This may need to be moved or even deleted.. but i have this on good authority

bit of a leak of info to get us all going... heres some spec

-Prosumer DVX HDV solution

1/3rd CCD
50i and 25p Progressive.
NTSC 24p and advanced P
native widescreen
HDV recording in 25mbps AS WELL AS 50mbps (hehehe)
P2 card recording media, no tape. Woohoo!
Keep an eye out at namm/NAb (the one in april.. i dunno which one it is.. ) for a prototype.

expect it onthe shelves within 18 months..

U heard it here first.. ;)

Dude, 18 months - as in almost TWO YEARS?? Even if this is factual...it's not news to anyone.

If this is indeed the camera Panny is planning, it better be here in very short order. HDV as a format probably be toast in 18 months.

I wonder if the audio is the same as Sony's cam. Hope not. Maybe 50mgs per second allows for better audio.

The only problem with this rumor is that Panasonic is not part of the HDV consortium of manufacturers, nor are they planning on joining it, based on the conversations I've had with several Panasonic product managers. I think it's much more accurate to say that they're intending to *compete* with the HDV format in the form of an affordable, low-cost DVCPro HD camera. And that particular rumor is a strong one indeed. NAB will be very interesting this year!

And no, we don't delete posts. In fact this particular forum was established specifically for these kinds of rumors, so post away.

I've always been happy that Panasonic wasn't in the HDV consortium. I'll fully admit I'm not particularly up to play on HDV, but the idea of MPG2 really scared me when I heard about it. Editing intraframe stuff without special hardware seems stupid and I refuse to go through some preconversion step.

Also, I *HAVE NEVER* seen anyone post any realworld footage (Film, documentary, new report, sports etc) from one of the current (low budgetish) HDV cameras that really disproved the claims by some of artifacting etc. (Hehe, wonder if that will get people sending some links to prove me wrong - please do - cause I'm willing to be proved wrong and change my stance)

Anyway, back to the point. I'm just really curious to see what Panasonic do. It's obvious they'll have to play the HD game within the consumer/semi pro arena for a low pricepoint, just wondering how they will do it. They're an innovative company unlike Canon and others, and they seem willing to put a lot on the line like they did with the DVX and push things forward. Can't wait.

Aaron

wasn't this hd camera already shown last year...i don't see what the big deal is...

The deal is Robert, it was a wooden mock-up then... it'll be a functioning camera this time around.

that was a wooden mock-up, they had me fooled...it is nice to see the direction a company is going though, helps you plan on your gear purchase

Yeah, if we're talking about the P2 flash card camcorder, a little thing with a pistol grip looking kind of a like a Super-8 film camera, that was one of several mock-ups at NAB last year.

"low-cost DVCPro HD camera. And that particular rumor is a strong one indeed. NAB will be very interesting this year!"

and this one being switchable your not wrong..... ;)

rumours abound... but im believing waht im hearing to be more than that due to my source..

audio will most likely be based on teh DVX100 configuraiton

as for real world uses.. i been using the FX1 fo a while now and i like it... Im runnign it thru a Vizio 42' plasma at 50i and i am yet to see artefacting. Blacks are really nice, and whites come out clean. SOME motion is jittery though...

by "low cost" what are we talking about here? 10K low cost? 5k low cost?

Also, I'm assuming that if it is DVCPro, then it will require a special deck. i.e. it's a proprietary format?

Aaron

I think the recording to solid state media alone is worthwhile. I want this to be a common feature already.

<<<-- Originally posted by Aaron Koolen : by "low cost" what are we talking about here? 10K low cost? 5k low cost?

Also, I'm assuming that if it is DVCPro, then it will require a special deck. i.e. it's a proprietary format?

Aaron -->>>

I don't think anybody knows the price range. Also, you won't need a deck for uploading flash memory cards.

I think solid state or optical might be the only way to go for inexpensive HD. Tape at more than 25 Mbps is expensive. And even at 25 Mbps HDV on tape is pretty tricky due to the GOP structure. Dropouts with the Sony and JVC cameras are really the dirty little secret of HDV.

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson :
. . .

-Prosumer DVX HDV solution . . .

U heard it here first.. ;) -->>>

HDV, by definition, is tape based. From everything I've read, the Panasonic P2-based camera will be partially compatible with HDV, but won't support 19-Mbps rate.

<<<-- Originally posted by Lawrence Bansbach : <<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson :
. . .

