Fist things first...
I'm a real newbie, I have nothing.
No camera, no software just nothing.
But, I am planning to buy a camera (I think the xl2) and everything else I need like a trypod and software etc.

My question is, what software to buy?
I'm thinking about buying Sony Vegas + DVD bundle or Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6 or Matrox RT.X100 or maybe Avid Express Pro.

What I (think) I need is good color correction, good 5.1 sound positioning and able to burn to dvd.

I think the matrox and liquid edition are nice at realtime 3d effects etc. but does anyone need them? I can't imagine using these effects if someone tries to make professional films.
Avid should be the best software (academy awards), but it looks like Vegas would be the best option.

I still don't know what I'm gonna film, but I think it will be documentaries (wildlife), maybe weddings/ music video's/ real movies :D

Can anyone give advice?
I can't find any good reviews about the things I think I need in the software.

Thanks!

Avid.. but its expensive and requires authorised HW for any kind of support (here in Aus anyway)
Liquid is ok.. but wierd in its setup, does the job, background rendering is ok, but you can do this in Vegas manually (ie open anotehr instance of vegas, open teh same project and render out regions of your work, while you continue to edit on the other instance of Vegas5. i do this quite often... I also find the filters are far more powerful in Vegas compared to anything else..

Edius Pro 3 is a good system too.. very simple to get into.. reminds me of a cross between Vegas and PremPro... offers a different kind of filter range.(region filter, colour changes (also in PremPro) soft focus... very VERY fast for sw.. much faster than Vegas easily.. but nowhere near as precise a workflow as Vegas..

Premo Pro.. rtx100.. meh.. i was gona do this for the realtime then i got over it.. i dont need to preview al my work in "realtime" when i cant even run a looped video and tweak as i go along (like i can in Edius and Vegas) I dont consider that realtime.. realtime to me is literally running a clip in realtime and making adjsutments as i go along.. THATS realtime.. and on top of that.. the RTX/PremPro STILL need to create pre render clips to give u that "realtime" output basically wasting more HDD space (ive got 2TB but if ur starting out u wont need that much) as well as the fact that youre rendering.. so realtime... well its a questionable marketing ploy and your opinion of realtime.....

Another thing is that despite its power.. as Prem Pro IS a really REALLY powerfule editor.. i hate the way PremPro has a zillion friggin windows.. i jsut dont like it.. it really does break my creative flow.. obviously people will disagree with me.. but i really dont like its "flow" What i can do Vegas and Avid in half a day would normally take me 3 days using Prem Pro and all its submenus and navigating through windows etc etc
Yes its good.. but only if u can handle the copious amounts of farting around to get a task done..
I use prem pro regualarly.. but for personal stuff.. i jsut use Vegas.. for broadcast, i use avid..
Most of my clients use PremPro.. so i have no choice with that one..

Thanks for the advice Peter!

But why is avid such a good program?
Form what I can see at their website, it's not much different from Vegas, but a lot more expensive.
Vegas has no hardware option for rendering etc. like avid...is it worth the extra money?
I have not seen anything from Edius Pro 3, I will look into that.

I've looked at Edius Pro 3....I can't find anything about sound.
It looks like there is no 5.1 sound support.

How do all programs work with an external TV for preview?

Hi Johan
If you want to try Avid for yourself look for a download called Avid Free DV. It costs nothing and will give you an idea of what Avid looks like and how it operates. It's a pre curser for Avid Express. All you need is a P4 computer. It gives you 2 video tracks, 2 audio tracks and I think 15 different effects.
Good luck

I'm an avid user, and love it. However, you mentioned 5.1 sound, which is not currently supported within the Avid interface. So if that's a deal breaker, you should look at Vegas or PremPro(?).

for 5.1, i would go with Vegas.. hell i DID go with vegas.. i used to use Hardware Dolby Encoders after jobs were passed through a ProTools LE system..
I ditched Pro Tools as it really didnt offer me anything that Vegas and Soundforge didnt.. mind u this was over 3 years ago when the is used to be the Sonic Foundry SoftEncoder (ie standalone Dolby encoder)...
You can get Dolby and DTS out of Pro Tools (avids audio sister) but its through th elinked use of nuendo and virtual channels and then u can jsut pop those files into Nuendo to process...
Bit of a hassle..

