Hey guys--Just talked to Pro Video and Tape up in Portland and they had a show last week where this new tripod from Cartoni was debuted, supposedly for the first time, anywhere:

www.mediatrade.fi/PDFs/Cartoni_Focus.pdf

As you can see it has true fluid drag for pan and tilt, cont. variable counterbalance, illuminated bubble level etc. They quoted me a price of $1313, including aluminum legs and mid-level spreader. This seems like a pretty sweet deal, but I don't exactly associate Cartoni with high-end tripods. Does anyone own a Cartoni (DV Action Pro or others) or does anyone have some experience with them who might be able to offer some feedback. THanks!

Peter

PS Pro Vid and tape said they will be getting these in stock mid this month. I am going to try one out and soon as they come in stock and will write back with comments.

I came across this head on the Cartoni website and decided to check it out at a local distributor. The head appears to have the same fluid drag and counterbalance adjustments as the more expensive Laser head. I don't know for sure, but it probably incorporates the latest Cartoni patents for fluid drag adjustment and an adjustable spring-cable-pulley counterbalance system. This would make it a true fluid head where the drag adjustment is done by moving stator discs in or away from the rotor discs (similar to the O'Connor method).

The interesting thing about this head is that it can counterbalance all the way from 2.2 lbs to 22 lbs (but what CG they don't specify). Also, the head only weighs 4.4 lbs, which is a good 1 lb less than a comparable Sachtler and almost 2 lbs less than an O'Connor.

Things I noticed were: the head was smooth, but the maximum drag is not as high as the more expensive Laser head. I would guess the max setting on the Focus is about half or three-quarters of that of the Laser. However, it's still fairly high as it is. You'd have to test it yourself to see if it's high enough for your taste. Also, the tilt drag knob was not very ergonomic in my opinion (but I was told this might change on production units). The head comes with a fixed length panbar instead of a telescopic one but it does have a nice illuminated bubble level.

Overall, a very nice head for the price (head alone should cost about $900) with an incredible balance range. But keep in mind, if you change drag settings a lot, it's harder and slower to make big changes because you're physically working against the fluid as you turn the drag adjustment. The adjustment knob or ring feels tighter the more you turn it. O'Connors are the same way. Sachtlers are different because they have discrete fluid modules which you engage or disengage by moving pins. So the adjustment force is light and the same for all settings. But so far Sachtler doesn't have a counterbalance that has a range like the Focus. It would be cool if Sactheler used O'Connor's counterbalance system in the future since they are now owned by the same parent company.

This thread is just a surperb explanation of how the Cartoni is built that I'm adding my two cents here.

EVS now has the Cartoni Focus in stock and is nicely priced. I wasted 2 weeks getting the run-around from a New York place (begins with A, ends with dorama) trying to get a Sachtler DV 4II. All I got were lies (stock room is closed, it'll be in stock in a few days, I'll call the buyer, let me get back to you). All that just to say there's something to be said about the DVINFO sponsors.

See initial evaluation in later posting.

IO haven't used this head yet, but i shoot with the DV Action Pro and the Delta head on bigger sticks regularly. (infact using both on a shoot tommorrow..)

I'm not a big fan of the Action Pro, i find it to be *too* simplifide ot give the elements of control i like - and i find the legs a little aquard, probably beacuse i'm used ot spreaders. - But it very light and fast to use - and it's not really that bad.

The Delta is a very nice head that we have under a Large DVCAM camera (Hitachi V-21W) and it works very well. the counterballance adjustment is good, and the drag adjustments have a wonderfull range from stiff enough to let go in any position, to compleatly frictionless - just incase you are shooting a nature documentay on hares in march!

I'v also shot on some of the bigger Cartoni heads and they have all worked very well. I had one under a Thompson LDK300 Triax camera which i normally used on a Sachtler and it actually prefered it for operation. :-)

Incidently allt he Cartoni heads i'v used have been from mediatrade! (the PDF link...)


- Mikko

Just received my Cartoni Focus today. I don't have the experience or pedigree to compare it with other heads in it's class. I can only provide my personal opinion as a serious hobbyist. This is my first head in this class so anything is a head above (pun intended) what I've previously had although I have on occasion used a Vinten 10 but that's out of this class and this world. Enough caveats.

The first thing I noticed is that it comes with an adjustable pan bar. This tidbit never showed up in any posting or review I've seen. While the pan and tilt are continuously variable, the pan has 27 discrete stops in it's range. Granted, it doesn't have a dial as a higher end model might but if you are willing to go to the end of the range and count, you can dial in consistent settings.

