Hi,

A number of people have mentioned this new camera being capable of 60p

Specifically Laurence Maher states, QUOTE "It mentions uncompressed out at 720/60p, but the guys here (and most of them are smarter than me) pretty much insist that if it can do 60p, it will do all the standard progressive frame rates, including 24p."

Is 60p sixty progressive frames per second thus allowing real slow motion or is it another way of saying 60i?

I hope it doesn't sound dense but it's been bugging me.

Thanks for humouring me.

sincerely,

ian

60p is most definately 60 progressive frames per second, allowing smooth slomo for 30p and 24p projects.

I too have read that the JVC does uncompressed 60p, here on this board, on the HDV@work article, and also on the wesa website, before the information was pulled. From what I can tell, this should be fairly accurate information. Now whether or not it will do other frame rates... dunno. One would assume that it would, but we all know what they say about assumptions...

The JVC info is saying that it'll shoot 60p uncompressed, but not record it at all (uncompressed or compressed).

60p uncompressed on the component outputs is fine and dandy for studio work where you may have the computers, RAIDs, and infrastructure to handle a data rate of 166 megabytes per second... but who has that? What kind of RAID would it take to even be able to capture that data stream?

For live switching or direct to broadcast maybe it'd be appropriate, but being able to actually record 60p is what you'd most likely want (to tape, to P2, to whatever). The JVC apparently has no provision to do so. Hopefully the Panasonic will.

Yes, the JVC would need a computer of some kind on set to capture the signal. I'm thinking a laptop with some large storage and external drives. JVC camera comes with an HD-SDI converter. So a card would be necessary too. Is all the extra crap worth it? Well, if your planning to project your movie to a big screen, it just might be. Hopefully one could figure out a fairly inexpensive storage solution.

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher : Yes, the JVC would need a computer of some kind on set to capture the signal. I'm thinking a laptop with some large storage and external drives. JVC camera comes with an HD-SDI converter. So a card would be necessary too. Is all the extra crap worth it? Well, if your planning to project your movie to a big screen, it just might be. Hopefully one could figure out a fairly inexpensive storage solution. -->>>

Laurence, Sorry I didn't get back to your question the other day, but the fact that the JVC has an uncompressed output is no different than the FX1 having an uncompressed output. You could take the signal from either and run it into an HD/SDI conversion device, could be somewhere n the +$2000 range and then the video will start to eat up your hard drives to the tune of 994Mbs a second. That is what an HD signal looks like in uncompressed with no prefilter.

Then you just have to ask yourself is the performance of the camera up to the task. Can you get more than 4 stops of latitude with it? What is the low light performance and does your shooting style allow you to take the computer with you? Can you utilize the camera as it is standing, in HDV? Which edit systems support this 720P/24?


The JVC camera does not come with the HD/SDI converter, it has a analog HD signal which can be converted.

Hope that helps,

Jan

PS. And I don't believe for a second that this camera will be any better than the P2 HD camera, and certainly will not be a feature rich or as flexible.

Add to it famous Panasonic reliability.

Can we just have an option for 1080 24p and get it over with instead of having to make all these Sophie's Choices?

I'm with Betsy. 1080/24p would just end all the discussion, wouldn't it? :)

(of course, there's only one 1080/24p camera in the world right now available for general sale, and it costs $100,000 just for the body...)

But yeah, I think it'd be hard for anyone to argue with 1080/24p!

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : I'm with Betsy. 1080/24p would just end all the discussion, wouldn't it? :)

(of course, there's only one 1080/24p camera in the world right now available for general sale, and it costs $100,000 just for the body...)

But yeah, I think it'd be hard for anyone to argue with 1080/24p! -->>>

Wouldn't it be possible to do it as 1080Ps24 in the 1080i stream, as Sony was (wrongly) rumored to be doing with the Z1? Because the P2 is solid-state, theoretically it could support both 720p and 1080i (and indeed the DVCPro HD format does). One of the Panasonic MPEG-2 mock-ups had an accompanying card with tentative specs (http://www.pbase.com/pappasartshd/image/35515106) clearly stating support for 720p30, 1080i60, and 1080p30! This means that the CCDs support 1080p scanning. Although 1080p24 (or any 24p) is conspicuously absent from the listed specs, I would assume that it could be inserted, as I said, into the 1080i60 stream and recovered with a 2:3:3:2 pulldown. But it would probably be recorded at the full 100-Mbps datarate, rendering 1080p24 impractical until higher-capacity P2 cards are available.

