I bought a pack of 100CD's today and was happy to find not one, but two frosted CD sandwiching the pack. This was great because my test frosted CD is pretty scratch up right now. I took off the scratch one and tried the new one - warped. Ok, it happens. It was scratching against the casing for the CD motor something awful. No problem, the next one. Same thing! Yikes, this is getting to be a problem! I don't know if anyone else found the same thing. I have one more frosted CD to try from a spindle pack of DVD's. I hope this is the one!

CORRECT.

Some CD spacers are from source other than the CD-R production run. These are identifiable sometimes by small cutouts on the outer edge and molding marks on the surface. These are not optically true, not mechanically true and will give you a lot of grief.

Other clear CD spacers are a layer of a CD-R diverted from actual production which might have failed a quality test or simply diverted to make up a set number of spacers. Whatever, these are more likely to be optically true. They can sometimes be identified by a trace of the guide track being visible on one surface. These are good stock for making your own gg disks. You dress the surface which has the guide track on it. This surface is seasily found by rubbing across the guide track witha soft cloth. On the guide track side, the guide tracks partially polish off.

These clear disks are also found in some DVD+R packs. I found them in a Lazer brand pack.

CD-R spacers which are translucent white may not perform well, especially if they are of a molded origin. If the opacity is through the entire material of the disk and not confined to one surface, there is too much dispersion of the image through the disk and the result will be a soft indistinct image. If they dont run true, you get a moving focal plane which produces both soft focus and interlace artifacts.

some time ago i suggested to use (instead of frosted CD) frosted window foil, like somtime is used in offices so you cannot see thru, but light is wisible. kind of mate glass. yo can buy it in any store where you can find other adhesive fooils for "home". it looks very interesting. and can mimic frosted CD perfectly. you cannot find the difference (i'm talking about GOOD frosted CD)

will try to find a link to that pages.

filip

i just founded:

take a look!

http://www.moorefilms.com/filip.htm

with courtesy of taylor moore!
(he published my pics on his server)

filip

So does that work well (enough) Filip?

I've mentioned the GG I’ve made, a clear CD (just polished a CD until all silver coating came off) and put one layer of tracing paper on it with a glue spray. It looses a bit more light but the image is very sharp.
I wonder if the window foil (and also the frosted CD) gets a sharp image because the structure is a bit rough.

I'd prefer the foil because the tracing paper gets dirty after a while.

I got the brightest picture by graining the CD with very fine sand paper (waterproof , nr.800). But the pattern was too irregular across the CD, so the image was flickering.
Maybe we can find a way to do this better. I'm thinking about a sanding machine with a plane (custom made) bigger than the CD, so you just hold the disk in one place.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rob Lohman : So does that work well (enough) Filip? -->>>

for me - perfect. picture si sharp. no problems. structure is irregular and you cannot see any repetable lines in the picture. but - it's so cheap that you can test it for yourself. ind you can cut out as many cds as you want. no need to buy 100pcs to hav just ONE frosted CD.

filip

has anyone shot any footage with this setup. I'm curious to see the results, as my own attempts (even with a very rough sanded disk) look pretty good. this looks even better..

I am going to look into the clear foil stick-ons. They look really good. The frosted CD I use for testing isn't perfectly round. I can tell when the motor is starting up on the CD, it wobbles slightly, but after it hits full speed, I cannot tell. Still I would like to find one that is a perfect circle without warps - so that means I might have to go the ClearFoil route and polish down a CD.

Bob Hart : sir, it amazes me the extent of your knowledge on numberous subjects!

I have posted footage with a regular factory made Frosted CD, but I am endeavoring to make my own. I will post when I have done so.

i just found one of these actual run cds and i cant figure out white side the coating is on. its clear but there is something on it making it reflect the rainbow colors. i dont want to grind the wrong side off of it.

Hey I just finished grinding the same CD! It is a little thinner than the others - I am presently uploading the footage with the new GG that I did myself - using that Rainbow-reflecting CD.

Filip,
I went out tonight to look for the sticky frosted stuff 'KleeneFoil' to use and found that Home Depot had something like it -$60.00 worth for a large package - they don't sell strips or small amounts! And the size of the bumps were too large to use. I wonder if there is another place that would sell it by the foot or yard instead? Anyone had any luck finding this stuff?

