So I should be able to blend footage from the Optura Pi in with XL1 footage in frame movie mode and it not be obviously different?

Sorry, I confused the Optura with the ZR's I've had. In well lit scenes the Optura image holds up very well to the XL1. In low light the noise was more noticeable in the Optura. Canon's site used to have footage of a program called Fooling Hitler or something to that effect. The Optura and the XL1 were both used in the production of the program. It wasn't noticeable where the Optura footage was used.

Jeff

Ok, give me the rundown on the Sony gv-d1000, d900 and d300...somebody...please? thinking about getting one for rough edit

They all use camcorder tape transports. The 900 has a flip-up LCD screen and the 300 doesn't. The 1000 is a 900 with the a Memory Stick and USB features.

These are neat and handy little units, but no different than using a 1-chip DV camcorder for the same purpose, as a small portable deck.

I have the used the 300 model for the past 2 years. Flawless operation. While it is "just" a camcorder tape transport, I find it to be significantly more responsive (faster) during editing/capture than my gl1/xl1s.

maybe it would be better choice to get DSR-11 from professional side. We have sold 2 pcs DSR-V10P (DVCAM analogue to d900) to our customers and both are problematic; and around 10pcs DSR-11, no problems so far. DSR-11 can write in both DV and DVCAM format, even in PAL if you wish. It also handles both large and small size cassetes. Price here is cheaper than for DSR-V10P (not sure what is name of this piece in US)

Margus

Margus, can you tell us about your business? Thanks,

hi Chris,
my last mail was lost in internet space, i'll write it again
i work in small 3-person company. We are selling professional video stuff. I do also occasionally projects of editing suites and smaller studios. Have some knowledge about Sony ES-3 and FAST/Liquid Purple NLE-s, DVCAM series cameras and VTR-s. Have been working as a news editor in one local TV station back in '93-'95.

regards, Margus

I am looking for an inexpensive MiniDV camcorder (in the $400-$550 range) to use as a play deck. There are several models available with IEEE1394 (eg JVC GRDVL 120 and 320; Pana PVDV 51, 52; Canon ZR40, etc). The camcorder will have to stand up to lots of rewind, fast forward, and constant opening and closing of the tape door. I would be interested to know if anyone has had any mechanical problems with specific low-end units. I have been using a Canon ZR-10 for two years, but it's about time to retire it.

Thanks for the input,

Steve Siegel

This is a topic that has frequently been discussed so I think you'll find at least some ideas by just looking for "deck" with the Search function.

My opinion, fwiw, is that this is a bad strategy both economically and technically. Camera transports are not designed to "... stand up to lots of rewind, fast forward, and constant opening and closing of the tape door". They are also much slower at cueing than deck transports. Put simply, consumer camera transports are just not designed to withstand that level of use. Spending, say, $550 every year or two for a "bad deck" consumer cam just doesn't add up when for around $900-$1000 you can have a real deck that will probably last for many years.

Certainly, I realize that you may be under tight budgetary constraints. But the consumer-camera-as-editing-deck will cost you more and give you less.

Just my opinion, Steve.

Chris, you mentioned a 1 chip DV cam as a portable deck. Can you suggest a specific make a model? Will I lose any pic quality by capturing from that unit as compared to my XL1? How about the quality in recording a final edit to that "deck" as opposed to the XL1?

Thanks in advance.

Chris, you mentioned a 1 chip DV cam as a portable deck. Can you suggest a specific make a model? Will I lose any pic quality by capturing from that unit as compared to my XL1? How about the quality in recording a final edit to that "deck" as opposed to the XL1?

Thanks in advance.

(I hit the new thread button so ignore the new thread post) :(

Howdy from MacWorld,

<< Can you suggest a specific make a model? >>

Canon ZR40 for $600.

<< Will I lose any pic quality by capturing from that unit as compared to my XL1? >>

When used as a deck, no; not at all.

<< How about the quality in recording a final edit to that "deck" as opposed to the XL1? >>

No difference. Hope this helps,

Chris, I'm just wondering what criteria you choose a ZR40 by?
I'm not judging your choice, I'm just curious, why it?

Dylan,

It's the least expensive 1-chipper Canon makes. Since it's the same manufacturer as the XL1, there should be no problems with tape playback. Hope this helps,

Fair enough! :)

I've been trying to find an Optura Pi locally, but having no luck. There are usualy one or two on Ebay, but I hate buying cameras from there.
And a new ZR40 seems to be cheaper than what a used Optura Pi sells for on Ebay too.
If I get a ZR40, it obviously won't match in Frame Movie Mode, but how close will the picture be in regular mode?

Thanks

Ok, a bit off topic here but here goes...