The adjustable counter balance is my favorite feature as it sets this unit apart in its class. The Miller DS10 and Sachtler DV4II (according to my research) are strictly ON/OFF for counterbalance, pan drag and tilt drag.

The Cartoni website specs say the focus counterbalance goes from 2.2 - 22 lbs. I was easily able to balance my XL1s without the spring drifting the tilt. It maintained the balance when the tilt drag was at minimum.

The illuminated level is a nicely implemented feature. Hit the button and it lights up for 10 seconds and then slowly dims for another 5. This feature is huge for me and I've always wondered why the other heads in this class don't have one.

I can't detect any stiction or bounce in pan or tilt. The mechanism feels consistent with Tim's description of its inner workings. The head is comprised of the inner base and a 3 piece outer part (left, right and top). The inner and top pieces have a matte finish a bit rougher as if die-cast while the left and right pieces have a smoother finish and appear as if they might be a different (denser) metal. However, I'm not a metalurgist and I offer these as just impressions from observation.

So far, I'm thrilled to have a head of this caliber at under $800 and am sure I will enjoy it for as long as it lasts. As a 100mm head, I thought it would be a great match for my Bogen 540ART legs while still clocking in at the lighter end of weight the scale at 4.4 lbs so it doesn't consume the advantages of investing in lighter CF legs.

THIS HEAD IS NOT COMPATIBLE WITH THE BOGEN ART LEGS. The bowl handle is too large to fit inside the legs when collapsed.

My only concern thus far is the sliding plate lever being plastic. If the unit ever falls over, that thing is a gonner.

[UPDATE: May 29 - I was wrong, the quick release plate lever is not plastic. It is some kind of lightweight metal. This is good as it might actually sustain a few knocks. All told, I recall many listings for used tripods that mention certain knobs being broken and I happen to experience a loss of a knob on my Libec just last week so I was sensitive to this issue.

There is no question about the incompatibility of the bowl handle being too large for the Bogen 540 ART legs. Fortunately my last hobby was woodworking and an hours worth of a rasp and some files created a pile of dust reflecting each of the 4 knurls of the handle losing a good 1/8" off their length. Each shortened knurl had to be rounded as well. It is less than ideal and it makes an already tricky operation of closing the ART legs even trickier. It looks like Bogen has some other handle designs but Cartoni does not. I have a shoot tomorrow so I can use this unit for real.]

Thanks for the report Ernest. I'm very glad to hear they're now including an adjustable pan bar. Here's a picture of a pre-production unit back in February. Can you tell us if anything has changed, like if the adjustment knobs have changed?

http://img90.echo.cx/img90/299/focus0ga.jpg

The tilt and counterballance knobs are the same as in the prototype. The quick release plate lever is different. The pan drag control in the production unit is different (might be a little higher so there's more to grab. Also, there's not a ring with markings.

Unfortunately, I've hit a big snag. The bowl handle of the Focus is too large for the Bogen 540ART opening when the legs are collapsed. This is a problem.
[UPDATE: Removing 1/8" off of each handle knurl circumvents this but makes closing the legs even trickier.]

For those curious, here's a photo of the production version:

http://img183.echo.cx/img183/1884/focusnew7rt.jpg

Photo courtesy of Ernest House.

I got one of these last week after waiting for it for about 6 weeks. It is an excellent tripod & head combo. I got the carbon fiber sticks and I tell you, it's VERY lightweight for it's size. I will say I was surprised that the head seems to be made of hard plastic or something...not metal. I guess that helps the weight.

Anyways, I love it. ZGC sells them...go there and get one. For under $1800, these are great products.

KW

Just a followup after using the head in the field. The head is a pleasure to use. I needed slow movements and I felt the only thing that prevented me from getting what I wanted was my skill.

[update June 1 2005]
The head appears to be built from metal castings. Where did you see information otherwise? If it was my earlier posting, then I was mis-understood. To recap:

The tilt and counterbalance knobs are rubber.
The bowl lockup, pan tension, pan lock, pan bar locks and tilt lock knobs are ABS.
Everything else appears to be metal of various kinds.

Anything new to add guys? I'm about to order mine...

Unfortunately, I've hit a big snag. The bowl handle of the Focus is too large for the Bogen 540ART opening when the legs are collapsed. This is a problem.
[UPDATE: Removing 1/8" off of each handle knurl circumvents this but makes closing the legs even trickier.]

I had to smile at that. I have a Laser head and have exactly the same problem with my 540 art legs. It can be a real pain and defeats the purpose of the 540 in essence. Nevertheles the Laser head has been superb, very professionally featured for the price, stepless drag and C/B up to 10kg (actually a bit more if pushed).

