Hello everybody,
I am planning to shoot a documentary at the summer with the Z1 and a 16 (S16)mm film camera.The documentary will be shoot 90% Z1 and 10% 16mm.The film will be telecined to 1920x1080/24p uncompressed and the HDV will be shoot at 1440x1080/50i.
I know that the 2 format will not intercut well and that is not my intentions.I want the 2 different look in the movie
What will be the best way to edit this movie on PC ? What resolution,frame rate,editing system ? Can Premire Pro handle this or may be Avid Pro HD?
Any ideas will be greatly appreciated.
Thanks
Gabor

Gabor,

Are you thinking of editing at 24fps or 25fps?

One or the other you'll have to decide. It might be better to shoot the film at 25fps and keep consistent, seeing as the film will only be 10% of your material would be film. It would also be simpler dealing with everything at 25fps. If you want to edit at 24p you'll have to convert all of your Z1 footage.

What is your destination, Video/Broadcast or 35mm film release?

At the moment Avid cannot handle HDV, so you would have to convert your Z1 footage to something that Avid could handle. Premiere Pro can handle HDV with the cineform plug in. I don't know if it would be able to deal with uncompressed 1080.

Thanks Dylan for your reply.
the destination is broadcast and dvd.No 35mm film.
I have to shoot the film at 24fps and I think I better convert it than to 25fps and to all the editing at 25p.The film camera will not shoot at 25 but 24,32,48 so 24fps will be the choice.

Gabor

If I want to edit the 1080/50i HDV footage together with the 1080/24p 16mm film footage I need to convert them into the same resolution and codec,right ?
If I convert them all to 1080/25p or 1080/24p I will lose all the real time effects with Aspect HD since it doesnt support this ,right ???
So it is better to edit the 1080/50i HDV footage first and when finished with all the editing convert them to 1080/24p and edit the final cuts together with the 16mm which is already 1080/24p???
Any other ideas?

Gabor, convert everything to 50i rather than 24p. If your footage is you won't loose anything in terms of quality going from Uncompressed 24p to AspectHD (other than what the codec loses)

Your output will be 50i so editing in 24p is no use.

Dylan,
so are you suggesting a workflow looks like this ?

Step 1 : Shoot 1080/50i HDV and telecine the 16mm film footage into uncompressed 1080/24p
Step 2 : Import 1080/50i HDV into Premiere as CFHD .avi
Step 3 : Convert 1080/24p 16mm film footage to 1080/25p and from there to 1080/50i CFHD .avi
Step 4 : Edit all HDV and 16mm film together as 1080/50i CFHD avi Real time in Premiere Pro
Step 5 : When editing is done export as 1080/50i avi file.
Step 6 : Use DVFilm Maker 2.1 to convert the 1080/50i file into 1080/24p for a Master.

Step 1&2 is pretty clear.At Step 3 what software would you use for this conversion? How do you convert 1920x1080 (16:9) into 1440x1080(16x9)??
Step 4&5 is pretty straightforward also. At Step 6 DVfilm Maker will take the avi file or needs some other codec ?
Gabor

Gabor,
To be honest I don't know the best answers to most of these questions, you'd be best posing them in the Cineform forum (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=76). These are editing rather than aquisition questions.

What I will say is that unless you're going to sell your show in the North America/Japan, then you don't need to be at 24p at any stage. You should get to 25p/50i as fast as possible, probably at the Telecine stage. Outside Cinema, 24p is only really used as a shooting format because it is easy to convert to both 60i (2:3 pulldown) or 50hz (4% speed increase)

I don't know about DV filmmaker's software, but in most cases HD format conversion is done by very expensive very rare hardware equipment, and often the 60hz channels that show HD will not show any HD material that was not converted using such equipment. I can't believe a desktop app is going to match it, but I don't know for sure. But then, they (e.g. NHK) would probably just take the 50i tapes off you and do the conversion themselves and anyway, currently NHK and Discovery HD currently don't accept anything that is not +90% 35mm, HDcam or Varicam. Super16 and HDV are not considered good enough unless it's for short B camera inserts or otherwise unobtainable footage.

Having said that, outside Australia, does any PAL/50hz station actually have Broadcast/cable HD?

Is it possible to move this to the cineform section may be David can give some more info on this...Thank you Dylan for your input.
Thanks

<<<-- Originally posted by Dylan Pank : I don't know about DV filmmaker's software, -->>>

I realise I got some facts wrong in my last post here. First off I should give the software its proper title, which is DVfilm Maker (http://www.dvfilm.com/maker/index.htm/).

Secondly, I referred to HD standards conversion, whereas DVfilm Maker is specifically for de-interlacing 50/60i and creating progressive 24p frames, so a comparison between DVfilm Maker and hardware designed for a different application wasn't right. Sorry to Marcus and the folks at DV film for that.

Unfortunely the editing period for this post has elapse or I'd correct the original post.

<<<-- Originally posted by Gabor Lacza : Dylan,
so are you suggesting a workflow looks like this ?