That's old picture, plus it doesn't list 24p anyway.

It lists 1080 25p and 50 Mbps. 25p or 24p, same difference.

The <10,000 USD camera supposed to be different one.

Panasonic does not give details. They may shock everyone with 1080 24 or 25p.

<<<-- Originally posted by Gary McClurg : That's old picture, plus it doesn't list 24p anyway. -->>>

I know it doesn't list 24p, and I said so. However, as long ago as NAB 2004, Joseph Facchini, director of Product Marketing for Panasonic Broadcast, said the P2 camcorder would support 24p. My point about the mock-up specs was that Panasonic considered it feasible to support 1080i60, 1080p30, 720p30, and 720p60 all on one prosumer camcorder. I then extrapolated that Pansonic could do 24p within the 1080i stream in a fashion similar to how it did it in SD with the DVX100.

http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031

This one is for you Betsy. ;-)

Awesome. The 1080p24 thing just went from US$100k to less than US$10k.

Jan this isn't the April 4th stuff you mention?

Jan, I am glad you guys stayed with the DVX100 look. From the image atleast that's what it kinda looks like. Ofcourse i never got under silk sheets with my DVX100 before so i don't know that for sure. Hmmmm!

As I said before the DVX100 was my favorite of the 24p cams and gave me the best image in it's class.

Glad to see that it has 1080I. I have a firend that does a show for the outdoor channel and needed 1080I, he had concerns that you guys might not have the 60I look. Now I can call him and let him know....

Michael Papppas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS


<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031

This one is for you Betsy. ;-) -->>>

Thanks, Jan, I'll sing at your renewal vows!

<<<-- Originally posted by Michael Pappas : Jan this isn't the April 4th stuff you mention?
Michael Papppas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS

Yes it is, I was surprised that it hit early.

Now I can at least have a few more bullet points. ;-)

<< Yes it is, I was suprised that it hit early. >>

Funny how that tends to happen in this business! For example JVC misfired with their ProHD press release when WEVA published it too early, and then retracted it. And last July the Canon XL2 announcement went out six hours ahead of time by accident. I don't know how you marketing folks endure in the face of those circumstances.

Jan,

Those extra bits are more like Howitzer weapon points to the competition that you now have Jan.

I would hate to be the competition today. Hmmm, I wonder how the competition will promote at NAB knowing that their cameras are not so on top of the hill. More like half way down compared to what the HVX200 has.

Again good work Panasonic.

Michael Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/ARRFILMS



<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston :
Yes it is, I was surprised that it hit early.

Now I can at least have a few more bullet points. ;-) -->>>

Wow. Just wow. 1080p24. :)

Did you just get married Jan? If, so congratulations!

I would hate to be the competition today.

Actually - I'd love to be the competition today. As great as this HVX200 sounds, it's way out of my price range (I'm an FX1 owner), and it occurs to me, that there's a gap waiting to filled... Namely, there's a nice little hole in the $2k - $4k gap for a progressive HD camcorder without so many bells and whistles.

(go Canon?)

Yes, price is the thing we need to see now - for those thinking of HD and whether we can get this beastie within the range of the other HD (Sony HDV <shudder>) cams - Thanks Jan.

Oh, and yeah, did you just get married? :)


Aaron

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven White : I would hate to be the competition today.

Actually - I'd love to be the competition today. As great as this HVX200 sounds, it's way out of my price range (I'm an FX1 owner), and it occurs to me, that there's a gap waiting to filled... Namely, there's a nice little hole in the $2k - $4k gap for a progressive HD camcorder without so many bells and whistles.

(go Canon?) -->>>

We don't actually know the price of the HVX200 yet. I would speculate on the GL3 fitting that price range and being HDV, but that is for Area 51...

Hmmm... Unveiled in April... debut in... June? October? December?

So what about us from Euroland - no 25p? Can we expect an upcoming AG-HDV200E? hmmm......

<<<-- Originally posted by Jan Crittenden Livingston : http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031
-->>>

Ok, I can anwser my own questions : - )

Quote from DVXUSER:

Yes Robert, there will be a PAL version for Europe/Au/NZ.

