I am trying in vain on Ebay to find what everyone is using as a macro lens in front of the camera - but most of them are tubes?!? Am I missing somethings? What should I type in so I get the correct search results for the Macro lens when trying to create the mini35/aldus35?

Thanks

macro filters seem to be the popular piece of equipment for these devices. 2 10x filters.

Glossary of terms:-

Macro lens. (attachment) = Close-up lens.
Lens tube. = Hollow tube threaded both ends.
Filter. = Optical device. Screws on front of cam.

Some slight misuse of these terms in describing the products has crept in. Any wiser player out there please correct me if I am beginning to make a fool of myself before damage is done to the knowledge base.

"Macro" as I understand it, is an accessory function which was added into camera lenses. It enabled a lens to focus on close objects whilst the zoom function was at it's narrowest field of view. It provided a "close-up" functionality to the lens and eliminated the need for another piece of glass, a close-up lens to be attached to the front for the close-up shots. Somewhere along the line, separate attachable close-up lenses became known as "macros".

A "Filter" as I understand it, is a piece of glass which is attached to the front of a camera lens or sometimes between it and the image plane to do something to the image without affecting the actual focus. It may be to exclude some colours of light, eg., type 85B to enable daylight filming with film which is balanced for tungsten light, or eg., neutral density filter, to exclude a measured amount of light to enable a slower shutter speed or wider lens aperture to be used, or eg., pro-mist filter, which does affect the image for creative purposes by softening it without necessarily diminishing the clarity of the image too much.

LENS TUBE. As I understand it, is a tube, threaded at both ends or with a male and female mount at each end. It fits between a camera lens and camera body to place that lens furthur away from the image plane. The purpose for doing this is to make that lens capable of focusing on an object closer than it was designed to do, giving it thus a close-up capability.



Okay, now to some descriptions -

Simple single element (= one piece of glass) close-up lenses (or macros as they now get called) are often set inside a metal ring wich screws into the accessory thread on the camera lens. This sometimes gets called the filter thread. Filters, which are usually one piece of glass are also set inside the same sort of metal ring which attaches to - guess what - what has come to be called the filter thread.

So, language evolves and the accessory mount becomes filter mount - the close-up lens becomes a macro lens - by association, the macro lens becomes macro filter, which of course it is not.

Some small camcorders do fine for close-up work without need for an added close-up lens as they have their close-up or "macro" function built in.
So for the AGUS/ALDU, for such a camcorder, the image path should look like :-

subject >> SLR lens >> groundglass >> camcorder.

For the camcorder which has less or no close-up function the image path should look like :-

subject >> SLR lens >> groundglass >> close-up(macro) accessory lens >> camcorder.

The ALDU builders especially desire an even light spread across their entire image because they need to use a larger area of the groundglass to keep the texure of their fixed groundglass fine enough in the overall image that it does not matter. The improvement is valid also for the AGUS builders to seek.

This image path is generally :-

subject >> SLR lens >> groundglass >> condenser >> close-up lens (when used) >> camcorder.

A variation on this is :-

subject >> SLR lens >> condenser >> groundglass >> condenser >> close-up lens (when used) >> camcorder.

Some other visitors here might chime in with names of products :-

The ones I know of are :-

HOYA.

Close-up attachments (single lenses)in three-pack.
Close-up attachments as achromatic diopter.

CENTURY OPTICS.

Close-up attachments as achromatic diopter.


If you are serious about image quality, the single lens close-up attachments are not recommended.


In the ALDU application, lens tubes are being used as a very precise and stable means to hold a groundglass and the SLR lens on the front of a camcorder. Some developer-builders are using stacks of empty filter rings to make adjustable lens tubes in effect.

Hope this helps and is not too pedantic.

No, that helps alot! But definitely leads to new confusion as well in this quest.
I kept wondering why (and this is my lack of knowledge) people weren't trying to find a way to put a SLR lens in front of the camera and leave it at that? Therefore is you figured out how to do that, you could use all the 35mm lens you wanted! So after thinking about this, I guessed it was one of two things :
1) there was no way to properly attach it
2) there was no grain, therefore people started using the groundglass.