-Prosumer DVX HDV solution . . .

U heard it here first.. ;) -->>>

HDV, by definition, is tape based. From everything I've read, the Panasonic P2-based camera will be partially compatible with HDV, but won't support 19-Mbps rate. -->>>

"HDV" seems to be being used as a catchall phrase for cheap HDDV by some lately. I don't think he meant that it would be tape based.

<<<-- Originally posted by Jesse Bekas :

"HDV" seems to be being used as a catchall phrase for cheap HDDV by some lately. I don't think he meant that it would be tape based. -->>>

That was my point. "HDV" should not be used as a catchall phrase. It should be reserved for the consumer HD format that meets the specifications of the HDV consortium -- that is, a tape-based format that runs at 720p25/720p30 and 19 Mbps or 1080i50/1080i60 and 25 Mbps. I can readily understand why, from a marketing perspective, Panasonic might want to emphasize that its P2-based system is not HDV: it will (according to rumors) support both 720p and 1080i, data rates up to 50 Mbps, and maybe even 24p. And solid-state storage will become paractical when 32-GB P2 capacities drop to, say, $100 or so, or if Panasonic adopts another, cheaper, higher-bandwidth flash-card format, such as the recently announced Taiwanese standard, M-card, which will support data transfer of 120 megaBYTES per second and may eventually hold 2 terabytes of data.

here is the link to photos and info on the p2 DVCPro HD camera:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panasonic-p2-flash-pro-04_18_04.htm

More Photos:

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=101

http://www.cinematography.com/forum2004/index.php?act=Attach&type=post&id=102

Now here's something I could get my wallet around...;o)
Eat your heart out, Sony.

JVC *could* really make a killer cam, if they could get there sh*t together. They've had two models to practice on...

Panny *will* make a great cam, but I guess they will stick with 1/3 chips to protect their product line.

Bring it on, man!!

Holy Crap that's a sweet looking camera! Droooooool! I want, I want!

Strange that JVC and Panasonic end up being mentioned on such opposite terms in the same post... after all they are almost the same company.

Actually I think all these companies can make the great cams we want. They just wouldn't make enough money that way.

But then, when all the HDV smoke clears up... there will be Canon, patiently waiting to say the last word.

god i hope it doesnt look like that.. maybe for the dvc30 hdv equivalent, but i think they should keep the original DVX100 design and rework the stabiliser coz its sux.

As for the consortium, in all honesty, i dont blame pana for not being a part of it, but at the moment "HDV" this is all we have to use as a title until this format is officially announced.

Canon will be patiently waiting with HDV XL3, but it won´t be useful for nothing. In fact, people with XL2 have their crappy infinite ring, if they dont want it, spend 2000 $ on new lenses, if they cant afford so big lenses, get the adapter for still lenses and multiply their range by 7.2 (getting nice telescopes) or try the mini35 wich is quite a bit amount of money (men, 10.000 $!!). And if the want to try these "alternative adapters" sections, it will be impossible for them because of being really difficult to find relay mounts (or something like this, very instructive in any case).

And the tapes issue, of course. I don´t think they will hear us to get rid of them...

Good old Pana won´t need all of this... and will accept these alternative adapters easy with little work to get great results. I hope even will still be able to flip the image with the magnet, very good add-on indeed.

Anyway, being from Spain and new in this aspect... When is the NAB? any way to get info? Will be people from here getting into there and sending nice posts?

I was a normal person before knowing this forum... Now im just totally nuts about it, in just two weeks! I even get anxious about the NAB not knowing it before! Just nuts!

Peter...

<< at the moment "HDV" this is all we have to use as a title until this format is officially announced >>

Panasonic's format has been announced, and it's been around for awhile now. It's DVCPro HD. I have to agree that calling it "HDV" is really misleading, because it ain't HDV at all (and never will be).

Ivan...

NAB is the third week in April. I'll be there and so will many other DV Info Net members, I'm sure.

Thanks very much for the info Chris!

I will have to rely on you people here (it is well said?) to get what happened since magazines here don´t cover it very much (nothing). I wish i could go...

Thanks again to everybody!

for the same price....what would you prefer?

the normal DVX or the DVX HDV?

You guessed it all right...I would go for the normal DVX cause you can't trust new tehnologies. Too many problems with sound and distortion with the HDV cams.

> Too many problems with sound and distortion with the HDV cams.

