Frederic,

if my settings are like this:

Frame size: 1280x1080 DVCPro HD1080i60

(The anamorphic 16:9 is not checked)

The pixel aspect ratio is: NTSC - CCIR 60i / DV

The field dominance is: Lower (Even)

The Editing Timebase is: 29.97

And the QuickTime Video Settings are: Compressor - DVCPro HD 1080i60

Can I start editing in FCPHD? I'm chomping at the bit, so to speak, to get crackin'! I also want to get started on Release Me (720p30). And can I go back to iMovie HD?

Thanks,

heath

hello there,
i know i'm boring, this is not DIRECTLY connected with imovie solution, but:

does anyone know is TIMECODE still the same as in original/master tape when using imovie solution?

thanks,

filip

<<<-- Originally posted by Filip Kovcin : hello there,
i know i'm boring, this is not DIRECTLY connected with imovie solution, but:

does anyone know is TIMECODE still the same as in original/master tape when using imovie solution?

thanks,

filip -->>>

No, timecode is not captured with iMovie.

thanks Nate!

filip

I've not had much luck getting AIC clips to play out of my Decklink HD Pro + HDLink setup.

When I tried to convert the AIC clips to either uncompressed or PhotoJPEG I had issues - the scaling up from the 1440 to 1920 in quicktime is quite poor, and produced noticible resolution loss and artifacting.

So, I exported 1440x1080 and then scaled up in the FCP timline to 1920x1080 and played out of the Decklink just fine.

Has anyone else noticed Quicktime doing a bad job of scaling HDV to full HD rez for use in other codecs, or is this a decklink quirk?

Graeme

Graeme,

My iMovie HD clips ARE in 1920 by 1080i. Looks fine, but I'm lost on getting the edited footage back to iMovie HD.

Also, anytime I try exporting to QuickTime, the image is stretched out horizontally.

heath

Well, Quicktime and FCP say that they're 1920x1080, but we know that they're not! They're 1440x1080 with a display flag so that they get displayed at 1920x1080!

Graeme

Funny thing is, set to DVCPro 1080i60 (1280x1080) and the compressor set to the same thing, it looks normal. But when I output it, it gets all stretched out the cast looks wide. How can I fix that?

heath

I've not tried taking AIC to DVCproHD yet... Have to try that next.

Graeme

This is the same problem I had...when Quicktime is doing background resizing from 1440 to 1920 you get the interlace chroma artifacts, etc.

When you resize the clips so the 1920 display flag is absent, and Final Cut has to do the anamorphic stretch instead of Quicktime, things work fine.

Also Graeme, if your AIC clips are 1440 and then you set the anamorphic flag in the FCP clip properties as opposed to stretching them on the timeline, FCP will do the anamorphic stretch without putting green RT rendering bars on clips. In other words, the resize becomes "free", instead of taking valuable RT resources.

Heath, to get footage back into iMovie you need to export 1440x1080 AIC codec, not DVCPRO HD.

After adopting Nate's explanation about 1440 x 1080, I'm doing fine with DecklinkHD. DecklinkHD displays AIC clips through its display out. But when you do something like placing transition, it would hang up.

So, I export the project to Blackmagic HD JPG, edit and apply it back to the AIC again. This works well.

So I have to switch the codec, huh? And export how? As a QT movie or a QT compression?

heath

As Frederic mentioned, it is faster to use "media manager" to convert the project. Caputer footage with iMovieHD, read it in with FCPHD, place them on a timeline with 1920 x 1080 AIC codec, make offline with media manger at Blackmagic JPG HD if you have DecklinkHD. It does all of the necessary resizing for you. Then after editing with JPG HD, use media manager again to convert the project to AIC, relocated and show the original AIC clips.

Maybe, I should make a new thread for this topic alone.

It rumored FCP HD will edit HDV natively? I not like all this HDV --> AIC confusions.

Davi,

When Apple release FCPHD which is compatible with HDV, the issues mentioned in this thread will most likely be solved.

The rumour is FCPHD to use AIC.

<<<-- Originally posted by Davi Dortas : It rumored FCP HD will edit HDV natively? I not like all this HDV --> AIC confusions. -->>>

FCP HD will almost certainly use the AIC method.

If you want to online HDV natively, there is LumiereHD.

Native editing, in my mind, would be to use the HDV MPEG2 codec on the timeline and have FCP able to do MPEG2 magic like the free software for the pc that comes with the JVC camera. I don't think this is going to happen, but I'm concerned about the quality of the AIC codec - anyone done any tests to see how good or bad it is??

