Anyone know more about this?

http://www.global-dvc.org/Sony%20HDV%20audio%20tests.htm

Dave

It doesn't surprise me. Do you ever remember Sony releasing a new camera that didn't have audio problems? Now the question is, since this is not a "PRO" camera (like the Z1 is supposed to be) are they going to fix any audio problems?
That is exactly why I wouldn't be so quick to jump on this band wagon. I only hope they decide to get rid of that stupid built in microphone on the Z1, what a waste.

Gentleman. This group of people have designed an addon box like the Beachtek that depends on the dc out of the Sony camera for power. It just so happens that the FX1 doesn't provide the same power output as the other Sony's. So------ That isn't a Sony problem is it ?? No, it means the design of their box doesn't work. I have a Sony FX1 and it works just fine. Mic input with DC blocking works and so does line in from my mixer.

Ron Evans

The issue is their spec says one thing, and the product does not meet their spec.

Guess I am not buying anything until the product meets their spec.

Dave

That 's your choice Dave. But do you know that they measured it correctly? Did you measure it? There are a lot of people trying desperately to find something wrong with the FX1. Most have never seen one. In desperation they are comparing it to cameras costing more than ten times as much. That really is grasping at straws. The FX1 is a great camera for what it is intended at a very reasonable price. It is a high end consumer camera and should be compared to cameras costing about the same. There just aren't any that compete at this price!!!! I am sure that in the coming year we will see some competition.

Ron Evans

The posting stated this.
"Sony Japan confirmed Sony Holland wrong specifications for DCout on FX1 and probably also for Z1."

Are you saying this is wrong? I just about got the vx1000 with the audio issue. I just about got the vx2000 with the audio issue.
So, you can see I am sold on Sony. But, I want to also be able to say I just about got the audio issue on I hope the Z1 if the price is 5K.

Dave

Dave I have no idea whether it is wrong or not. I just checked my manual and it also states the same 2.5 to 3.0v into 6.8kilohms just like the rest of my Sony cameras. It is however a DC voltage supply rather than any audio problem. It is mainly intended to supply voltage to Sony's condenser mics. The FX1 uses a lot of power and I am sure the Sony engineers cut back every power use possible as long as all their equipment worked!!! The technical writers probably just copied the specs from the current cameras without checking!!! As I said earlier mine works just fine with both mic and line input.

Ron Evans

So do you believe Sony designed a product what will not work with some of their mics? If all the cameras have the same spec, are you saying they no longer supporting this?

Again, all I am saying is the spec says one thing, and the product does not meet it. No matter what this is, are you saying this is okay to ignore? This would not be the quality I expect from Sony, which is why I purchase their products.

So, until Sony says something official, we have a product which does not meet one of their published spec. I do not see how this can not be an issue. It may not impact all, but, impacting any I think for the price of these cameras must be fixed.

Dave

Well if this is a real issue then there's nothing wrong with pointing it out. But I really think it says more about being an early adopter of a new camera design than anything else. The first people who buy a camera are destined to find some quirks. This benefits those who purchase later; even if the problems aren't fixed at least they are documented so we can find work-arounds and make informed purchasing decisions.

Dave I just measured my FX1 and confirmed that the output is about 2v. My meters are not that accurate and I have no idea what impedence is used. One said 1.96v the other 2.0v. I only have access to one Sony mic and it works fine. I expect that all the Sony mics will work since the electret only needs a small voltage, the performance, dynamic range may be affected marginally. My TRV50 mic dc output ( which is also spec'd at 2.5 to 3v is in fact 2.14v and again 2v measured with the same two meters. My only concern at the moment is that these are spec'd with 6.8kohm impedance and I do not have the neccessary equipment to provide this precise load to the connector across which to measure the voltage. I expect that the FX1 output may be no different to the existing batch of Sony's . All voltages may be load dependent so unless the correct load is applied the measurement will not be accurate. For me this voltage issue is irrelevant and for anyone designing equipment to work with the FX1 will indeed to check this out to ensure compliance just as these group of people are doing.

Ron Evans

Thanks Ron. Still am looking forward to Sony answering this question. But, in the past when folks found the audio issues, I do not ever remember Sony admitting to it, at least on the vx1000. They just quietly changed the serial numbers.

Again, the person in the link has proven his stuff does not work, so again, am glad the Z1 is not out yet since it allows me to have others do what, if any, debugging has to be done. :o)

Dave

Folks,


Please forget Sony's or any other video camera mic phantom voltage and use a proper preamp/mixer to go into it. At least that way you will be feeding an externally controllable signal into the usually mediocre camera preamps.

Even more: if you want quality audio, particularly if you do dialogue or music, implement double-system sound.

The audio end in any of these cameras was designed for news, not for serious sound quality. Even those costing tens of thousands.

IMO this discussion seems pointless. There was only one external preamp, the Glensound GSTN-1, that did proper use of voltage available on some Sony cameras as power. But they also demanded that you modified your DV camera (BBC did it). Forget about the phantom power available at the mic input: no quality mic will feed from it.


Carlos

Hey Carlos,

Do you think a Beachtek DXA-8 would do the trick?
Also, there is the problem with the FX1 that the audio is compressed. But I guess for dialogue it would suffice, and you won't have to go through the pain of syncing everything.

Steven

Carlos, the issue is no longer about the audio, but about sony having a spec on the camera that someone states is not being met. Is there any other specs they have that they do not meet that someone has not found yet?