I was thinking of creating a double female ended PVC attachment that would hold the 35mm lenses to my DV camera :

35mm lenses/groundglass << female end PVC PIPE female end << DV camera

Wouldn't this be a much easier solution? Couldn't one, therefore use step-up rings to attach the ground glass to the 35mm lenses, or anywhere in between?
To me, this would eliminate the spinning CD.

But thinking about this further, my MiniDV has a 44mm threaded front, so wouldn't I really just need is to find step up and down rings to attach to a macro lens, ground glass and then small section of PVC pipe attachment and then the 35mm lenses in front?

Somebody please correct me if I am thinking about this the wrong way!

What we need on this site is a tutorial on the basic theory of these adapters :D. Maybe I'll write something up sometime and post a link.

Mandy,

The reason for the ground glass is more complex. The ground glass acts as a projection screen that captures the image from the 35mm lens. This allows us to retain all the properties of the 35mm format. It's like projecting a movie on your wall and then filming it with a video camera. Same basic idea.

If we didn't have the ground glass the camera would only pick up a very small piece of the 35mm frame which causes all sorts of trouble with focal length, depth of field etc. Basically you can't just attach a lens to the camera. It doesn't work. Partially because the image plane of the 35mm lens does not line up with the cameras CCD. Everything would be out of focus.

Hope that was some help.

For your purposes I doubt you will need a macro lens since your camera has a 44mm thread. The macro comes into play with larger cameras such as the XL2 and DVX which have 72mm threads.

Oh, ok. I think it is 44 or 43. I have an adapter for it because I purchased a Tele and Wide angle lens a while ago for it.
So, back to your point - you say I don't need the Macro lens - but when I use the Tele lens I have for me camera, I still get Tunnel Vision when I use it if I focus with too wide of a shot (I know Tele is for bringing things in closer, so I really wouldn't need a wide shot with it on anyways). But that is why I wondered if a Macro might be needed :

I am using the PV - DV852 from Panasonic. It is a great little camera and I am realy trying to figure this out and then build it. Learning is fun in this case and it really makes me appreciate photography and those that understand it alot more!

So my next step it to build a mock up of it.

PS - why do the GL2 and the DVX need the macro lens?

Mandy, can you post a picture of your setup? It would help me understand how to help best.

<<<-- Originally posted by Mandy Leo :
PS - why do the GL2 and the DVX need the macro lens? -->>>

They use filters. Personally I don't know, I guess because of the large sized default lens.

So is the groundglass like the FILM STOCK in a 35mm camera? it takes the image? If this is true, then I can understand that. Right now, I am just trying to make a mock up of it and see what happens.

Here is what I think it is supposed to look like : corrections would be great - and this is without the housing (of coursE)

http://dvstuff.250free.com

Yep that looks about right. You will need to experiment to find the right amount of spacing between the ground glass and macro and between the ground glass and 35mm lens.

Yes the ground glass acts precisely like and takes the place of the 35mm film.

Have people tried using the TELECINE machines ? I have one that I used to use for converting 8mm/16mm to video. Basically, project through one end, at a 90 angle and mirror ,stick the video camera in the other end and record.

Ok, I did a mock up test : had my video camera in front of the GG and then my MACRO KIRON lens on the other side - but nothing happened. I could barely see what was through the lens of the KIRON, so maybe I have the wrong kind of 35mm to use for this? Anyone spot the obvious error I am making?

In an earlier development to relay night-vision, I tried the two lenses out of a Sony VCR16 which are a module which faces the projector and screws into the mirror case. I did not use the mirror, just the lens pair after taking out the ND filter.

This performed as a close-up lens to about 7+ power and was distortion-free onto a 2/3" target. How it would go with a standard movie frame of 24mm x 18mm I didn't test for.

Looking at your camcorder from the left side this is what your order of assembly should be starting from the left (= front-end ) and going back to the camcorder.

subject >> SLR lens >> groundglass >> Kiron Macro >> camcorder.

I'm only guessing here but to use your wide-angle as a close-up lens or macro, if it is constructed in two parts to enable close-up work, you may first have to remove the front element and just use the rear half which may even have "macro" written in red letters on it. Some are made in two halves to work like this.

