iMovie will be part of the iLife '05 package and will ship on 1/22/05 for $79.

Final Cut Express HD will cost $299 or Final Cut Express version 1 or 2 users can upgrade for $99. It features HDV support and will also include LiveType and Soundtrack, and will Apple store is indicating 3-4 weeks on shipping.

Apple has not announced any HDV upgrades for Final Cut Pro HD yet.

http://www.apple.com/finalcut/

But does it support both the HD-10 and FX-1 or just the FX-1 ? And why no FCP upgrade ?

<<<-- Originally posted by Jason Beaton : But does it support both the HD-10 and FX-1 or just the FX-1 ? And why no FCP upgrade ? -->>>

both

During his keynote, Steve Jobs demo'd it using the HDR-FX1 with the president of Sony on stage. He indicated support for both 1080i and 720p HDV, so I would assume that the HD-10 will work as well.

Edit: As for the lack of an announcement regarding Final Cut Pro HD, that one leaves me scratching my head as well. In terms of product cycles, they only recently released their current version, so my guess is that they didn't want to mess with it yet. I suspect that we may see a quiet upgrade for HDV support sometime around the time that Final Cut Express HD is shipped, but that is pure speculation on my part.

It's really bizarre that they only announced HDV support for Final Cut Express. It's bizarre that a $300 product would receive support before their flagship $1000 professional product.

Ok, this ticks me off a little. I bought FCP HD - the full version for $1000. They go and release FCP Express with HDV support before giving it to us for free?? I highly doubt even ONE iMovie user has requested HDV support. We are professionals who spent the extra $ for their Final Cut "Pro" software.....hmm, yeah I'm kinda ticked off right now.

I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt and see if they have free web updates before they ship the FCP Express or iMovie HD out. I mean come on...iMovie does HDV before FCP Pro?!!!!! Insanity if they've spent anytime trolling these boards.

The good news is that the FCP HD Express page on Apple's site has "HDV and DV" as it's top feature. It's all over the pages, so FCP HD most definately should have it soon...I just don't think we should have to wait since they've obviously got their sh*t together with HDV.

I agree with Kyle, I too am speculating that we'll see a "quiet" and free upgrade to FCP HD for HDV support.

Then again, NAB is in 3 + months, so maybe they're waiting for then to announce it as FCP 5 or something. But it still doesn't make sense, because they're gonna anger people like us. It's really weird!

In the meantime, I wouldn't mind getting iLife 2005, and the $79 pricetag isn't bad. I really like GarageBand, so that's cool by me. But, I can see why others wouldn't want to shell out $79 after spending $$ on FCP. For me, I've had all upgrades and the original FCP 1.0, so I've spent nearly $2000 total, so I guess on the other hand, $79 is ridiculous to spend after forking out so much money on FCP and upgrades.

So, in conclusion, I'm speculating and a little curious (confused) as to why this is happening...Then again, everything announced today, except FCP Express HD, is consumer-based.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : ...Then again, everything announced today, except FCP Express HD, is consumer-based.

heath -->>>

FCExpress IS a consumer-based product. It's a very high end consumer, but it is still their consumer version (hence the lack of the word "PRO"). iMovie is their, for lack of better term, idiot proof application, like iDVD.
HDV was designed as a consumer format. Both of the cameras currently out are considered consumer cameras so it made sense that Apple readied the consumer application first.
I have word from a few Apple contacts that the update for FCP is coming soon so fear not. It kind of irritated me as well but the logic is, as a "professional", most production houses are not using HDV and to potentially update or upgrade their software unnecessarily would not fare well for many users. I can see the point, I mean, I have no plans to use HDV in the near future so why would I want to download an update to support a camera I can't even buy yet (HVR-Z1) and risk upsetting my beautifully stable system.
I was impressed they decided to bundle LiveType and SoundTrack with Express though. Those are both great applications and adds heavily to the value of Express but it makes me wonder... what have they got planned for FCP5? Bundle it with Shake?! I would wet myself! That is such a great program! I know they aren't doing that though. My sources won't tell me what they are doing but that it's nice.

I guess this is one of the huge benefits of being an active member of these boards...you learn something new everyday!

Rhett, you make sense when you say that FCP HD getting an HDV upgrade right now would upset some "Pro" users that might not need it..yet. (Z1 ain't out yet) Even though I consider myself a "Pro" user - the HDV cameras are in actuallity "consumer". Therefore, I guess that FCP HD's main users are probably not HDV'ers yet....more standard DV users by far and "film" users.