Everyone at DVinfo

I have updated my site :

http://dvstuff.250free.com

There are two clips on it. These clips were made with my home-made GG CD. I found a 'spacer CD' that was more flexible and thinner - and when looked through cast a rainbow-like reflection. So I got out some wet-metal sandpaper and made the GG. This was easy to make, but getting it right was not possible by hand. I think if there was a uniform buffer, it would do alot better of a job.

In these tests you can clearly see the non-uniform scratches in the CD.

Bob Hart and others :

Also, this is really important to me - why is the light spilling like this? Has anyone else come across this? I am not using a MACRO filter just yet (until I get one) so this could be the cause.

Also, I noted that my image look great in the middle, but seems to flare out at the edges - like a radial blur or something - another problem I need to overcome.

What do you mean by light spilling?

The light in the second footage is just a regular overhead light. It is spilling out and looks like a gas blob or something!

tried to go to your site but I can't seem to access it. :(

Strange, I have checked it on two different computers here. You might have to cut and paste the url - and if you get - Cannot create a Direct Show player, just hit enter to get rid of that and continue onto the page.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mandy Leo : I wonder if there is another place that would sell it by the foot or yard instead? Anyone had any luck finding this stuff? -->>>

i bought mine in a shop with similar things - with different sticker foils for windows etc. small shop in the large kind of "shoping center" with all things needed for building a home or renewing a flat etc.
but i beleive that you can find it in chain similar to "leroy merlin" - at least in this part of europe is there. more in places like stuff for decoration of your furniture, interior, kitchens etc. if you REALLY cannot find it - send me your private addres by mail and i can send you say one meter of it 1mx45cm. no problem. i have it like 10m...

filip

Cheers Filip!

I am going to look around, but thanks for the offer, I still might take you up on it!

no problem - just send me an email.


filip

Ok, a new sideXside comparison is up at my site. I have taken three shots - one with a homemade GG, another a factory Frosted CD and one without anything. Big differences. The homemade GG has a nice grain to it, but massive light loss. the Frosted CD has more light, but I can see the spinning grain.

http://dvstuff.250free.com

I am going to go the WAX paper and Tracing Paper (ala Oscar Spier's design). Testing right now is at night with a single light (60W). There is no evidence of a hotspot, but I will have to wait until I get outside during the day to confirm.

Should I be doing this test with a colour chart of some kind?

http://dvstuff.250free.com

or

http://dvstuff.250free.com/comparisons.jpg

Newer light loss comparison up now. Using
1) Frosted GG/CD
2) Homemade GG/CD
3) Wax paper GG/CD
4) Tracing Paper GG/CD
5) nothing at all.

The comparison are quite remarkable and a good indicator of the way things need to go. This is using a single lamp (night time).

As always, comments welcome.

Mandy - great comparisons! I like the homemade GG and wax paper ones the best - wow - you've really proven something here - the effect is comparable to putting a different filter on the camera... Nice to know that different effects are possible...

I'm encouraged enough by your results with this mediachance method to actually give it a go myself - I will try later this week!

Hafta get my SLR lens off my sister and get a macro... then it's hi-ho, hi-ho - off to work we go!

Please, keep up the grrrrrreat work!

Thanks for the support Mark. I am getting there, but each step forward seems to bring a new set of challenges. Check out my latest tests :

http://dvstuff.250free.com

or

http://dvstuff.250free.com/comparisonsday.jpg

I keep coming back to the Frosted CD - which is ok, but going to continue to try and find another method.

Also, my focus on infinity is still bothering me. I really need two people to do this - one to adjust the screws and another to watch the LCD for sharpness. Also, shooting out the window leaves alot of contrast and makes it hard to see. I think Bob Hart said to shoot out a window from a dark room?

Any comments, always welcome that will steer me in a right direction.

Well, I think I am moving away from the frosted GG/CD.

In recent tests, I noticed that with the tracing paper, I get a much large viewing area for the DV camera, which is great!

BUT with the tracing paper, in low light, it is much darker and therefore more light loss - so there has to be a happy medium (which I think would be commercial GG like James is getting).