But for a streamlined and well budgeted surround editor, Vegas is far FAR more superior than PremPro and Liquid 6, which both offer 5.1 mixing... but not as refined as Vegas..

forgot to mention, Edius DOES NOT do surround..

Thanks all....

Phil / Richard:
I'm going to download the free version and see if I like it...but no 5.1 :(
I want to be able to use one program now, and use it for a while.
If I allready know the sound will be a problem....why try it?

Peter:
If I buy Vegas+DVD Production Suite, it comes with Sony Pictures Digital AC-3 Encoding software.
Is this 'real' Dolby Digital?
What would a DTS encoder cost?

As for the workflow, can I use two computer monitors and a TV for preview?

One little thing...can vegas import photoshop files?

If you really want 5.1 surround sound then Vegas is probably the way to go, but that may involve some compromises in other areas. I've tried Pinnacle Liquid Edition and was not impressed: they make a big deal about their "background rendering," but I found that to be more of a nuisance than a benefit. Plus it's got a quirky interface and possibly the most useless help files of any computer program I've ever seen, although that may have been improved in the latest version.

I currently use Edius because it works well both with and without hardware acceleration, and can do true "real time" editing in the sense that most changes don't require any rendering to view full-quality results. But it is true that Edius currently lacks support for 5.1 audio and a few other advanced features, so it's a real mixed bag of pluses and minuses.

Adobe Premiere Pro appears to be the most widely used and supported editing application for the PC platform, so you can be sure of having a full range of accessory plug-ins and lots of training material. I haven't used it much but may give it a whirl soon, as their partnership with Cineform offers what is arguably the best solution for editing HDV source material.

Avid just seems overpriced to me, end of story. About the only reason to go that route would be if you want to apply for a professional editing job, where there's a good chance they'll expect you to know something about Avid.

In the end the best way to decide is to download everyone's demo programs and spend a while with each trying to do some basic editing. You'll figure out pretty quickly which programs suit your personal style and editing needs, and that's something none of us can tell you for sure.

If I understand you right Kevin.

Don't use liquid edition:
- Background rendering wont be used, weird interface.

Don't use edius:
- No 5.1 what so ever.

Don't use avid:
- Too expensive.
- I dont want to apply for a professional editing job.

So it will be Premiere Pro or Vegas.
- I cant imagine me useing plugins...maybe color correction...are there other useable plugins?
- Training material...don't know if I need it, will know when I get working with the software.
- Both are able to do 5.1 (vegas better).
- No HDV for me if I buy the XL2 (Sony has CineForm Connect HD for vegas too)

I think it is going to be Sony Vegas + DVD bundle....now I only need a camera :D

Yeah, I think Premiere Pro and Vegas would be my two top picks for your situation based on features, even though I haven't really used either of them. You might give Liquid Edition a try just to see if it suits you better than it did me; some people seem to really like it. Edius is good if you want to get basic to intermediate projects done quickly, but until they get the audio support you want I guess that's off your list.

Premiere Pro is pretty much *the* application that people develop plugins for on the PC platform, and then if they have time they work on modifying those plugins for other editing solutions. After Effects is Adobe's ultimate tool which reportedly integrates nicely with Premiere, in case you need something like that.

Connect HD for Vegas won't give you the real-time HDV editing capabilities which Aspect HD delivers in Premiere Pro, but then that doesn't really matter if you're not shooting HDV.

I wouldn't personally buy an XL2 today after seeing what the Sony FX1 can do, but that's a whole separate topic. You might want to see if you can get your hands on an FX1 for a day before you make that decision...

If you could make 6 seperate audio tracks, you can make your own 5.1 with any program. Export each track as a mono WAV and bring each into Soft Encode or BeSweet and encode to 5.1 WAV or AC3.

Personally I live by Premiere for editing so I'm too biased to respond about editing. I wouldn't want to talk you out of something you're already interested in.