It kinda makes sense I guess...although, we're all $1000 buyers here like everyone else, so us complaining shouldn't be frowned upon!

Something of note - we should figure out what the iMovie HD will do for $79. If it captures and converts in real time...isn't that worth the price? If it brings in a long HDV clip and keeps it native, but somehow creates a project file importable to FCP HD?? I have no idea if that is possible, but it makes sense to me that HDV support in iMovie would benefit FCP HD somehow. Is there a new codec??

Could we capture HDV in iMovie and then import the QuickTime files into Final Cut Pro HD?

also, guys, keep in mind that Avid isn't promising HDV support until mid-2005.

heath

EDIT: for clarity

Oh my God...

I just looked at the Macworld Keynote Expo Keynote rebroadcast from Apple to hear the details of what Jobs said...

What piqued my interest is that Steve Jobs says you can *export* the finished HDV movie back to the Sony camera from iMovie.

This sounds great...use your camera as a deck to play back on HDTV sets...

And the video can later be burned on future HD-DVD recorders( Jobs specifically mentions Blue-Ray as the president of Sony was introduced at the Keynote.)

Of course, in the here and now--one can go directly to iDVD.

Steve also raves about the Sony HDR-FX1---he thinks everyone should get one...

I'm really surprised that iMovie HD is here sooner that I ever expected it to be.

Awesome.

You know, I've barely used iMovie but it's really a neat little program for the mom and pop and kids who want to make a little home flick so this is really a big step. The automated features should be a warm welcome making it even easier.
There is a difference in the way iMovie and FCP handle video making them slightly incompatible which makes it suck even more. (iMovie uses DV streams .vs FCP's DV) Sometimes I think it would be cool to just launch iMovie to capture a bunch of tape and log it into bins. I like the simple interface and with the new features it would be a cool little app for easy captures. Also, for iMovie to handle ANY format in real-time that FCP does NOT seems a little strange when comparing a $1000 "PRO" application to a free one. (referring to HDV and mpeg-4)
I'm really interested to see where this HDV thing is going because it seems like it's getting much better reception than previously planned. I can't wait to see the new Sony when it comes out too.
I'm one of those $1000 buyers as well and it would chap my butt if they didn't make it a free upgrade but I have faith that when it's needed, it'll be there. I do feel a little ripped that they are including LiveType and SoundTrack with Express (for $300) but since I didn't even know it was included in FCP4 when I bought it I just saw it as a bonus. (I also wish I had waited just a little longer to get the Production Suite instead of everything separately but I needed it all for my new laptop).
Now the whole issue of "Pro" .vs "Consumer" cameras. The line is getting a little fine isn't it? It seems the consumer cameras are catching up quickly and the "PRO" (lower end) are getting a little less PRO.

Sometimes I think it would be cool to just launch iMovie to capture a bunch of tape and log it into bins. I like the simple interface and with the new features it would be a cool little app for easy captures.

No it's not, not even with the new features. I went this route for short time when my FCP3 was buggy and it is a pain.

Now if only Apples weren't more expensive than a classic Mustang...

They have that new $500 model you could buy. And it will come with iMovieHD and iDVD as well. Not a bad deal and certainly less than a classic Mustang.

Good point, Rhett.

heath

I think at least Apple should offer FCP users a "downgrade" to FCE HD for the $99 upgrade price.

Ursula, that's funny...but actually makes sense. Can we "downgrade" to FCP Express to get HDV support?? Something just doesn't seem right here.

<<<-- Originally posted by Rhett Allen : There is a difference in the way iMovie and FCP handle video making them slightly incompatible which makes it suck even more. (iMovie uses DV streams .vs FCP's DV) Sometimes I think it would be cool to just launch iMovie to capture a bunch of tape and log it into bins. I like the simple interface and with the new features it would be a cool little app for easy captures. -->>>

One thing that the new version of Final Cut Express HD advertises is "Seamless iMovie Import":

"Seamless iMovie Import

Import iMovie projects complete with effects, transitions and audio levels, then enhance your project by choosing from hundreds of effects and transitions, or create composited video collages with multiple layers."

It just dawned on me, we can't use imported iMovie or Final Cut Express HD projects (ie, HDV) into FCP HD.

heath

I'd personally call it very odd for Apple to announce HDV support in their consumer editing applications before they announce it for FCP-HD, but there are rumors they'll add the latter fairly soon. Either way, it's old news compared to everything that's happening for HDV on PCs.

Regarding whether the Sony FX1 is a "pro" camera: I've seen several user reports indicating that it generates better output when downsampled to SD resolution than almost all SD cameras--and of course it blows them all away when viewed at full HD resolution on an HDTV. I don't know of a single person who has bought this camera for consumer purposes, but professional videographers are lining up in droves to buy it!