I am seriously contemplating getting a Canon GL2... my question is as follows: If I don't want to drop the bucks for a seperate deck just yet, any reason why I couldn't use my Sony TRV17 camcorder as a capture deck? I know it'll beat the heck out of it but since I have an extended warranty, I figured why not.

So my question is more towards would it work and produce good results vs. is it bad for the TRV17...

thanks!

As long as the TRV-17 is MiniDV it should work OK. A number of folks have used a Canon ZR-10 for playback. Just avoid LP tape speed shooting. Good idea to run a quick test before you rely on it.

Ok, thanks for the prompt reply.

What a great forum...hello, this is my first post.

I'm trying to decide which hi-end DV deck to buy. So far, I've narrowed down the choices to Sony DSR-1500, DSR-1500A, DSR-1800 and Panasonic AJ-D455. Does anyone have any experiences, either negative or positive, with any of these decks. I'm looking for a versatile deck for my MC9000 that can handle various formats (but mostly mini-DVCAM, standard DVCAM, and standard DVCPRO) for both offline and online purposes.

Have you checked into the Panasonic AG-DV2000. This deck accommodates mini & full size DV. I have used this for two years now for the master deck in the truck and for loading the NLE with no problems.

Thanks for the suggestion, James. Unfortunately, I need to play back DVCAM, component and SDI in/out, and a built-in TBC, none of which DV2000 offers. I've the deck before, though, and it's great for the price.

Do you really need DVCPRO? I don't own the Sony DSR-1800, but I've used them in clients edit suites. The only problem was with footage on DVCPRO. The unit had a firewire board and couldn't get DVCPRO to work thru the board. I later found out that it just won't output DVCPRO thru the board. Very frustrating but now I know. The Dynamic Motion Control was pretty useless. The speed is only +/- .5x I'm used to Betacams with +2x or 3x and -1x. So DMC was not very usefull either. They run about $7,000 (before optional boards) and I think there might still be a rebate on them. The Panasonic AJ-D455 has useable slow motion speeds and is about the same or a little less money. I've not used that model, but similar Panasonics and I like the way they edit. Very nice feel to them. Sony is kind of noisy in my opinion. Noiser than similar Panasonics.

Jeff

Thanks for the info, Jeff. I guess there were three main reasons why I was leaning toward Sony DSR-1800 rather than Panasonic AJ-D455. One, almost all of the footage will be on mini-DVCAM (shot on PD150). If I get footage that I need to transfer, I was thinking of using standard DVCAM format. And two, DSR-1800 takes mini tapes w/o an adaptor (unlike the AJ-D455). Three, AJ-D455 doesn't have a jog shuttle. And if you need to add the optional board for SDI in/out, then the price difference between the 2 decks (about $500) disappears.

On the other hand, I completely agree with you about "the feel" of the Panasonic deck being better than the Sonys. And AJ-D455, with the optional firewire board, will support DVCAM (while, as you pointed out, Sony DSR-1800 doesn't support DVCPRO via firewire). And if the Panasonic seamless supports mini- and standard DVCAM format, I guess that's a big plus. What's your exerience on this last issue?

Mini DV tapes must be 60 minute or less and LP is not an option. An adapter is needed to record and playback mini DV. If i remember on adapter won't work for recording and one will, but check that. It will playback and record to DVCPro tapes M and L without an adapter. It plays back mini and standard DVCAM tapes. The minis would of course need an adapter. One adapter for playback does come with the unit.

But if the majority of your work is on DVCAM I think you should get the Sony. It will handle that format the format better. Then avoid DVCPRO with the Sony. If your forced to deal with it rent a DVCPRO deck and dub the tapes to DVCAM.

Jeff

Don't worry, I've searched for every post I could find on the topic, so I don't think I'm repeating any questions that have been asked very often. (I'm not going to ask whether to buy a deck or a cheap 2nd camera!)

However, I am trying to make that decision - I know all the arguments on both sides, but I've got some considerations personally that I need help with if you don't mind...

IF I go the 2nd camera route (which I may not), I'm not going to get the cheapest thing out there - I'd proabably jumping up to the low $1000+ range. Here are my questions:

1) After looking some at the Canon Optura/Elura and the Sony PC's (like all the "vertical" designed cams), I'm having trouble figuring out if any of the cameras will shoot both audio channels (simultaneously). Also, will some/all of them playback from either audio channel?

2) As a related question, the issue I'm trying to solve is I often have split-audio track tapes that I need to make dups of. Since I don't think my NLE (Pro-One) will output to two separate channels, I need a "deck/camera" that will allow me to make dups. Preferrably, I could just firewire my XL1s to whatever deck/camera I get to make the dup, but I've never heard that this is possible. My guess is I could send video/audio1 over firewire and audio2 over analog simulateously. Does anyone know if I can do this (or another way to accomplish this?) If so, do any of these cameras have analog inputs/outputs?