Step 1 : Shoot 1080/50i HDV and telecine the 16mm film footage into uncompressed 1080/24p etc... -->>>

Gabor,

i think that solution should be as simple as possible!!!!

i do not understand why you cannot shoot with Z1 24fps?

on this camera there is "ntsc" mode -cineframe 24.

in this case both 16mm and HDV will stay in 1:1 ratio considering framerate.

but i do not know what will happened when you digitize that do NLE? Especially in PAL country - where as i understand you will edit in PAL mode...

never tryed that.

maybe you should try that.

but to be honest - in your place i will CHANGE 16mm camera, and find one which CAN shoot 25fps. then EVERYTHING is simple.

another thing - considering broadcast - edit offline on DV level. (downconverted fromHDV-->DV) why go expencive (HDV path) before on line?

untill summer HDV solution will grow and you will find proper solution for ON LINE.

filip

p.s.

Magyar es lengyel jo barat,
Karddal s pohar kozt egyarant :)))

Because CineFrame 24 is lousy, Filip. Nobody would want to use it. CineFrame 25 provides a much better, more accurate rendition of motion, and the small 25->24 change in speed should prove well worth the effort rather than actually shooting in CF24.

Shoot in CF25 as Barry says, that's how both filmouts I'm aware of have been shot. However, I *think* I've stumbled on a workaround that makes the 24 look pretty good, albeit marginally clumsy. Once I see it projected from a Qualia, I'll know for sure, but that will have to wait for a few weeks.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : Because CineFrame 24 is lousy, Filip. Nobody would want to use it. CineFrame 25 provides a much better, more accurate rendition of motion, and the small 25->24 change in speed should prove well worth the effort rather than actually shooting in CF24. -->>>

Barry,

i agree with you but i just tryed to find solution for 25:24 problem.
you are right - CF24 looks "staccato" compared to CF25. when broadcasted. didn't saw it on the big cinema screen maybe it looks better then.
but the moment i wrote i didn't think about that (i mean about how it looks on pal/ntsc monitor). you are perfectly right.

and therefore i tryed to find simplest solution for 25:24 problem, because i do not know how to work with two different frame rates CF25 and 16mm 24fps in ONE NLE project.
if goal is to KEEP original frame rates. or if this is a must for some reason...
have no idea.

filip

You won't want to keep both frame rates. If you're making a program for PAL broadcast, or 50i HD broadcast, or DVD in a PAL country, shoot 50i and speed up the film by 4% so it runs at 25fps. Nobody on earth will be able to tell the difference.

Likewise, if your product is destined for NTSC or 60i broadcast/DVD, leave the film at 24fps and slow down the CF25 footage by 4%. CF25 at 96% speed is going to look a *lot* better than CF24 footage.

<<<-- Originally posted by Barry Green : You won't want to keep both frame rates. If you're making a program for PAL broadcast, or 50i HD broadcast, or DVD in a PAL country, shoot 50i and speed up the film by 4% so it runs at 25fps. Nobody on earth will be able to tell the difference. -->>>

i agree 1000%,

i think that i poorly understood the first part of gabor's (starter of this thread) intention.

i just thought that those 24fps is a MUST for him, even when imported to NLE system together with HDV material.


filip

CF24 looks lousy on the LCD and EVF but looks like any other 24p when seen on a monitor, it looks quite fine, really. I think the problem might be coming from the downconversion to the LCD display because the downconversion to a CRT monitor makes it look pretty much like the 24p of the DVX100a I use frequently and a HD television makes it look very nice. I should post some examples of CF24 motion and it is not bad at all. Of course, 24p is not 60i, you have to be cautious when panning or travelling but it is the same in film. I am quite pleased with the CF24 results so far. I think too many people took for granted that the jittery effect of the LCD and EVF where the exact look of CF24. Also, a pulldown is not at a compatible frame rate as the display, a 24p would look much less jittery on a 48i display (witch obviously does not exist), a 25p looks better because you always have a 2field-1frame ratio. Don't forget that, once converted to film, 24p looks less jittery.

<<<-- Originally posted by Douglas Spotted Eagle :
However, I *think* I've stumbled on a workaround that makes the 24 look pretty good -->>>

DSE,

After running some tests last night with CF24 footage. I made it look Mighty good by doing this in Vegas:

