a bit busy. ;-) Tons of prep to do, presentations to create and marketing bulletins to write, website planning etc. You cannot imagine. So I might drop out of sight for the day but will reappear at some point to answer questions that I can answer.

So to answer your Question I think it was a 40Mb drive and we tried with with 25 and 50. I think it was a Toshiba. But I think that the little drive didn't understand what it was supposed to do and since it was not designed to write video and a sustained rate, we blew its little mind. That is not to say that once that industry sees that there is another market they might figure out how to make it work. The thing is once we move away from tape drives and turn it into an IT question, change seems to happen at a much faster rate.


Hope that helps,

jan

Jan, would you revisit this comment -- it seems unsupported by the details posted at Mainconcept's site, and I'd like to be sure that this is what you intended to say:

"<<<-- Originally posted by Uri Blumenthal : For DVCPro50 there's codec by MainConcept, $349 or so... -->>>

This is not a DVCPRO50 codec. It basic recodes DVCPRO50 to 4:1:1. Do not be mislead here.

Best,

Jan"

Cheers,
GB