My impression is that he wants a program that NATIVELY supports 5.1 sound. Which limits his choices somewhat. When I was shopping for an NLE, I was looking for one that had native support for cutting and matchback to film. Avid was the logical choice. I was also looking to master the 'industry standard interface' (a term used by the marketers of Vegas) and that was Avid as well.

This is why it helps in these discussions, for people to make up their laundry lists of needs by priority.Cost,interface,features, support, etc. Because all of the programs are designed to edit video, they come from different paradigms, and have enherrent strengths and weaknesses.

About the 5.1 thing.
From what I can see is that Vegas can use a mono wav and let it 'fly' from, lets say, front left to back right.
I cant think of an other video editing program that can do this as good as vegas.
I want to be able to shoot an flying bird that flies into/over the camera. What other way is there to sync it with 5.1 audio?

For me, I can do much better color correction in Vegas than Premiere Pro.

Tools/filters available:
Vegas I've found has a strong set of color correction tools. Gripes about Vegas would be:
Secondary color corrector doesn't have smoothing option. You can hack Vegas to smooth the secondary color corrector out, but it takes a lot of button pushing. Maybe I should make a script for it.
Layering tracks with alpha/opacity and masks takes a lot of rendering. (Not as much as Magic Bullet though...)
No motion tracking.
No HSL curves.

Premiere Pro does not have a secondary color corrector. You'd have to get color finesse for that (about $600USD). I've never used it though.

Workflow:
Vegas is very neat as effects can be put on video output, tracks, individual clips, or on the original media. This can save a lot of time as you do not have to apply the same filter/effect and settings to everything.

Vegas also has a clipboard for still store, and effects bypass.

Vegas is also very quick at duplicating/superimposing video onto itself.

The masking tool in Vegas rocks (not a lot of button pushing).

Premiere Pro as far as I know doesn't have time saving tricks like this. However, you can get Automatic Duck for it so you can color correct in Combustion or After Effects (if you have lots of money, that might be useful).

Speed:
Premiere Pro might be the same speed or slower? I haven't used it much so I can't say.

You can see some of the color correction I've done in Vegas at http://www.glennchan.info/Proofs/proofs1.htm

Glenn....I really like the color corrections!
The two I liked most are the guy (no fat chicks) and the girl.
These are very good examples of making a movie look great!

I've seen a review about Magic Bullet Suite that works with Vegas. From what I could see was that the collor correction was also great. Dreamy look, Matrix look...this could work for me!

Both Vegas and Premiere Pro have Magic Bullet versions for them I believe.

Magic Bullet is a very easy tool to use for primary color correction (corrections that affect the whole image). It is great for stylized looks (i.e. Matrix, bleach bypass, etc.). That webpage was for a mockumentary drama-type pilot, so I didn't go for a stylized look.

However it does not do any secondary color correction or masking, and it takes a **long** time to render. You can also get very comparable results in Vegas, although it may take a little more button pushing in certain cases.

If the case of your favorite images:
The over-the-shoulder shot of the girl used a mask on the girl and the wall behind her. You can think of it as a cutoff.

That selectrion then was brightened... so the girl's face gets bright, as well as the wall behind her. It looks like there is a lighting source in the background out of the frame. Because I didn't include the right side of the frame, it's darker there and acts as a frame or acts as like a vignette effect.

Magic Bullet wouldn't really be the appropriate tool for that shot.

The same thing goes for the no fat chicks-tshirt guy shot... the director is going for a 'documentary' look.


Anyways... it seems like I'm digressing here. I'm not really sure what the point of this message was anyways.

I was just looking at Adobe Premiere Pro 1.5 that has 5.1 surround sound and colour correction.

"What would a DTS encoder cost?"

hehehehe
i was looking at gettin licensed for DTS (I do alot of film and distribution, so Dolby Digital has been a apart fo my studio for a number of years... ) but i wanted to expand so DTS was the next choice..
Funy though.. that it would cost me $2000 AUD for the DTS encoder alone.. Vegas set me back 1200 for the whole Vegas5+DVD... which included the certified Dolby encoder as standard....
Another option was a Nuendo rig, soooo i thought $2000 would be better spent elsewhere..