3) Finally, I know for shooting purposes, if I try to match footage from the XL1 to any 1-chip, it's not going to match extremely well, so I'm not convinced I need to get a Canon from that standpoint, but should I expect that using a Sony (camera) for playback/output would cause compatability problems with stuff shot on the XL1s? (Can I shoot on the Canon, and capture on the Sony, or output to the Sony, then use in the Canon, etc.... I use all Panasonic PQ tapes if it matters...)

Sorry it's so long - thanks for the help!!

tap, tap... is this thing on?

:-)

I'm not sure what you mean by both channels simultaniously. Do you mean left and right channel? Do you mean 12 bit and 16 bit at the same time? The mini DV spec. calls for two channels of 16 bit audio or 4 channels of 12 bit audio. You cannot record two 16 bit channels and two 12 bit channels.

What do you mean by split audio track tapes? If your talking 4 channel ouput most NLE's do not suport it. You need to mix down to two channels before output. Some cameras support 4 channel mixing of output, but your better off do the mix to two channels in your NLE (more control).

Search the forum for Canon Optura Pi. It very closely matches the XL1. It is out of production but they show up here on the classifieds and on ebay fairly often. I used to own one and I used it's footage mixed with the XL1 on several occasions and it was very hard to tell which was which. The Optura was used in a doc. about Hitler and some footage I saw was excellant. Mixing brands also present a little more of a compatability problem. Canon tapes don't play back as well in Sony and vice versa.

Jeff

The question confuses me also. All DV camcorders are capable of two channels of audio. The XL1/XL1S will handle four channels (as two stereo pairs). Some NLE systems will record all four at once; some won't.

There's no issue at all regarding the moving of two channels of audio to duplication decks. You can feed this stereo pair over FireWire and analog output simultaneously. However, regarding four channels of audio (two stereo pairs), I recommend mixing them down to two channels in post. Most duplication decks, and most of your paying customers, will only have the ability to play back two channels anyway.

If your primary camera is a Canon, it would be a good idea for your secondary one to be a Canon as well. As Jeff mentions, the Optura Pi, about $900 if you can one, is the best one-CCD camcorder you could hope to have for approximating the look of the XL1 (due to the Optura's RGB color filter).

Not sure if this is of any help, but hope so. Good luck,

Sorry for the confusion! Let me see if I can clarify a little...

1) I am indeed talking about shooting all four channels on the XL1s. When I said two channels, I meant two "tracks". The reason I often need to keep all these channels seperate and not "mix them down" to 2 channels in post, is that clients that I do outsource shooting for often want the flexibility to have all four channels of the audio available to them, instead of having to rely on my mix. Since I try to keep a copy of everything I shoot, I would also like my copy to maintain all four separate channels, for the same flexbility reasons if I need to revisit the footage later.

Based on what I see about all 1-chip cameras, the only way I can transfer my channels 3&4 (to the new tape on whatever 1-chip playback device I use) is to use the audio-dub feature (analog). I know the audio (3&4) won't match up perfectly with the video, but if I ever need to use it again, I can fix that in post. I'm assuming the ability to capture to post from channels 3&4 is a fuction of my NLE, and not related to the camera, or is that incorrect?

Other than using a camera, will any "real" decks allow me to record audio to channels 3&4? None of the materials I've found online are very specific. (i'm talking about the dsr-11, sony walkman 1000, panasonic 1000/2000, etc).

2) Also, you mention the Optura Pi. What about the Elura 2/2mc? I saw that it also has the RGB color filter and is a little less expensive. However, I don't know if the "Progressive Scan CCD" it uses is a good thing or a bad thing since there's no option to ever shoot interlaced. Have you heard anything about this camera?

Thanks so much! Sorry again for the confusion - I appreciate your help!

Matt

Importing 12bit, 4 channel audio into NLE's is dependent on the brand. Some only support 2 channel capture, they just don't recognize channel 3 and 4 on the firewire. In that you need to capture 3 and 4 analog. Some NLE's support channel 3 and 4 capture, but require two passes, so the capture takes twice as long but it's in sync.

If your looking for a 1 chip camera that matches (closest) the XL1 the Optura Pi is it. Anything else will not match as well. Tapes also interchange fine. Off hand I don't know about the machines you mention. I doubt the Walkman supports 4 channel. Several higher end decks support ($4,000 and up) support 4 channel dubbing between tapes. You might want to repost just that question, because I know there are some DSR-11 users, as well as Panasonic users.

Jeff

In response to the question raised about playing back Canon shot tapes in Sony equipment raised at the top of this thread, I've had some issues playing stuff shot on the XL1 back in my Sony VX-DHR1000 DV VTR (the DV version of the DSR30 deck, came out several years ago)....