As of today, all the major dealers are out of this head: B&H, Adorama, ZGC, Abel CineTech, and I think I got the last one from EVS. The US distributor for Cartoni (STE-Man) doesn't have any on hand, either.

Reportedly, Cartoni is still struggling to fulfill the NAB orders! Making matters even more interesting is how Europe pretty much shuts down during the entire month of August for vacations. So, the earliest additional stock would be available is in September! What a mess!

... But, I got mine : )

*yippee*

... that sounds like it is a great tripod, to be selling way more than production can handle.


cool, I'm casually shopping around for 1, and was thinking of a bogen (to avoid change base plates for my magiqcam rig) or a vinten vision 3 (which I know will be costly) but this interesting head+tripod came along.

I'm pretty sold on the idea that the spirit level has a light. Nice touch. shoulda seen this way WAY back, tripod designers !

Am becoming dissatisfied with this head on Bogen Art legs because of the problem with the tie down cup handle. FYI, the Bogen part below does not solve the problem as the threads on the Cartoni Focus head don't match. Sigh.
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=126666&is=REG&addedTroughType=search

I knew I was getting something good when I ordered the Cartoni Focus. When it arrived I was even happier with it than I thought I would be. It's sturdy and the knobs and levers that are used for adjusting have a real quality feel.

I've been using the Cartoni Focus a while now and wanted to follow-up. I am very pleased with this head. A friend of mine solved the problem with the Bogen ART legs which I copied and it totally eliminated the only negative I was experiencing. This only affects using it on Bogen ART legs, The solution is an improvement over the stock head's tie down cup so overall, I feel like I have an even better head..

I find the adjustable tension and tilt especially handy in accomodating the various configurations of my XL1s.

I've been using the Cartoni Focus a while now and wanted to follow-up. I am very pleased with this head. A friend of mine solved the problem with the Bogen ART legs which I copied and it totally eliminated the only negative I was experiencing. This only affects using it on Bogen ART legs, The solution is an improvement over the stock head's tie down cup so overall, I feel like I have an even better head.

Ernest,
I'm very curious what solution you and your friend worked out. I'd likely buy this tripod combination (Cartoni Focus head with Bogen 542ART legs) if this issue can be resolved.
Thank you,
Jeremy

I have a manfrotto 542 ART legs, I guess it is the same as the Bogen 542 ART - does anybody know if the Focus will fit to this?
Maybe somebody could post the diameter of the Focus bowl handle ?
I measured the inner diameter of the 542, it´s 65 mm on the most narrow spot. this narrow spot is located from 50 to 80 mm below the hole ( bottom ) of the ball cage. ( sorry my english is not that good .. ), it´s where the holders/cardridges of the legs are located when the legs are closed.

I've been contacted by several readers asking about the fix that lets the Focus work with the Bogen ART legs. The solution was to buy a Bogen 3141BALL which is a 100mm ball leveler with a straight handle tie down cup. You throw the ball away and have to retap the threads in the tie-down cup to match the Focus. Before you take delivery on the head, you may ask the dealer of they will do it for you if you send them the part.

Ernest,
I'd likely buy this tripod combination (Cartoni Focus head with Bogen 542ART legs) if this issue can be resolved.
Thank you,
Jeremy
Hello, I just wonder why so many are buying the 542ART instead of any Cartoni tripod to the Cartoni Focus head. The Cartoni tripods weigh much less according to their broshure, for instance a T622/C is 5 lbs compared to 8.8 for the 542ART.
Is it for the ART system? Will it make it much faster? I'm about to buy a tripod and will probably get the Focus head.
Thankful for any good information.
Johan

Weight is important to figure out. The ART legs are OK and take getting used to. They are fast to change height and setup. Another difference with the T622/C legs is that the Cartoni legs are 1-stage vs the 542 2-stage.

Another difference with the T622/C legs is that the Cartoni legs are 1-stage vs the 542 2-stage.
Hello Ernest,
Yes, but I'm actually considering the Cartoni T622/2C which is 2-stage at only 4 lbs according to their specs. This is amasingly light (4 lbs) and only 22.6" folded.
However, the closed length of the 542 ART is 28.7" which is actually closer to the 1-stage T622/C with 32.8".
I havn't seen these two first tripods in reality and our dealer does just take them home on order.
I guess the rigid metal parts around the legs on the 542 ART explains the more than double weight.
Is the faster speed worth the weight penalty? Yes, it is like comparing apples and pears like Doug Boze said on the other thread. A light tripod so you will take it with you. Or a fast tripod so you will have time to get it up in time?