Also with the Frosted CD there are alot of spinning artifacts when shot in certain lights (brighter). Right now I am going to try Wax paper again with a CLEAR CD. My previous test was with a Green tinted CD - which I didn't realise was tinted until after I took all of the coating off.

New tests with the Macro 7+ up on my site. Light and colour testing using the Wax Paper, Frosted CD, Tracing Paper and my own Rolling Pin GG.

http://dvstuff.250free.com

I don't want to continue to use the Frosted GG, but each time it outperforms the others in test, so I might have no choice! Going to try Press and Seal like Mark suggested today -- but I am running out of clear CD's!!!

Comments welcome.

Ok, I'm on night shift at my job at the t.v. station so I've run out of time - but just testing the "setup" in my darkened kitchen with CD motor and 35mm lens, the imagery on the diffuse Press 'N Seal on clear CD seems to look grrrrreat!!!

Mandy, definitely give it a go!

I'm going to your site to see the latest now...

By the way, I plunked down big bucks on 72mm macro extender (I think it's about +2, +4 range) for my DVX - it's made by Canon and the quality is excellent... It also fits the HDV cam made by Sony: FX1/Z1... The latter has tremendous low-light capability so wow, if you're losing light through the SLR lens, it'll compensate...

I'm starting to suspect that my "project box" is going to be a bit longer given the optics of the bigger 3-CCD video cameras with 72mm lens...

I like the idea of first building with wood because I'm going to glue washers to the boards so I can have "thread" to finely adjust the distances between the elements. Once I get the distances down, it's just a matter of building a shell around it...

I'm building tomorrow. I've switched computers here at home and have to re-establish my ftp access to my web domain so I can start posting results like Mandy...

More this week!

Cheers!

Good job Mark. I am looking forward to seeing your stuff.

Right now I am at the point where fine tuning is coming into play. Still at the prototype stage, but ready to start working on the rail for the tripod. A pretty simple setup of a piece of wood for the bottom and an adjustable sled for the camera to enable it to move towards the dof machine and away. AFter that, I am looking into cylindrical housings for the GG and the motor. The project box won't work, so I am returning that for sure. The cylindrical housing will hopefully fix the problem with length from the DV to the GG with is a lot longer than I thought.

Got the Press and Seal tonight. It looks pretty good! I will post pics tomorrow of the test. Getting the focus to infinity is crucial, but it is only one step in the process - next is getting it to stay with all the vibrations of the motor and CD running!

Keep me posted.

Just an update as I've started assembling my adaptor...

I'll be setting up a website with details on my adventure probably this weekend - right now, I'll just mention I'm at the stage of having prepared the board with the CD motor and the 2nd board with the lens cap for the 35mm lens - I'm waiting for glue to dry and will resume tomorrow (Feb 24)...

Observations so far, helpful notes:

*for the "boards" I'm using "pegboard" from Home Depot - easy to cut even with a utility knife and has pre-drilled holes to allow for screws etc.

*stove bolts seem to do the trick...

*press 'n seal so far on clear CD for ground glass - will confirm how "good" this is tomorrow...

*tough to find a good "project box" - but Home Depot sells cheap flashing (flat sheetmetal for roofing) that I'll use to "plate" the casing I customize from some wood - maybe even said pegboard...

More tomorrow.

I can't wait to get this done... Will post footage asap.

Mark

As an alternative to project boxes you could try an electrician, electrical installer or parts wholesaler to find a suitable sized PVC junction box for house or factory mains wiring.

Funny that you actually mentioned that, because I was looking at one in the garbage the other day and it got me thinking - can I use that?! Awesome Bob - hitting an electrical supply store today to see what they have.

Mark

The Press and Seal stuff works really good - that was a good call on it!

Just a thought - to make the unit smaller, has anyone tried using those mini CD's? Since the area is only about 18/24, I wonder if the until would be miniturized, but still keep the same picture with a mini-cd? I haven't seen them around in a while, but I am sure they are out there!