1080/50i, 108025p, 720/50p, 720/25p, 576/50i, 576/25p. All DVCPRO codecs and DV. This is all I know so far. I can't wait to get to NAB.
__________________
Gabriel Costache
Professional and Broadcast Systems
Panasonic New Zealand

What?! There is an official rep from New Zealand on DVXUser, or was it just a personal email reply? Problem with the NZ version is that I guaranee it will be $US * Exchange rate conversion * 2... :) We always get a bum deal here.


Aaron

Yep there's a NZ product manager who drops by now and then :). Ain't it great?

Yes it is! I'll have to visit more often. Are you from NZ Aaron?

Aaron

Nice name btw. I like it ;).

No, I'm not from NZ. Wish I were! It's an amazing place! I just know I've seen the guy around off and on over there. Goes by the name of PanasonicNZ.

Yes, DVXUser gets frequented by representatives from at least three Panasonic territories: Canada, US, and NZ.

OK, I checked out the forum, and thought, hmm that name is familiar. Turns out he is the husband of a woman I work with :) She rang him from work and the answer was "No more til NAB" ;)

Aaron

WAIT WAIT WAIT!!!!!!

HOLD THE BOAT!!!!!!

I just want to make sure I'm regestering this info correctly. Someone put up this link . . .

http://www.whatsnewatnab.com/search/code.php?code=031

It stated (to the word) the following . . .


"Panasonic
AG-HVX200 DVCPRO HD P2 Camcorder

Unveiling at NAB 2005, the AG-HVX200 is the professional video industry's most anticipated technology breakthrough. This revolutionary, hand-held P2 camcorder provides 1080i and 720p recording with the production proven image quality of 100 Mbps DVCPRO HD. The AG-HVX200 records on a P2 card in 1080 in 60i, 30p and 24p; in720 in 60p, 30p and 24p; in 480 in 60i, 30p, and 24p either in DVCPRO50 and DVCPRO."


The link was using panasonic logo, so I assume it was an official Panasonic release. Am I assuming correctly that there are 2 different cameras (the hdx-100 and the hdx-200) The hdx-200 not only does 720 lines in 60p and 24p, BUT . . . the hdx-200 does all this as well as 1080 lines 60p and 24p? Am I interpreting this correctly? And it's all inside the DVCProHD codec with FCP already works wih like a charm?

Oh my god Jan . . . Please tell me it's true, please tell me it's true and at what price. If the hdx-200 specs I listed are correct, and it also comes in under $10,000, you have just destroyed your competition wilh a NUCLEAR BOMB. I WILL BUY ONE IMMEDIATELY.

Please comment on this Jan if you can.

Thanks,

Laurence

I'm pretty sure there's only the one camera, the HVX200 that does

1080i60
1080p30
1080p24
720p60
720p30
720p24

and a host of SD resolutions and frame rates.

The HDX100 was sort of an unofficial moniker until the information you quoted was released... at least that's been my understanding. And the link to the information was originally posted by Jan... so I'm pretty sure it's not some God-awful April Fool's day joke (that and it was released yesterday...)

<<<-- Originally posted by Laurence Maher :

Oh my god Jan . . . Please tell me it's true, please tell me it's true and at what price.
Please comment on this Jan if you can.
-->>>
Hi Laurence,

It is true and it will be under $10,000. ;-)

Best regards,

Jan

Jan

I don't know if this in your scope of "able to talk about", but I saw this question raised on another forum, and I thought it was worth a shot.

Will the "little camera" (that now has a name) have essentially variable compression ratios for different frame rates, for instance: 720 60p would have a higher compression than 720 24p keeping the stream at 100 mbps? Or will their be the same compression across the range of resolution/frame rates, with the 720 24p essentially haveing a "true" bandwidth of something like 40mbps?

Barry

(by the way thank you for you gracious and informative comments on these boards..you put up with a lot of hooey sometimes)

Hi Barry,

DVCPRO has the same amount of compression per frame. Each frame stands on it own. The resolution is the same on a frame per frame basis. Unlike MPEG2.

Doe sthat answer the question?

Best,

jan

Jan

I'm not sure. Let me phrase it the way it was put over at dvxuser...When shooting in 720 24p...are we really shooting 60p, and then the camera pulls some magic and tosses away some frames to make it 24p. Thus, while the actual data stream is 100mbs, only about 40 percent of that goes to make up the frames of the 24p output. (or 50% for 30p output). Is that how it works ?(obviously a simplification of how it really works).