What? Is this based on personal experience?

If, an HDV enabled DVX existed, it would surely be able to operate in non-HDV mode like the Sony FX1/Z1. So, you could always just use god 'ol DV with it's outdated DCT compression, anamorphic widescreen, standard resolution and linear audio.

I'm interested in the DVCPROHD that has been talked about.

Not sure about the P2 system. Still haven't found out the costs of the cards and currently they don't hold that much information.

Would like to see a tape as a back as well as recording to the card.

But if people say hey I'm happy with the old, will they make a lot of changes. If they hear people want changes they'll hopefully make those changes.

ive seen 128GB cards available... more than enough for 25mbps recording. Just take a card out on each jkob and dont think about changing tape :)

other cards work as adapters and allow the use of 4 SD cards
I hav a brochure here... i just wish i could post an image of it..

<<<-- Originally posted by Peter Jefferson : ive seen 128GB cards available... more than enough for 25mbps recording. Just take a card out on each jkob and dont think about changing tape :)

other cards work as adapters and allow the use of 4 SD cards
I hav a brochure here... i just wish i could post an image of it.. -->>>

Did you actually mean 128 GB SD cards? Don't they have some kind of limit that's far under that?

no Jesse.. actual 128gb P2 cards..

SD cards only go up to 2gb at this point in time.. im sure theyll improve that by the time the cams come out ;)

look what i heard!

today i was in kind of bussines meeting with some people. i CANNOT say who they are (you will probably recognize the source), but the CONFIRMED info was following:


- company name P*******C
- appearance with new camcorder on this years NAB! (not mock-up! but working model)
- it's HD(V?)
- 50mb/s rate!!!
- solid state p2 solution
- progressive mode
- to hit the market - summer this year!
- price range similar to sony HDV (no info which one FX1 or Z1)
- possibly faster frame rates than 24/25/30 fps
- significant price drop for P2 cards!

so if this is true or close to - it looks that this link,

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/panasonic-p2-flash-pro-04_18_04.htm

mentioned earlier - is either an inspiration for the people on that meeting today, or their info is confirmation about nearest future. no info about 2006, just for summer this year. which looks much better for us.

and they said - well, this is JUST THE BEGINING!!!

ok. now - i know that many of you may say - hey there is nothing new here - the poor guy just edited our text and thoughts about pana rumors. nice. but i just wanted to say what i heared. they just said so.

filip

Interesting! But I'll stand by my assertion that it ain't HDV (can't be, as that company is not an HDV consortium member) but most likely it records in an HD format that has been in existence for awhile now.

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Hurd : Interesting! But I'll stand by my assertion that it ain't HDV (can't be, as that company is not an HDV consortium member) but most likely it records in an HD format that has been in existence for awhile now. -->>>

that's the reason i used "( )" with "v" inside. i didn't received direct answer is it HDV?

is it HDV? - no specific answer
is it HD - yes!
what kind of HD - no specific answer... just: 50mb/s

and kind of misterious smiles, like - you will see... soon...

well, let's wait and see:)

filip

Welp,

If it's a better cordless drill then the one I have now....I'll buy one. *shrugs*

In the meantime, I'll use the cordless drill I just bought to continue building houses. I should have built enough houses by the time the new drill comes out to have paid for my current drill.

Others who wish to wait idly-by, twidling their thumbs for the realease of the new upcoming feature-packed cordless drill, can do so......... ME...........I'm going to work.

*wink*

- ShannonRawls.com

As far as I can remember the only 50 Mbps codec is DVCPRO50 (D9), not HD. And then there is DVCPROHD (D-9HD) that runs at 100 Mbps for 1280x720.

So is it MPEG2-based? That would make it similar to HDV, like an "HDVPRO" kind of thing. Or it could be MPEG4 based, an AVC implementation. That would be groundbreaking stuff. MPEG4 AVC @ 50 Mbps would VERY high quality!

Can't wait to know more.

<< In the meantime, I'll use the cordless drill I just bought to continue building houses. I should have built enough houses by the time the new drill comes out to have paid for my current drill. >>

Man, finally! Finally someone around here understands exactly how this process is supposed to work! Thanks Shannon, I keep telling some of these guys that the power tools should pay for themselves within 60 to 90 days or so and then you sell it and move up to the new one. Maybe they'll listen to you, I never seem to be able to get this point across.