We can import via iMovie into the timeline and then export to that new special codec...right? Did you guys watch the Mac presentation with Steve Jobs? I think he said that Quicktime 7 will be in the new iLife in about a week.

So, it's my assumption that we can import via firewire into iMovie - then export it to whatever editable format it allows us to export. The DVCPro HD codec is going to be available in iMovie right? That's for 1080i and 720p HDV....so, for $79 we can get iLife on Jan. 22nd and be able to import via firewire HDV. It's basically like the Lumiere HD app, but with the added benefit that it's imported into the "world's easiest video editing app". (That's what Steve said...I tend to agree.)

The only thing that scares me a little bit? Mr. Joe and Jane Consumer get HDV before all professionals do....are we in the wrong business for making $$ now or what? We buy all this high-end crap and they're practically giving it away now! (software) It's scary to think that anyone that's buying a computer right now has a complete non-linear editing High Definition suite.

This doesn't work to well with most video production business plans. It's that whole "My Uncle Joe can shoot my wedding in HD for free" thing all over again....

But we'll have to convert it to something we can edit in Final Cut Pro HD, right?

heath

>>We buy all this high-end crap and they're practically giving it away now! (software) It's scary to think that anyone that's buying a computer right now has a complete non-linear editing High Definition suite.

This doesn't work to well with most video production business plans. It's that whole "My Uncle Joe can shoot my wedding in HD for free" thing all over again....>>

Christopher:

Imagine being a high-end post house owner who has invested hundreds of thousands in gear saying the same thing about Final Cut Pro a few years back...or a Betacam owner seeing his business undercut by a guy with a DV camera...

This has been a continuing trend for a while. And yet many of those folks who were "threatened" are still making their living; movies are still being made with Panavision, not Panasonics. I don't think the paradigm you suggested is going to happen overnight. It's going to be a heartbeat before HDV is fully supported by the "pro" apps.

Uncle Joe will keep offering to shoot weddings for free, with or without the extra few hundred lines of resolution, and he's still going to suck at it. Caveat emptor!

Murph,

If Uncle Joe shoots a wedding on DV or HDV, and he isn't a pro, it's gonna look bad regardless.

Also, maybe Apple's reasoning for the consumer release first was because the FX1 is a consumer camera. Maybe they'll have HDV support for the FCP HD soon, or maybe they'll have even more extensive support when the Z1 comes out, like real-time effects, etc.

Personally, I'd like to be able to capture, edit and export HDV footage right now on my FCP HD system. I have a significant amount of money invested in it, like all of us do.

heath

Jinx, Heath, you owe me a Coke.

You guys are right, of course! (edited for safey sake)

I guess I'm just a little shell-shocked that "HD" isn't common place yet in the living room, but it's going to be viewable, editable and exportable for free on every Mac that ships starting immediately. It's quite amazing that iMovie is now iMovie HD....really, think about it! I know non-pro users will suck at what they do, but even still this is quite amazing that they even get to enter the HD world for $499. (the cost of the new "Mini Mac" that includes the new iMovie HD suite)

Yeah, I'm definately shell-shocked because anyone that buys the FX1 can buy a complete HDV editing system (a rock solid Mac computer no less!) for $499. (mouse, keyboard and a cheap monitor for about $200 more - a grand total of $699) That sure is a killer deal for anyone on a tight budget. It's amazing!

On the way, Charles!

heath

I'd buy the bigger Mac mini for $599 and find a cheap LCD that supports HD resolutions (maybe $300 there).

I am starting to think more and more that Apple has something up their sleeve for when the Z1 comes out--"Full support for 720p and 1080i with special emphasis on the Sony Z1," is what I think Jobs will say. "You can't get that on Express HD or iMovie HD." Or maybe not. <g>

heath

I'm looking forward to see what Panasonic comes out with in the next year.

Things are moving incredibly fast.

I think you may be right because I've seen no mention anywhere in regards to the Z1...like it doesn't exist. The Sony president didn't mention it (but, did mention the FX1) when he talked about the broadcast market that Sony takes care of.

All signs point to a decent sized announcement for the "Pro" users. There is no way in a million years that Apple could include HDV abilities with this latest offering and exclude it from Pro users....at least for not longer than a couple weeks? It would be very strange, but the thing that makes this seem almost normal? They are aligning the products name-wise..meaning, "iMovie HD", "Final Cut Express HD" and "Final Cut Pro HD". If the marketing departments are behind this whole thing - it probably means we're already "in the fold" as far as they're concerned.