Barry

Also will could she say if it always wrote at a 100mps or what ever the speed is.

I thought I read that she or somone said it always writes at a 100 no matter what. Some thought it'd write at 40mps since it would have to record the information that isn't used in the pull down.

But maybe they'll be some things revealed on April 4th unless we already saw the ad.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Goyette : Jan

I'm not sure. Let me phrase it the way it was put over at dvxuser...When shooting in 720 24p...are we really shooting 60p, and then the camera pulls some magic and tosses away some frames to make it 24p. Thus, while the actual data stream is 100mbs, only about 40 percent of that goes to make up the frames of the 24p output. (or 50% for 30p output). Is that how it works ?(obviously a simplification of how it really works).
-->>>

While I cannot disscuss how this camera works, I can discuss the concept of the data remaining in the DVCPRO HD signal once the extra frames have been removed. DVCPRO HD has 100Mbps at 60 frames of information. The compression on each frame is equal and the same, d optimized for the compromise of intraframe compression. If we look at the fact that there is 60 frames per second and there is 100Mbps, we have a formula. If we only use 24 of those frames, then we are using a little over 1/3 of the data or about 40Mbps. When working with FCP over firewire, you can reduce the data load from 100Mbps to 40Mbps just by casting off the exta frames.

Interestingly enough when working in DVCPRO50 and you remove the pulldown of 2:3:3:2 you are roughly at 40Mbps as well. Do these two look anything alike? No. The size of the image is much larger on the DVCPRO HD.

Does that help?

Best,

Jan

crystal clear...thank you for the explanation.

Barry

So what about the "PAL version" of DVCPRO HD? Will it still be 100mbs at 60fps or 100mbs at 50?

I guess it's about 83mbs, right?

It looks like Firestore support for this camera is very promising:

http://www.digitalvideoediting.com/articles/viewarticle.jsp?id=31579

Linkified. Thanks, Brad. I need to add that press release to our own Articles section.

Interesting. Not having ever used P2, I would have assumed files would be stored in some more generic edit ready format. Do p2 files have to go through a conversion process after acquisition? That was one of my issues with HDV, that it wasn't immediately edit-ready (So I thought). I would have assumed random access media like the p2 would be even more edit ready. I don't want to have to do some conversion before I can edit. Guess it's up to the NLE's to support native MXF?

Or am I missing something here with the Firestore DV converter stuff? I hate waffly press releases that tell you almost nothing.

Aaron

The files are edit-ready with Avid editing systems, as they accept the mxf format natively.

The conversion suite referenced is a solid product ... that has been around unchanged for years.

The conversion process doesn't recompress or apply a codec, it just changes the file structure to meet the standards required.

GB

i'm as excited as you are 'bout this little beast..still my guess is it'll be max 7k..more like 5k

why?
looking at its body, it's clearly a consumer/prosumer cam even if it gives you superior quality. indy filmmakers make a small percentage of the sales of such cameras..usually it's the high-salery-geeks (lawyers, doctors, whatever) who just want's the latest and best equipment to film his daughter at the beach..he doesn't even understand 24p, 1080, datarate, compression, but if the salesman tells him it's the best he get's in the prosumer area, he'll buy it...still he probably wouldn't buy it at 10k thinking that's a stuff for the pros, not him

i also think small tv stations gonna favor the jvc cam, even if it'll have a lower quality..cheap tape..exch. lens..even me i'm kinda undecided

I like the idea of trying DVCPro, but I've always longed for the Canon Xl series wank factor. Now JVC have it, it's interesting, and they have more than the Canon, but of course the price will reflect this.

Aaron

It's neither of these Carmen.

If it were a consumer camera first and then adapted, then yes.

This is not the case.

It was designed and built by the professional/broadcast division of Panasonic. DVCHD Pro is not a consumer HD standard any more then HDcam used in CineAlta is. CineAlta and DVCpro HD are competing HD codecs. The Panasonic is a low end professional/industrial level gear.


Michael Pappas
http://www.Pbase.com/Arrfilms


<<<-- Originally posted by Carmen Stern :it's clearly a consumer/prosumer cam even if it gives you superior quality -->>>