Weight could be a negative of the 542ART. It's surprising that a CF tripod is that heavy. So while the ART mechanism is disliked by some, I feel it works quite well and I would not like to go back to the flip lock routine. And, while fast on the setup, the weight may slow you down if running is what you do. I walk like a pack mule with all my gear. I don't know what camera you are toting but chances are it's something that will also slow you down. Add in the Focus head and ...

I would not trade my rig. Period. I understand you may want the lighter Cartoni legs. It was hard to find a photo of one but the one I saw had a floor spreader which I really don't like. One thing to research about light legs is are they so light that they aren't stable. My rig is well suited to the XL1s and I can go larger later as I expect my Focus and Art tripod to outlast my camera(s). THere are no clear answers. You need to decide for yourself.

Weight could be a negative of the 542ART.
Dear Ernest,
Thank you for your reply. I wonder if you (or anybody else) could weigh your combination:
Cartoni Focus head with pan bar and camera plate + Manfrotto 542ART with spreader and suitable ball or whetever it takes to mount it together. Yes, a complete working tripod combination!

I just received a Cartoni T622/2C tripod with Focus head and it was much heavier than expected.

Their brochure/web site stated 1.8 kg for the tripod and 2 for the head so I expected 3.8 kg.
The assembled tripod was about 6.9 kg!! Head 2.7 and tripod 4.2 kg!

Perhaps they listed the head without the included pan bar & camera plate & ball screw? Then the head is 2.2 kg but not usuable and still 10 % heavy.

Perhaps they weighed the tripod without spreader? That makes 3.1 kg - quite more than the 1.8 kg stated! Hm, light weight carbon - too light to be true!

So, please weigh one Manfrotto 542 ART with spreader! They state 8.8 lbs which is about 4 kg. Perhaps it is lighter, faster and cheaper than the Cartoni in the reality. Then my purchase decision could have been another.

Cartoni Focus, 542ART legs, 3141 Bogen tie-down cup, mid-spreader, pan bar, Varizoom Stealth, Bogen 540strap all weighs in at 12lbs or 5.44 kg.

I've been contacted by several readers asking about the fix that lets the Focus work with the Bogen ART legs. The solution was to buy a Bogen 3141BALL which is a 100mm ball leveler with a straight handle tie down cup. You throw the ball away and have to retap the threads in the tie-down cup to match the Focus.
Dear Ernest,

Thank you very much for your advice, it has helped me a lot and changed my mind.
In fact I returned the Cartoni legs and went your way with the Manfrotto 542ART legs combined with the Cartoni Focus head. What a tripod!!!!! I'm so impressed!

The 3141BALL was a bit difficult to find because it is called 500BALLSH here in Europe (SH stands for short).
The tap needed is a M10x1.5 because the pin on the Manfrotto ball has a UNC 3/8" thread but the Cartoni Focus head has a M10 pin.
These threads are quite close and it is easy to modify the brass threads with the M10 tap.

What a nice tripod combination!! Adjustable in every direction by just pressing buttons. And the great lockable mid-level spreader! No more dirty floor spreader on the uneven soil.
The tripod also keeps together nicely without straps or any extras!
I am glad I changed. Thanks for this great forum which takes the progress faster further when everybody can share their experiences! Thanks Chris!

BTW, this tripod requires a bit of practise until you know how to handle it. But I think it is worth it if you move around with your camera.
I'm astonished Cartoni can advertise a tripod as 1.8 kg when it is more than the double weight! This false information lured me to the wrong purchase at the first moment.
If you are out to buy a tripod in this price range take a look at this one. Definitely it is a development.

Thanks! /Johan

For all you Focus users out there, how have they been holding up? I've heard a couple people say that Cartoni tripods break fairly easily over time.

I'm torn between the Cartoni Focus and Vinten Vision 3. The Vinten is $1699 (comes with 2-stage aluminium ground spreader sticks), versus the Cartoni for $1499 (2-stage, carbon fiber, mid-level spreader sticks).

I've read many good things about the Vinten but accessories are ridiculously expensive so I'm leaning towards the Focus. Any owners have an opinion?

Been happy with mine. I'd buy one again if I needed a second tripod.

I use mine roughly 2 hours a month. I always am transporting it to/fro the location. It's flawless thus far. I am very careful with equipment tho.

I don't think Vintens are without blemish and I wonder about durability of Vinten's rebranded Bogens in only having the name. Coincidently, we had a Vision 10 bite the dust after only 2 years of use 20 hours a month. Good thing about them is that they are worth refurbing.