Leo, for my first 35mm adapter, I cut the CD to a size just a bit bigger than a mini CD. It worked.
I've just bought the window foil mentioned somewhere and tomorrow I'll make a new GG. I'll post the results if they are any good. (Yesterday I started shooting indoors, but my current GG is too dirty and light absorbing)

Hooray - finished tonight. Not able to post yet - nothing thrilling yet - I have serious vignetting. The press 'n seal is great - tomorrow before I commit to some sort of box to seal the contraption, I will refine distances and test by "mummifying" the apparatus in aluminum foil...

The weak link for me is confidently fixing unit to end of camera - might "borrow" some of Jon's ideas at his site www.aqua-web.com - the best use of washers I've seen in a long time...

Important side note: I used "Goop" to secure my cut-out back lens cap to the pegboard and let it dry overnight - man, that stuff rocks and now my 35mm lens is on great... too bad I can't glue the setup to the camera... well, I could... but...

Wow... I'm amazed though how something I myself built can actually work so half-decent... Maybe I should take on building the extension on the house solo after all? My wife would love that! Yeah, right!

Ok, I will search for vignette hints...

Cheers!

Will refine tomorrow and try to post footage/pics this weekend...

Mark

Mark,

You need to focus in tighter to get rid of vignetting, if you camera starts to blur after getting in too tight, you need to move the camera back away from the GG (at least that is what I do).

I have footage - serious hotspot/vignetting, but nevertheless, I have footage!

I also have pics of my aluminum foil wrapped system - bwhahahaha - it looks like something from the Apollo project...

I'm still working on setting up the website - if I didn't have the hotspot/vignetting issue, I'd be 100% happy - the press 'n seal is good and getting the system to confidently stay attached to the camera (once I set up the block/rail system) is the big challenge.

Wow, right now, it looks just like Super 8 footage!

Very interesting looking!

Mark,

I am getting closer and closer to a final product myself. I am trying to find the Window Foil stuff and test all the different GG's that I have. I also want to find a condenser and a glass-smith to work on a CD type GG - which I can use instead of the CD. Keep up the work, Mark.

Remember, www.250free.com give a free website.

I've hunted around here for solutions and believe it's mostly the SLR lens I'm using - Canon EOS zoom 28-105mm f3.5...

Dan D. posted somewhere here (I believe) that prime lens with f1.something would give better results...

I added another layer of press 'n seal to make the CD surface more "diffuse" and that helped - although I have considerably darker image...

sounds like I'll need the condenser too.

My macro, a 72mm Canon close up extender called the 500D, doesn't give me enough magnification - I'll need the 72mm to 52mm step down ring and then something like the Hoya +2 or +4 or maybe more.

Still, I'm encouraged to be getting an image from something I myself built with minimal tooling and investment. Gosh, I'd love the p+s technik - I gather it's an excellent product but sheesh, the price is kinda silly for what it does?

Obviously, that is why there is so much discussion here I think in this forum on this topic - hey, I'm excited to see the various adaptors that will be offered for sale soon by the ones posting here... I'd happily plunk down a few hundred bucks, maybe even a grand or two if it worked really "well."

Okay, just some ramblings...

I'll look into the free website and give it a go tomorrow

OK, I've made the GG with window foil suggested by Filip Kovcin. Thanks very much Filip!
Here is an example(highly compressed):


http://s01.picshome.com/1db/033.jpg

It's is shot with just one 500W pointed at the ceiling and one 300W pointed at the actors. It could use a bit more light, of course, but I’ve gained about 50% more light over my previous GG.

Leo, try to look for this:

adhésif décoratif transpatente or:

adhesive foil transparent

It looks amazing - first double cam film footage!

The problem isn't the name of the product so much Oscar, it is finding it. I have tried Home Depot and a few other local home fix it places, nothing - I have tried places that just sell windows - nothing. I am in Canada and don't know where the heck to find this stuff!

I have found something like it at Canadian tire, but it has a grid pattern on it - obviously can' t be used.

Have you tried the Press and Seal stuff - I would like to do a side-by-side comparision to see how they match up. The Glad Press and Seal works well, in my opinion and much better than wax paper or the heavy tracing paper I have.

Here is a new comparison with the Press & Seal (ala Mark Kubat). This was taken at night, no lights - one with the DOF using the Press & Seal and one with just the DV camera, no DOF.

Still a little too dark, but maybe that is normal loss that most people get, not sure?