When it comes down to it, each application does things differently as well as doing different things.. i jsut LOVE the region filters in Edius.. i also like the soft focus, coupled with an oversaturated colour curve from vegas and you get a stunnign shining glossy airbrushed look.. u can literally ditch ur Matrox RTx100 or Storm 2 now..
then I like the way premiere does its colour change.. and auto correct.. pity its rendering is so slow.. and Vegas and Avid (if Avid was 40k, id still think it was a good editor.. )well ive rambled enough about that..

My point is that i have made the investment to buy, learn and use each and every application for its strong points.. whats strong in one system may be weak in another.. and having access to all of them is prolly the smartest thing i have done within my business.. i can literally do ANYTHING with video with minimal fuss without the contrived attitude of "which one is better"..
Theyre all good in different ways.. how u use them.. well.. thats another story ;)

and I agree with the comment on the FX/Z1.

<<<... u can literally ditch ur Matrox RTx100 or Storm 2 now...>>>

Although these products are less important now than they were in the past, I still use my DVStorm when I want maximum real-time performance or fast MPEG2 output. So like you said, it's all about using every available tool when it's beneficial to do so, and not worrying about being limited to any particular solution.

Well...too bad I dont have enough money for buying all the packages!

Peter:
I found a Licensed DTS encoder for $499 USD.
I emailed sony if I am able to use the dts stream in dvd architect 2.
You agreed with the comment on the FX/Z1??
To buy or not to buy...that's the question :D

I emailed sony if I am able to use the dts stream in dvd architect 2.


I believe that answer will be NO.

For a comparison put together by Pinnacle, see Comparison of Pinnacle Liquid Edition 6 with the other leading NLEs (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/docloader_n.asp?templ=10&doclink=/WebVideo/liquideditionversion6/English(US)/doc/LE6_chart.html&Product_ID=2452&Langue_ID=7&loc=chart&division_id=)

For a more detailed comparison, see the link to a PDF file on Detailed Software Comparison (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/WebVideo/liquideditionversion6/English(US)/doc/Detailed_Software_Comparison.pdf) at the bottom of the page.

There are not many LE6 users on this forum, so you will not see a lot of people recommending it. But LE6 is an outstanding NLE with features and performance not found in many other NLEs. LE6 was just released last fall, so most people have not seen it or used it yet. And yes, it has a few bugs in it (as all SW does). But a LE6 service pack is supposed to be released very soon (Feb/Mar) that will address these bugs.

Someone mentioned that background rendering is not important. This couldn't be further from the truth. In order to view the video from your NLE timeline on a NTSC monitor, it will need to be rendered. LE6 uses both your CPU and your GPU to quickly render while you are working on other things. It does NOT in any way interfere with your work. You will find that you often will want to view the video from your timeline during the course of editing.

Choosing a NLE is a tough job. Take your time, review all the info at the manufacturer's web sites, get as many opinions as reasonable (but remember they are JUST opinions and may contain factual errors), and where possible, download and try out the demo versions of each NLE you are really interested in.

Even though trying out each NLE is a good idea, keep in mind that it takes considerable time to learn how to use each NLE, and they are all different. Some people find some NLEs to be difficult or confusing at first. But then, after they learn the pecularities of that NLE, find it to be very powerful.

Finally, be aware that you can obtain substantial discounts on student/academic versions. For example, LE6 usually sells for $500, but the academic ver is only $170.

Good luck with your search.

Someone mentioned that background rendering is not important. This couldn't be further from the truth. In order to view the video from your NLE timeline on a NTSC monitor, it will need to be rendered.

Vegas previews to an external monitor via firewire without rendering (or background rendering).

Edward,

Technically you are correct. But from a practical point of view, any corrections or special effects that you apply to the captured video must be processed in some manner to display on an external monitor. This is, in essence, "rendering" the video for preview purposes. This "preview rendering" may not be as full or complete as the actual rendering done to output your final video to file.