1. I started with Downconverted CF24 footage.
2. In vegas, I begin with a regular NTSC DV Widescreen (720x480, 29.970 fps) project, but I change the field order to 'None (progressive scan)' because that's how the CF24 footage comes in downconverted from the camera. I also change the 'deinterlace method' to 'interpolate fields' and change the 'full resolution rendering quality' to 'best'. Hit 'OK'.
3. footage looks ugly and plays choppy.
4. to fix that, I right click the video clip that's on the timeline, and choose 'properties'. On the 'video event' tab I 'disable resample' and (here's the special magic), on the 'media' tab i manually change the clips field order to 'lower field first', even though it was captured natively as progressive. Hit 'OK'.
5. After doing this, all interlacing is gone, and the clip is not so ugly anymore, and studdering is almost gone.
6. Cut your footage as normal. Make sure your video preview monitor is blown up full size, or you will see some stuff that really isn't there if it's a little miniature screen. I mean, it's ok to keep it mini, but don't look at that and think that's the final output, cause it's not. to see it correctly, you must blow up to full size.
7. Now, you will have noticed while cutting your footage that every 4th & 5th frame are the exact same. THAT'S OK, all you need to do now is export to 24p adding 2-3-3-2 pulldown. (not 2-3) to remove that judder frame, and set the correct 24p cadence.
6. So simply 'Render As' either a new DV .avi file choosing "NTSC DV Widescreen 24p (2-3-3-2)" or a "DVD Architect 24p NTSC Widescreen video stream" to make yourself a 24p DVD, (be sure to hit 'custom' button and include audio stream too).

CF24 DV is doable and becomes true 24p, and looks darn sexy too. I don't know if anyone has tried this, but on my footage it looks gorgeous, and is 24 frames per second progressive footage, all day long.

After you're done, take your clips and compare it to your bestfriends XL2/DVX and see who comes out smiling the hardest. (ever slam dunked on the court in someones face??? yea...its like that!)

DSE....tell me what you think.
Everybody Else....give it a shot and tell me what you think.

This method may have already been discovered, but I never found anybody who said anything, so I am saying it now. If I made an amazing discovery (which Im sure i didn't) then tell Sony I'll take a refurbished FX1 as a 'thank you'. LOLOL

Just Kidding.....

.....unless you gon' do it. *smile*

- Shannon W. Rawls

Uh... I just read through Shannon's steps up there, and I can't say at this point I have a very good handle on what exactly he acheived.

I'm curious if anyone can piece through it, and tell me if it's anywhere equivalent in workflow to simply removing the 2:3 pulldown, editing native 24p (23.976), and rendering the final video to either a 24p format or applying a 2:3 pull-down and exporting as 2:3 NTSC video.

-Steve

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven White :
tell me if it's anywhere equivalent in workflow to simply removing the 2:3 pulldown, editing native 24p (23.976), and rendering the final video to either a 24p format or applying a 2:3 pull-down and exporting as 2:3 NTSC video.

-Steve -->>>

Steve,

tried that. footage was ugly as all hell.

Instead, like any project......you have to correctly setup the project first, making the changes i noted (you can save this for future), then setup timeline clip as noted, to fix the ugliness....then edit.

COmpare that to simply removing the 2:3 is a world of difference in the final file.

Ofcourse, it was late and I was sleepy. *smile*

- Shannon W. Rawls

Well, the thing is this... I shot in Cineframe24, because I needed progressive frames to do effects work on frame-by-frame. Now I have a 24p master of my film. So far, no one has complained about the motion signiture.

So what I'm asking, is how do you take the 24 fps file and bring it to something watchable? My guess is that Cineframe24 will look okay, if you get the pulldown such that the fields line up properly in the 2:3 scheme. If you mess this up, you could end up with a frame originally set on 2 fields running for 3, making for a super-crummy studder.

-Steve

Why bother capturing in HD for a SD output? Use the internal downconversion of the camera, plug it to a capture card or a camera that can record from an analog signal and that should do the trick. It sends a 2:3 pulldown downconverted signal from CF24 and it looks very good.

<<<-- Originally posted by Eric Bilodeau : Why bother capturing in HD for a SD output? Use the internal downconversion of the camera, plug it to a capture card or a camera that can record from an analog signal and that should do the trick. It sends a 2:3 pulldown downconverted signal from CF24 and it looks very good. -->>>

EB (can i call you that? *smile*), I did capture to computer in SD. Granted I originally shot the footage in HDV, but I downconverted to SD in the camera for capture to the computer. It did send the 2:3 signal...however, without the tweaks, it doesn't look good all by itself.

unless your taking to someone else??

- Shannon W. Rawls

>>Why bother capturing in HD for a SD output<<

Hm. If he was talking to me...

'Cause I'm not going to output to SD, and FX work is a lot easier on the extra pixels in the progressive HD images.

-Steve

This is a really random question, but I'll shoot anyways,

Does the FX1 come with both CF24 and CF25 movie modes? I'm just curious because I get my FX1 model later this afternoon.

Jesse

I think not, but I am not sure.
It's the Z1 who does this because it shoots NTSC and PAL, so you get both functions.
I could be wrong though.

Hmm, I think you might be right because on the majority of sites that include the specs of the FX1 it only mentions movie mode CF24.... ugh.

The FX1 in 60i territory includes CF24 and CF30 (and not CF25).

The FX1 in 50i territory includes CF25 (and not CF24 or CF30).

The Z1 includes both, because it is both 50i and 60i.

What do you mean by the FX1 only has 50i in certain territories, I get my unit in today (finally) and I just want to know if mine will have 50i because I really want to use CF25.

If you live in a PAL-land, it's 50i.
If you live in America (NTSC), it's 60i.

Ugh.. that means CF24 for me then. O'well, I guess I can make it work.