What I'm hoping the AIC does is leave the I-frames of the HDV as compressed I-frames,, and also use them to decode the P and B frames back to I frames, and then store them, if you know what I mean. I don't know if that's how MPEG2 works - do you have to fully decode a P and B frame back to image data and recompress to something else or is there a state between being fully compressed and fully decompressed where the frame is independent like an I frame? Dunno...

Graeme

Graeme,

I will provide the files very soon.

Graeme,

I've been meaning to say (off topic) for you to say Hello to Wendy for me. As you probably know wendy and I were at York Uni, Ontario together for a year about a decade ago. I wish you both (belatedly) the best of luck with your new(ish) baby.

To the matter in hand. You can get MPEG2 (or MPEG4) onto the FCP timeline, it'll just always be unrendered, even without effects. However this timeline can be rendered out/exported, which is what I meant by native online.

Has anyone been able to extract MPEG2 I frames and figure exactly how big they are?

Any chance you'd be able to do the rather nifty difference test with a GOP of HDV and AIC that you did with Pixlet and PHOTOjpeg in your kenstone.net SheerVideo review (http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/review_sheer_video.html)? Unfortunately there do seem to be reports that there are additional artifacts in AIC (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?threadid=39017) as compared to native HDV

Thanks Dylan. Wendy says hello!

I've found that putting MPEG on the FCP timeline causes problems. It might be fine for a cuts only edit, but for more complex stuff FCP does weirdness and that can hurt.

I'm finding that just editing HDV seems to break it quite quickly. I don't know what Sony were using to edit their clips for the presentation, but the presented stuff didn't look too hot. The raw clips I converted myself to uncompressed look best, but I still see stuff in them. The AIC is, indeed, looking crumbly....

Graeme

So it looks like AIC introduces many compression artifacts. I've done some digging around trying to see if iMovie caches the transport stream before demuxing it and encoding it to AIC but no success.

Many of our customers are now saying that they prefer to keep using Lumiere HD because it allows you to preserve the quality better or encode to a 4:2:2 HD codec directly from the M2T.

Furthermoe, it looks like there is no way to choose better than 'medium' quality when exporting a timeline from FCP (You can from QT Pro).

We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow.

More on that soon...

Frederic

Frederic had me make a QT movie in 10 bit uncompressed, then open the QT movie and save it as an AIC at Best quality. However, when I did the first QT movie (10 bit uncompressed), I noticed that the image was stretched out vertically. I will now save as an AIC at best quality and see if it "flattens" out properly.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow. -->>>

Thank you, thank you, thank you!!! This is great news.

Hopefully Apple will do their part and iron out the MPEG2 audio sync issue. HDV start/stop detection would be a nice addition.

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : We decided to continue development on Lumiere HD to introduce many new features and a slightly different workflow.More on that soon... -->>>

what about TC support? will it be here?

filip

Filip,

It looks like this will be easier with the Z1 and the pro deck than it is with the FX1.

We'll try.

Frederic

Is anyone having audio sync problems? I thought I saw/heard some "slipping," but otherwise, nothing.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Haubrich : Filip,

It looks like this will be easier with the Z1 and the pro deck than it is with the FX1.

We'll try.

Frederic -->>>

thanks frederic,

that's what is needed !

fo course i'm talking about Z1.

filip


p.s.

say hello to tosha, and tell him this (fonetically!!!):

==========================
shtah rahdish seeneh? dhe see? :)))
==========================

translation: hey man (son) what are you doing, where are you...

it's kind of invitation when you see each other, and bit of slang in his native tounge. nothing offence.

For the FCP HD settings via iMovie HD captured clips, what should I put in for the HD10? Upper (odd) and Square pixels?

Thanks,

heath

With all due respect for the people who have generously given their time and expertise to this board - I would not call this a smooth workflow. A smooth workflow would be if Apple would not hold back features from their pro customers. What's worse is that I'm crashing just playing back footage in the timeline on a dual 2 ghz g5. It makes you want to get a pc!
Sam

Don't get a PC! <g> I don't have issues like that on my single processor G5 1.6 ghz Power Mac, but it can be a bit of a pain in the neck. I'm starting to notice the artifacting, which really stinks.

heath

Has anybody else had trouble with fcp freezing when playing back edits in an AIC timeline?
thanks,
Sam

No, but my copy of iMovie HD keeps having problems reading my HD10.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Sam Edwards : Has anybody else had trouble with fcp freezing when playing back edits in an AIC timeline?
thanks,
Sam -->>>

Sam,

If you look at my post in this tread, I mentioned that direct playing back with transitions would hang up FCPHD (rainbow wheels spinning forever).
Since current version of FCPHD is not officially supporting AIC at this point, we just have to wait until it gets supported.