Hey Charles, thanks man! This is the first time I've mentioned it anywhere...maybe I should delete that part? Juuusssttt in case.......

<<<-- Originally posted by Kyle Harmon : iMovie will be part of the iLife '05 package and will ship on 1/22/05 for $79.

Final Cut Express HD will cost $299 or Final Cut Express version 1 or 2 users can upgrade for $99. It features HDV support and will also include LiveType and Soundtrack, and will Apple store is indicating 3-4 weeks on shipping. -->>>

Gah! well, then I'm off to eat my hat! (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&postid=261033#post261033) It's really good news I suppose but I hate being wrong!

<<<-- Apple has not announced any HDV upgrades for Final Cut Pro HD yet.

http://www.apple.com/finalcut/ -->>>

Can't be long now though...

It's funny those people saying they'd dumped all their macs to go over to PC, just a month or so's wait and they could saved a packet just by getting FCE-HD, at least until FCP updates.

My guess as to why FCP-HD doesn't yet support HDV would be around timecode issues. For pro work, batch catpure is essential, and I can see a lot of people planning a workflow of capturing in DV (to maximise realtime editing capabilities) before onlining with HDV.

You won't be able to capture in DV then online in HDV, though it may happen if that timecode issue is resolved. I don't want to shell out $300 for FCEHD, so I'll just buy iMovie HD for 10 bucks and call it a day.

heath

Heath, I don't specifically KNOW of any time code issues. However seeing as how much of FCP's funtionality is based around timecode (compared to FCE and iMovie which have NO TC functionality) I was just making an educated guess.

Does anyone know if there are specific problems in handling HDV timecode?

I'm interested to see if you can use Apple's DVCProHD codec with iMovie (which up till now, will only export a DV stream). You could then capture in iMovie, and export a DVCProHD file for FCP.

I don't think it's going to happen - iMovie HD will probably only deal with streams as well - but it would be nice work around until the update.

Dylan,

Check out our report on free-run timecode and the Z1 (http://hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/freerun.php) and the comparison chart (http://hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/compare.php) between the FX1 and the Z1. There are timecode issues which means with the FX1, for now, could only be done with capture now.

Joshua,

I don't believe you can export DVCPro HD from iMovie.

heath

<<<-- Joshua,

I don't believe you can export DVCPro HD from iMovie.

heath -->>>

I know you can't do it now. And I'm pretty sure it won't be a feature of iMovieHD - it was just a thought about a possible work around.

Joshua,

When you can find it, let us know! I know I'm interested! But I'd rather avoid doing more to edit, I like plug-and-play, and I'm okay with iMovie HD for a little while.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Dylan,

Check out our report on free-run timecode and the Z1 (http://hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/freerun.php) and the comparison chart (http://hdvinfo.net/articles/sonyhdrfx1/compare.php) between the FX1 and the Z1. There are timecode issues which means with the FX1, for now, could only be done with capture now. -->>>

Heath - I'm probably going blind or something (after marking so much student work) but I couldn't see anything on those pages that refer to timecode problems on the FX1. It seems to me that the FX1 has the same limitations as the VX1000 (no programmable TC. Drop Frame Only on NTSC etc) while the Z1 has what the PD150/170 has (programmable time code, user bits, TC regen, TC make etc).

I'm not sure what this has to do with the lack of a batch capture option. VX1000s could be used to batch capture with DV, I'm sure the FX1 be used for the DV batch capture, just not in HDV mode, and I have a feeling it's the same for the Z1.

If I'm not mistaken, you wouldn't be able to batch capture HD10/HD1/FX1 footage. Something about the timecode not going over the firewire cable, but again, I might be wrong here.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : If I'm not mistaken, you wouldn't be able to batch capture HD10/HD1/FX1 footage. Something about the timecode not going over the firewire cable, but again, I might be wrong here.

heath -->>>

When I control playback and capture of my HD10 footage with DVHSCap, I see some numbers that resemble timecode. As far as I'm concerned that is timecode. My guess is that timecode isn't part of the HDV spec, but timecode is written on the tapes anyhow for some good reason. It shouldn't be a huge feat of engineering to associate those timecode like numbers with the footage, but of course I/B/P frame issues probably get in the way.

Given that, and my experience with iMovie 2 and 3, I'm guessing iMovie 5 will cut out the first (for sure) and last (maybe) GOP as it captures HDV. The reason for this is to hide the inherent audio lag in new clips (clips as iMovie understands them - everything between a start-and-stop-record).