Going to go for the window foil next and then start on the real thing!

http://dvstuff.250free.com

If I stay with press and seal, I'll need a "faster" lens because yes, I have darkness issues...

one layer with my current lens = not diffuse enough, so hotspots. 2 layers is great, but much darker...

Well, it's a start.

Mandy, you're in Canada? Where? I'm in Toronto - close enough for us to hook up?

I'll be going to Henry's tomorrow to return my expensive macro extender and try to follow the pattern set here by others with 72mm diameter cameras: 72mm to 55mm step down and then Hoya type macro's...

Argh, I wish the guys building "pro" systems would just hurry up... *Big smile, big wink*

Mark,

It sounds like you are on your way. I think two press and seals is going to be way too much light loss. The GG, that I am using now, is one layer of Press and Seal and looks really good - but I still need the condenser lens to avoid hotspots (which aren't really that bad).

Yes, I am in Canada, but not very close to Toronto

Hi Mandy - long time no see!

Well, I've returned the in-effective macro adapter/extender that I got from Henry's - it was a Canon 72mm type 500D that just didn't allow me to get in close enough...

I see from the various posts that for someone like me with 72mm lens, 72-55mm stepdown with 55mm (or so) Hoya macro adaptors is the way to go...

No one in Toronto readily has 72-55 stepdown on hand - not even Vistek (our T.O. camera superstore)

That being said, I'd have to get a condenser too to reduce hotspots and from other posts here, seems like the type of SLR lens even comes into play...

So I'm putting the home-built version on hiatus because James Hurd really seems to be coming down to short-strokes with the micro 35 and I can wait a month or two. If summer rolls around and I still don't have something, I'll throw myself in head-first and go all out to make the best homebuilt system I can - I'm confident it can be achieved: the results so far are equal to like Super 8 footage... I see enough potential in the "filmic" look that this type of system derives that I want to follow it through to the end...

Mandy, I'll continue to be watching for your updates - you seem quite determined to have this system working to also realize your "vision."

Good luck!

Mark

Thanks Mark. I hope your idea works out as well, whether you wait for James or not.

I have recently come up with a new oscillating idea that works, quite by accident. It is very unlike the one that was posted recently (which was great, BTW). This one allows for a much smaller GG (that doesn't have to be round and moves in a nice like vibrational, small circles manner.
I am still working on my prototype, trying to get it done now with padding to stop the noice and building a rail for it. But as of right now, I am ready to shoot, even though I am continuing to hone it (I am still trying to get the transparent foil for it).

<<<-- Originally posted by Mandy Leo : ...The problem isn't the name of the product so much Oscar, it is finding it. ... -->>>

mandy - if you still need this foil, just send me your private address on my mail, and will send you 2meters of it for free. i have the whole roll (10meters), so since i do not produce frosted CDs, for mases - i do not need such a big amount of it.

filip

Updated my site with a new video - I finished building a mock set of rails today so it works on the tripod.

Getting a little colour separation on certain shots Long shots, working on figuring that out. Sturdiness is also a problem rack focusing, which is also something that I need to address - some vibrations when holding the focus ring. If anyone has a quick fix, let me know.

http://dvstuff.250free.com

Now, I am starting to write a short so I can shoot it!

Really good for home-made stuff - wow, that is great! Hotspot issue isn't bad at all - if you light well, your film will be ultra cool...

Can't wait to hear more/see more about it!

Congrats!

Mark

The press & seal is now showing its faults. In the compressed footage a little hard to see, but the uncompressed it really shows. Going back to the Frost GG until I can get the Transparent Foil from Filip!

New footage showing a daylight scene.

http://dvstuff.250free.com

Bought some Mylar today for the CD/GG. Wow, what a difference in quality - but at the cost of losing light levels (will posts some pics in a few minutes). There is a great grain-like look to it and I cannot really see much of a spinning CD's with it (something that is obvious with Frosted GG/CD's). The hotspots is virtually gone as well because of the opaqueness of the material. I am going to try some more tests and see if it is a trade-off I can live with.

I am also looking for supplies of blank WHITE CD's. I only can find the GREEN TINT ones in stores. Does anyone know a company that sells them? maybe even just sells the plain packing cd's?

http://dvstuff.250free.com