Hi Kaku,
I guess I missed it in my frustration. Has anybody tried FCE-HD?
thanks,
Sam

<<<-- Originally posted by Sam Edwards : Hi Kaku,
I guess I missed it in my frustration. Has anybody tried FCE-HD?
thanks,
Sam -->>>

What you can do at this point is to use "media manager" and save the clips on a timeline as something works good (anamorphic DV or offline DV), do the edit and export back the timeline as AIC and show the original AIC clips.

<<<-- Originally posted by Kaku Ito : <<<-- Originally posted by Sam Edwards : Hi Kaku,
I guess I missed it in my frustration. Has anybody tried FCE-HD?
thanks,
Sam -->>>

What you can do at this point is to use "media manager" and save the clips on a timeline as something works good (anamorphic DV or offline DV), do the edit and export back the timeline as AIC and show the original AIC clips. -->>>

Exactly,

If you can deal with the AIC artifacts, you should edit AIC offline.

Both Kaku and I have mentioned this in this thread. It's not there yet.

HDV editing is experimental. That's just the way it is.

Frederic

<<<-- Originally posted by Sam Edwards : With all due respect for the people who have generously given their time and expertise to this board - I would not call this a smooth workflow. A smooth workflow would be if Apple would not hold back features from their pro customers. What's worse is that I'm crashing just playing back footage in the timeline on a dual 2 ghz g5. It makes you want to get a pc!
Sam -->>>

Sam,

I don't think Apple is holding features back from us. When iMovie HD and FCE HD came out, I thought it was a little peculiar that they didn't include HDV support in FCP HD.

After analyzing AIC closer, it makes sense. AIC isn't a professional quality codec. Many are now noticing the artifacts it introduces. It's no big deal for consumers who edit their kids birthday party but it's not acceptable for a professional solution.

Apple isn't holding anything back, they just aren't ready yet with a robust professional HDV editing solution. Editing MPEG is tough.

Frederic

do not forget that NAB is very close, so guys from apple must have some aces there.

look what others are doing... same story.

filip

I'm starting to notice said artifacts, Frederic. Ugh...

heath

Is there any way to configure or hack iMovie into using another codec instead of the AIC? Pixlet, or direct to DVCPROHD?

Avoid Pixlet like the plague - it's a ghastly codec that's worse in all respects to PhotoJPEG100%. I have no idea why Apple wasted time and money on Pixlet at all, as it has no advantage over low compression JPEG technology. Indeed, Apple should open up PhotoJPEG so that it works for RT at all settings of size and compression as it's a most awesomely good codec for most applications. I'm also told that JPEG2000 is good for compressing video.

Indeed, I don't know why they bothered inventing AIC at all, and would rather have had them just immediately transcode to high quality PhotoJPEG.

Graeme

I used Pixlet with no problems, but then again, I don't know if it is worse than the AIC. I'm very frustrated now...

heath

You don't get problems with Pixlet, but it's slower to compress / decompress than PhotoJPEG100%, and it has slightly lower quality for a larger file size. That's why I don't like it, because an old standard like PhotoJPEG beats it in all areas that count, and it is a standard codec everyone can use.

Graeme

I probably need some education here, but why not just use DVHSCap to capture the MT2 files and convert them to DVCPRO HD for editing?

Wouldn't this give you a better codec to edit in than AIC?

DVCproHD works well, but it is quite heavily compressed, and you loose some horizontal rez - down from 1440 to 1280 - however, I don't think visually this matters much as the camera might record 1440 pixels across, but I don't think the camera / lens / tape system resolves enough detail to warrant 1440 pixels.

Graeme

I just don't understand.

If space wasn't an issue, why isn't there just some kind of uncompressed format we could convert to?

Apple 8bit 4:2:2 uncompressed codec works great, but you need a very large and very fast drive for it. I'm using an Xserve RAID and it works very well with this kind of uncompressed HD.

Graeme

I don't like DVCPro HD at all--when trying to make DVDs, the image is squashed and actors look "wider."

To do a "Best" quality QT movie of the AIC, I had to do the 4:2:2 and for a 3 minute movie, it was 20 gb on my firewire drive (7200 rpm) and couldn't play at all! But I used QTPro to save it as the AIC Best.

heath

Try the DC30 lossless 4:2:2 codec, it is half the uncompressed from FCP and it works well even on slower machines.

I will post an example of the AIC destruction in nthe post I started regarding AIC compression soon.