LE6 has a similar capability.

Does Vegas preview all effects without rendering?
Does it output full quality video when previewing?

Best Regards,
Pete

I think realtime 'preview' is scalable in different NLE's by virtue of ram, cpu speed and frame rates or field choice.

LE6 provides 1,000's of 2D and 3D resolution independent SD and HD real-time effects powered by Liquid's SmartRT. This means it has real-time preview of these effects without actual rendering. LE6 is one of the only NLEs to make extensive use of your graphic board's GPU.

For more info see LE6 Features and Specifications (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/docloader_n.asp?templ=10&doclink=/WebVideo/liquideditionversion6/English(US)/doc/Liquid6_key_features_US.html&Product_ID=2452&Langue_ID=7&loc=spec&division_id=).

Does Vegas preview all effects without rendering?
Yes

Does it output full quality video when previewing?
It can. Depends on settings, CPU speed, effects used, etc...

If you choose Good (Full) or Best (Full) then you will have full quality video when previewing. However, this may come at a sacrifice of framerate.

If you leave it at the default Preview (Auto) then the quality will be slightly diminished but the framerate will be higher.

Naturally, you can always to a RAM Render on any particular section if you MUST see it in full-quality/full-framerate.

Pete....thanks for the input :)

You seem to know how LE6 works.
One little question, how does the 5.1 audio work?
Can it pan the audio with keyframes?
With the dvd making option, will it encode to Dolby Digital?
I want to try the program, but i have to let a cd send to me and this will take some days.

Johan,

My understanding is that LE6 provides capability to author Dolby Digital 5.1 and encode it on a DVD. I have not personally done this, so I can't really speak from personal experience. You may need to use an external program lik Nero to burn the DVD with Dolby Digital. For more info please see the following:
Detailed Review of LE6 by Peter Wells (DV Doctor) at Hexus.net (http://www.hexus.net/content/reviews/review.php?dXJsX3Jldmlld19JRD0xMDAwJnVybF9wYWdlPTc=)
Liquid Edition 6.0 Manual (http://www.pinnaclesys.com/docsupport1.asp?division_id=8&langue_id=7&product_id=2452&product_name=Liquid%20Edition%20version%206&page_id=282)

Also, you can post your questions on the Pinnacle Liquid Edition forums (http://webboard.pinnaclesys.com/read_forums.asp?WebboardID=14&SectionID=85&lng=1) and get excellent replys from both Pinnacle and expert LE6 users.

Pete

<<<Technically you are correct. But from a practical point of view, any corrections or special effects that you apply to the captured video must be processed in some manner to display on an external monitor. This is, in essence, "rendering" the video for preview purposes. This "preview rendering" may not be as full or complete as the actual rendering done to output your final video to file.>>>

For what it's worth, Canopus Edius offers extensive real-time DV editing capabilities with no rendering required on sufficiently powerful computers, and I believe the same can be said for Adobe Premiere Pro. Canopus even offers real-time HDV editing with real time HD monitoring using their NX or SP hardware cards, and Adobe is looking into offering similar HD monitoring support. Based on my own experiences with Liquid Edition and what I've read about Sony Vegas, neither of these products deserves to be described as a true real-time editing solution, although both have clever strategies for dealing with their lack of real-time output ability. And ultimately no editing solution can deliver full quality output under all circumstances for complex projects, so it's all relative in that sense. But for basic editing tasks, there's no comparison between real time "previews" and actual real time editing. If you have to render to view a simple color correction or basic PIP window at full quality on your external monitor, that's not real time editing.

Which program will let let me use reverse playback and color isoloation? i.e. a pleasantville effect of black white with one object in color?

Final Cut, Vegas, and Premiere Pro will do the Pleasantville effect. Final Cut is slightly better than Vegas at this, which is slightly better than Premiere Pro. In Final Cut you can get good chroma smoothing filters (i.e. the built-in 4:1:1 color smoother, or Nattress' excellent G Nicer) which you can think of as upsampling the color information. Vegas has chroma blur, and I don't think Premiere has anything like it (but I could be wrong... I don't use it). Final Cut's secondary color corrector (3-way CC) has a softness setting, which blurs the mask from the secondary qualifiers/controls. Vegas can be hacked to do the same thing, but it takes lots of button pushing. Not sure about Premiere.