Why do so many seem to be willing to say it is okay for sony to publish a spec, and looks like they may not meet it. Again, whether it is a audio issue, or what ever, its the point they are not selling what one has purchased by what they have written.

Dave

Would it be okay to buy a car that was "speced" to go 80 mph, and only go 65?

<<<-- Originally posted by Dave Campbell :Would it be okay to buy a car that was "speced" to go 80 mph, and only go 65? -->>>

I think a more appropriate analogy would be buying a car with a cup holder that was spec'ed at 3" diameter but actually measured 2.75". It isn't going to make a lot of difference unless you have an expensive 3" coffee cup.

I suspect that others feel as I do, that we're beating a dead horse here...

As far as I'm concerned this is a stillborn horse, Boyd.

<< Again, all I am saying is the spec says one thing, and the product does not meet it. >>

Ahem, the product allegedly does not meet it.

Don't believe everything you read on the internet! I think I should put this in big, bold letters on my site. And as much respect as I have for Jan van der Meer (having met him personally and knowing him for many years), I would still rather wait for another technical conclusion to echo his from here in the States. And that has not happened yet.

Carlos Martinez has the best take on this. And I understand that for some folks, such a rumor may be a deal-breaker which would stop them from buying a camera. That's certainly one's own prerogative. But be advised that we do not condone individual crusades in this community. If there really is a problem, no doubt Sony will fix it (quietly as they have always done). What you have to ask yourself is, whether or not the camera's performance is adequate for what you're doing right now.

I respect you may think its no big deal, but, if I paid for a 3 inch cup, and got a 2.75, it does not matter if I do not think I need the 3 inch today, I paid for 3 and would not want to eliminate my need in the future for what I paid for.

I sure am surprised that it seems people are just, for some reason, defending Sony. What if this same issue was another mfg? Again, I love, and have the sony products. But, as an engineer working with customers all day long, trying to tell them its okay to not get what they have paid for, no matter if they may never use the feature, is something my customers do not let me get away with.

Dave

<<<-- Originally posted by Steven Fokkinga : Hey Carlos,

Do you think a Beachtek DXA-8 would do the trick?
Also, there is the problem with the FX1 that the audio is compressed. But I guess for dialogue it would suffice, and you won't have to go through the pain of syncing everything.

-->>>

Hi Steven,

The DXA8 certainly would do it.

Don't worry about the audio being MPEG-2 compressed, as it won't impair your sound. Think of it as if it is linear.

Just be careful with your levels: don't let them peak beyond the penualtimate bar on the FX1.

My advice has always been to do principal audio in MD, also sending the same signal to the video camera as a backup.

I know it's more complicated and will demand more editing hours, but the results are so much better!

Let's face it: we are going the HDV way because we want more quality, and I think using your camcorder audio as you sound-track is a compromise. I think it's not having the same attitude with your audio as you are having with your image. And that would be valid even if you were recording video in a CineAlta and your audio on their audio tracks.


Carlos

Please remember the FX1 and Z1 have the same picture quality, but the FX1 is a consumer camera, albeit a powerful one. The audio gets put onto both channels regardless of onboard mic or an adaptor going in (like BeachTek, etc.). And though you can control the audio, there is a limiter of some sort which keeps loud audio from going loud, which I'm not a fan of. And that's built into the FX1, but I'd have no problems doing a film and recording the audio to DAT.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : The audio gets put onto both channels regardless of onboard mic or an adaptor going in (like BeachTek, etc.). And though you can control the audio, there is a limiter of some sort which keeps loud audio from going loud, which I'm not a fan of. And that's built into the FX1, but I'd have no problems doing a film and recording the audio to DAT.
-->>>

By both channels I don't know if you mean that the SAME audio goes into both channels, because that is not the case. But it doesn't allow you independent volume setting for each channel, as the Z1 apparently allows. That's easily avoided by using an external mixer/preamp, of course.

When you are in MANUAL there is not limiter as far as I know. But when AGC is on, one channel level may vary if the other channel is clipping.

Sony is quite unusual (in the bad sense) when they design the audio stages in their equipments. Their portable MD recorders do not let you adjust levels when you start recording, which you can bypass using external equipment. But why don't they do it properly?...


Carlos

AGC, that's it. Can you turn it off? We didn't see anything that would allow us to.

Yes, same audio goes on both channels.

heath

Heath on the back left side of the FX1 is a little panel. When you open this there is a switch to turn the inputs to manual and a small dial to set level. The clear panel on the side lets you see how the switch is set and where the control dial is set. The channels are true stereo but the level control is common, that is, no balance or individual channel control( something the Z1 will provide). Using an external mixer the controls can be set so that the external mixer level meters can be used in a more useful way. Use a test generator on the mixer, display audio level on the FX1 meters and set levels to your desire. With the control switched to auto there is standard AGC, with the control set to manual I believe there is an absolute limiter to stop unwelcome digital overload noise if it occurs much like the MD's have but unlike a lot of DAT's which will overload and produce a very unpleasant digital noise. I use a Berhinger MXB1002 mixer since most all my shoots are on a tripod with all sorts of other gear a small mixer is no problem. There are other mixers in this class and have the advantage of providing a lot of inputs to mix and feed to the camera.

Ron Evans

Ron,

Thanks for the heads up! I can't believe I didn't see it!

heath