The only problem is that the Macro lens is a huge tube! About 6inches long! And with an SLR end, I can't connect it to my DV camera. I might have to buy a Macro lens that will fit my miniDV and then continue to look for a 35mm lens for the front.

Mandy.

Ignore anything in the previous post which refers to the Kiron lens. By your description I assumed it was a close-up attachment for your camcorder but in your other post it is described in more detail and seems to be maybe, a zoom lens for a still-camera which has a "macro" (Close-up) function built in.

What sort of mount does it have on the back? If it is a "one fits all" type then it may be an older "T Mount" which was a universal mount which enabled third party lenses to be fitted to particular cameras via adaptors.

For useful help, you might need to describe your various lenses and pieces by including the details printed on the lens body, model numbers and the print on the ring around the front piece of glass in the lenses and also on front of your videocam lens itself.

Thanks Bob,

It is a KIRON - the writing says :
80-200mm f/4 MACRO 1:4 055 MC

The end of it is a round circle with three raised edges for locking and there is a protrusion of black plastic that I assume is there to protect the IRIS opener and closer.

It looks similar to this, but I think I have the 'light' model

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3340&item=3868109573&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#ebayphotohosting

My video camera has written on the front :

10X optical 43mm
f=3.85~38.5 1:1.8

But the front part comes off to reveal the thread and the guy at the camera store wasn't sure what size it was - I think he said it was a different number like 41mm or 42mm.

Does this help?

That is definitely a 35mm SLR still-camera lens. The version shown on ebay is for Yashica.

That lens if you use it, goes on the front of your Agus or Aldu about 46mm give or take a few mm, away from your groundglass. At f4.5, it is not likely to yield a satisfactory image. It may vignette or hotspot excessively and the image will darken the furthur into the zoom you progress unless your videocam is set to auto exposure.

If it will fit inside a Pringles can, buy a long can, save the frosted lid (there's two types, one in Europe with frosting on one side, an excellent gg for tests, the other in the US which is frosted all through and less clear. Eat the crisps, break the metal end out of the can so you are left with a tube, shove your zoom lens in if it will fit, if it is sloppy, pack it tight with an ankle-half cut off a holey sock or two wrapped around the lens barrel. Use the plastic cap over the other end for a gg screen.

Get in a dark room and use the assembly to look out of a window. With the backend of the lens about 45mm away from the Pringles cap gg, the projected image viewed on the rear of the Pringles cap is going to have to be a circle of even brightness about 32mm in diameter to be any good on an Agus, setup for the 35mm movie frame of 24mm x 18mm.

If it's any help, the movie clip on www.dvinfo.net/media/hart was shot through a dirt cheap secondhand Cimko 28mm - 85mm zoom which went f3.8 to f4.5 yet produced an entirely acceptable result except for the darkening when zoomed in. So there is really no knowing until you test. Even if it vignettes, a condenser may help but the consensus seems to be f1.8 prime lenses are the way to go.

I think the frame grabs from that clip are named mtatk1.jpg or similar if you want a closer look at the image. If you do, you may observe some interlace artifacts from a shaky disk.

Ok, thanks Bob. What I am going to do is this : I have two KENKO lenses for my DV camera (these I guess I can sub for 35mm lenses for now). I am going to try the pringles can this, but I must figure out a way to stick the FROSTED CD or the GG into the tube (if I can't find the frosted lid, maybe I will try wax paper or something similiar that I can find at the $1 store - and then I will try the MACRO lens and see what happens.
This is great Bob, now I can finally test this thing out. I will let you know.

Mandy.

The white plastic lid itself becomes the gg. If it is the US product, the lid will be opaque through its entire thickness so you could cut a hole in that, leave a 1/4 inch edge and use the lid as a ring clamp to secure a piece of lunchwrap (or architectural film if you can get it) across the end of the tube as a gg. This is only for testing by eye. If you want to video it, then you would need to add another tube to block out the sidelight between the lid/gg and your cam.

Bob,

Ok, big breakthrough for me! I finally got an image that I can use and show. I will post is shortly.
So this is what I did -
ACTION >> MACRO LENS (KIRON) >> gg (CD) >> dv CAMERA

It looks good, upside down and all, but here is where I am unsure how to continue.