Combustion (compositing/effects program) will also do it. I'm not sure about After Effects or Avid.

Reverse playback: Final Cut and Vegas and Combustion have velocity/time remapping.

The other programs will at least do reverse speed (set speed, can't change it).

Avid has "timewarp" effects and variable speed forward, fixed speed in reverse. You can use the speedramp plugin, and get variable speed in any direction.

The 'pleasantville' effect can be done, theres a tutorial on the web for it, though I've never done it.

Just a correction to an earlier statement that Premiere Pro/Matrox RT.X100 "need to create pre render clips to give u that "realtime" output." This isn't true. As long as the effect(s) used are within the limits of the RT.X100 system, it's pure real-time, no rendering required. For me, this is especially nice for color correction, which for a professionally done job really needs to be applied to every clip. For an hour long production this saves a lot of time. I can color correct every clip and instantly see the output in full quality on my TV monitor. The Matrox also has a real-time "Pleasantville effect" as well.

One feature I've come to appreciate very much in Premiere Pro is the multiple timelines available in one project. I can't say how much I'm using and enjoying this feature. For instance, in the current project I'm working on I have about eight or so hours worth of footage. I put the clips from each tape on their own timelines within the project. I have several other timelines for various aspects of the project as well.

Another very nice feature mentioned earlier is the integration with After Effects. I can edit a project and get the timings correct for each clip and the piece overall (much easier to do in an editor rather than After Effects) and then import the project, complete with slow motion effects, dissolves, etc., into After Effects. One can now copy clips from Premiere directly into AE while both apps are running.

Of course these features don't appeal to everyone. But that's what's nice about having so many choices - there is almost sure to be a NLE to suit every editor.

I'd like to clarify the term "real-time" as I used it in my earlier post. Many software editors now describe themselves as "real-time", i.e., they give a real-time preview quality display of your effects/filters. The advantages of a hardware/software combo like the Matrox RT.X100 and Canopus DVStorm2 are that they can give you what I describe as true real-time. The effects are displayed in real-time at full quality on your computer monitor and attached TV monitor, and there's no rendering going back out to DV tape. They can also output in real-time to MPEG-2. Of course there are limitations to the amount of effects that can be used in real-time.

The one exception to this that I know of is Ulead Media Studio Pro, which, with a powerful enough system can output back to tape without rendering effects.

<<<The one exception to this that I know of is Ulead Media Studio Pro, which, with a powerful enough system can output back to tape without rendering effects. >>>

Canopus Edius (versions 2.0 and later) can deliver decent real-time output without special hardware support, and even better results with the DVStorm or Edius NX/SP hardware. Even on my laptop I can have two layers of DV with PIP on one of them plus color correction and audio enhancements and still have it play back at full quality in real time (usually) to both the computer monitor and DV out. Compared to that, anything which requires me to render to get full-quality output just seems irritating, and shouldn't be described as "real time" editing.

The one thing I loved about Vegas... I had my first camera, I had the trial of V3 at the time.. within an hour I had footage that looked better than the original and I felt like I "knew" what I was doing in the software.

With Premiere, I'm reading a big book on how to use it before I even start! I want to use Premiere just because its become more of a standard, and it's probably better to know how to edit in Premiere than Vegas when applying for serious work. Its a shame, because I think Vegas has the perfect blend of easy usability and professional output. Now Sony have the rights to it, hopefully it'll become more of a "name".

Canopus Edius (versions 2.0 and later) can deliver decent real-time output without special hardware support

I hope that the other editing programs follow in the same direction. If these two programs (Edius, Media Studio Pro) can deliver true real-time without special hardware support, certainly the others could.

Compared to that, anything which requires me to render to get full-quality output just seems irritating, and shouldn't be described as "real time" editing.

I fully agree!