Guys, if you're waiting, you're not creating! Buy what you need Now... then sell it... and buy the next new thing. Lather, rinse, repeat. And save your original boxes.

chris,

do not forget about collectors ;)

thay just LOVE nice things...


filip

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-to-Announce-AJ-HDX100-Under-$10,000-HD-Camcorder-at-NAB-with-24P.htm



So it records to MiniDV as well, eh?

hm,

it looks that my source was not kidding... nice!


filip

p.s.

i just bought Z1...

no comments

I think that as long as this psonic camera is closer to 10k than to the fx1 - both the fx1/z1 one will be safe.

Now how low would the price have to be to make fx1/z1 purchasers consider this camera in their evaluations I don't know.

Its good for everybody that Panasonic is making a camera such as this, but I don't really think its going to effect much of us on the <$4k end of the spectrum.

I guess we'll all see soon though.

<<<-- Originally posted by Brandon Greenlee : http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Panasonic-to-Announce-AJ-HDX100-Under-$10,000-HD-Camcorder-at-NAB-with-24P.htm



So it records to MiniDV as well, eh? -->>>

no it wont do that.. they woudlnt go to this much trouble if it did.. it would defeat the purpose of P2. most likely it will have 2 p2 slots which can be removed on the fly...

Another term for dvcpro hd is dv100, a spec promoted by Pana and JVC since late 90's.

It uses the same error correction algorithm as dv25, but less compression (3 to 1 instead of 5 to 1), and of course larger resolution. 1280x720x60p at 8bit 4:2:2 sampling with 3:1 compression works out to 100mb (megabits not bytes). And like Dv25 its a lossy codec, but the same would apply to converting to mpeg2 also.

Seems Pana will have their version out before JVC. I half expect to see D9HD in the not so distant future even if JVC is part of the HDV consortium.

FYI, If I remember correctly, 1280x720 at 60p was supposed to be specifically for live sporting events.

A small correction, the compression ratio for DVCPRO50 is 3.3:1, but for DVCPRO-HD it's more like 6.7:1. It's capable of recording both 1080i and 720p. The new HDX400 is a DVCPRO-HD 1080i camera, and the VariCam is a DVCPRO-HD 720p camera.

> The new HDX400 is a DVCPRO-HD 1080i camera

Yes. So I had been led to believe... but the HDX100 is 720p, is it not?

We don't know yet. There's been no official release but I highly suspect it will be 720p. 1080 would be a hard bandwidth to pull off in this price range.

it'll be like the JVC build, native 720p, with 1080i upscalability...
in the end 720p is alot more eficient in editing , storage etc etc.. and you dont need a dual xeon to get results...

Hmm I wouldn't know about the dual Xeon since I use FCP... however: DVCPROHD is 100 Mbps for both 720p or 1080i, so in terms of bandwidth management there should be no difference.

As I understand it, the HDX100 will do 720p (as well as some sort of SD) and the HDX400 will do 1080i. What is not clear is if the model that supports 1080i will also do 720p or SD, or if they both have tape transports as well as the P2 slot. 720p60, at 100 Mbps, cannot be written to a standard DV tape. The cameras are also said to support various frame rates, and at least one of them will do 24p, which should bring the bandwidth down to 40 Mbps, still not low enough for an inexpensive tape transport, but --if my math is right-- low enough for a 16 Gbyte P2 card to hold almost an hour of video.

There actually was a press conference a few days ago where at least one of the new models were mentioned and some specs were revealed. Information from this conference, as well as informal conversations between members here and Panasonic insiders have leaked and this is why we are talking about this here. But Panasonic asked the press not to disseminate any information until a later date.

This is NOT about the consumerish mock-ups with a pistol grip and a super-8 like look. This might be the direct replacement of the DVX100 in Panasonic's prosumer front and it seems to directly compete with the Sony FX1/Z1.

<<<-- Originally posted by Ignacio Rodriguez :
This is NOT about the consumerish mock-ups with a pistol grip and a super-8 like look. This might be the direct replacement of the DVX100 in Panasonic's prosumer front and it seems to directly compete with the Sony FX1/Z1. -->>>

Ignacio, absolutely right on point one, it is not like any of the consumerish mock-ups with a pistol grip and a super-8 like look. Point two, no, it is not a replacement for the DVX100 and competition for the the FX1. It is competition for the Z1.

Hope that guides the thinking here.

Best,

Jan