To get focused on an object, I need to constantly move the macro lens either forward or backwards (because it is not stationary, I have it sitting on a tripod and I physically move it forward or backward depending on what object I want to focus in on)

When I focus on foreground objects, the background isn't always out of focus - sometimes it is as in focus as the background.
If I try to rack focus, I end up blurring everything rather than pulling one thing in focus and the other out.

And lastly, my Macro lens is about 3 inches away from the GG and the DV cam is also about 3 inches away - that makes for one big housing for the entire piece!

What am I missing here?

Ok, here is what it looks like:

http://dvstuff.250free.com

There is also a small explanation available with the pictures. Another thing, this little motor I got is amazing considering it is from a toy - there is very little if any movement when it gets up to full speed!

Mandy,
It sounds like you are using the video camera to focus. The video camera must always be focussed on the ground glass (or substitute). You must pull focus with the focus ring on the 35mm lens.

Cheers.

Thanks for the info! that helps out alot, now at least I know what to shoot for. The housing is my next project I am working on before I go and purchase the Micro35. If I can do it on my own, I am going to go for it- if it becomes more of a headache, the manual i will get!

The depth of field effect still depends on the zoom setting of your Kiron lens on front. Here follows a quick and dirty description of prime lenses and their effect, which except of sharpness and aperture, can be replicated on your Kiron lens once you have set the backfocus correctly. Your Kiron by the way should be set up without the "macro" function on it having been selected, otherwise it's is not going to hold focus through the zoom.

----

28mm = fairly sharp across all of image close and far. Perspectively, distant objects look more distant. Movement towards or away from camera or forward and reverse tracking movements of the camera will be accentuated for apparent speed. An impressive dynamic creative tool for action scenes.

50mm = reasonably sharp focus across all of image close but objects within the focussed area will be visibly sharper and set off against foreground and background. Perspectively, this lens replicates most naturally the human eye's view.

85mm = visibly softer on objects in foreground and background. You have a band of about 18 inches which is crisp to acceptably sharp. Perspectively, but not yet noticeably, objects begin to look flatter and distances are foreshortened.

105mm = a portrait still-photographer's favoured lens. A sharply focussed subject is set off against a soft background which does not have to be too far away. Perspectively objects are a little flatter and distances are foreshortened but again not detrimental to the image. This is about where convenient and affordable f1.8 aperture availability runs out.

135mm = a very useful portrait and outdoors lens, usually f2.8 is about as wide as it can be conveniently of affordably had. Persepctively, the flattening effect begins to be obvious. At this end and evenmore so in longer zooms, movements towards and away from camera and forward and reverse tracking movements of the camera are diminshed. A useful dynamic effect on roadways and trails for creating a sense of of a person paddling like hell and getting nowhere.

Please, if there are any 'fessional 'toggreffers out there, please correct any incorrect info and amplify what I have missed out.

Hello,

I'm new to the forums and like most people, have done some mad reading to catch up on the 35mm adapter threads.

I'm now at the stage of collecting my parts and was wondering if I can get a bit more help on MACRO lenses...(I posted on this thread cause I noticed a great deal of info already).

somebody previously mentioned:

For your purposes I doubt you will need a macro lens since your camera has a 44mm thread. The macro comes into play with larger cameras such as the XL2 and DVX which have 72mm threads.

I have a 43mm thread (Pana GS-400)...Would I not even need a macro between the camera and gg? Or should I get something that isn't as strong (2x or 4x as opposed to 7x or 10x suggested by larger cameras)

Also, two more things:

1) The thread size - Since barely any manufacture carries a lens thats stronger than 4x for 43mm threads, is it a wise idea to use a step-up ring for the MACRO? Will there be some vignetting/dark corners? OR will it be ok? I can find a good one (HOYA @ 49mm)

2) Also, what's a recommendable company at a reasonable price. So far Century Optics is out of my range, I was looking into HOYA and B&W. I'm worried about distortion, halo rings, vignetting, etc.?? Any comments

Thanks a lot guys, I appreciate all the info on the forums...and Mandy, good luck, your device is looking good :)

You don't need a macro lens, filter (sorry Kyle!).