I sometimes (more frequently than I would care to admit) get drop-out style artifacts when trying to capture to my NLE or trying to output to my duplication rack... I'm fairly confident that it is a compatibility issue instead of strictly a tape speed issue as my deck WILL spool up to speed to playback DVCam material (which of course means the tape moves 50% faster across the heads), which was never a posted capability of the DHR1000...

The nice thing however is that the data track seems to come over intact if you ever use that...

Good shooting

I am interested in info(cost,vendors, etc) on decks that allow for playback of miniDV videotape. I would prefer to use a deck rather than my Xl1, and also because it would be nice to have a deck to deck option for creating protection masters, etc. Also, are there mini DV playback decks that are firewire-ready for capturing to my non-linear program?

All DV decks are FireWire-ready by definition.

What's your budget? DV decks run anywhere from $900 to more than $30,000.

I was interested as well, and decided since I did not need or want the DV deck on my entertainment system much, but rather on my computer to capture and edit I opted to get a ZR45MC Cam as my "deck". This way I can beat it up, and still have a slum around cam and being a Cancon I get full compatability with my GL2 tapes. And it was half the cost of a deck. And it is portable so when I want to show tapes somewhere I just grab the ZR45 and off I go. Ordered the Lenmar LIC-535 for over 8 hours of battery use. SO if I get a couple of years out of it then I toss it if it acts up and go for whatever is out then. JVC has a DV - SVHS combo deck, but it runs over $1000 and I don't know if it has firewire.

Thanks for the info...I'm not looking for extremely sophisticated hardware, rather a reliable deck for capturing footage to my drives, or for playback to a monitor. I'm not looking to drop 30K, minimal investment would suffice.
Tim

Okay, let's start to narrow it down then...

Do you need Mini-DV only, or will you require a deck that can handle the larger full-size DV cassettes? In other words, with Mini DV, you're looking at 80 minute run times (two hours in LP mode); or more than four hours on a deck that accepts Mini DV as well as the full-size DV casettes.

At just under $2,000 the Panasonic AG-DV2000 is the least expensive full-size DV deck available.

For now, miniDV only...basically, a deck for playback to monitor and for digitizing. Ideally, a deck that both plays AND records would be nice, so that I may export from computer a finished piece to it, mastering back to miniDV. Prices??...
Tim

All DV decks play and record.

Consider the Panasonic AG-DV1000:

http://www.panasonic.com/PBDS/subcat/Products/vtrs_vcrs/f_ag-dv1000.html

Street price is about $1000. The only other options less expensive than this are two portable Sony "walkman" style DV decks, one without an LCD screen appx. $600, the other with an LCD screen appx. $900. Hope this helps,

Chris---Thanks, your info is most helpful.
Tim

I would certainly recommend the Pana DV1000. I've recently purchased one and it's truly a commercial deck, with a heavy duty transport. The Sony Walkman style decks are consumer grade camera transports and the case is plastic (puffed plastic (tm)). The Sony higher end stuff is well built but it's a lot more money.

This is a can link but allthe info is the same except the price. http://www.panasonic.ca/English/Broadcast/broadcast/dvformat/ag_dv1000p.html

what would you guys suggest for a dv/minidv deck? whats the cheapest and whats the best?

There is no such thing as a "cheap" full-size DV / MiniDV deck.

The least expensive option I know of is a Sony unit which is a dual deck, with Super VHS on one side and full-size DV on the other. This is the WV-DR7 and it is not sold outside of Japan, but Tim Selander, a member here, can export one to you if you're interested. See http://www.tokyonics.com/ for details.

Outside of that, consider the Panasonic AG-DV2000, which accepts both full size and MiniDV cassettes, for about $2000. JVC will (finally) have a full-size DV deck out soon but I don't think it's available just yet. Hope this helps,

Hey Tim, I am selling my almost new AG-DV 1000. A great deck, it has roughly four hours on the heads. I bought it in july of this year. It is clean and has a flawless finish still.
I am asking $700. BH Photo asks $919 new.

Thanks Chet....very interested. Re-contact me at tftonner@hotmail.com to discuss details.
Thanks,
Tim Tonner

I am producing a DVD for Gallery exhibition and limited release. Most of the imagery is being shot with a GL2. I am now looking for a unit to capture and view material on and I am wondering whether to rent a higher end deck, buy something like the sony video walkman deck or simply buy another basic camera (like the Elura for instance) to take the beating I don't want my GL2 to take...Money is an issue. I would appreciate ANY ideas or comments on this dilemma...

Hello David,

Welcome to DVinfo.net!

If money is an issue, you might want to consider a used DV camera. It is the least expensive way to view and capture your footage. There have been several threads on here that have talked about this topic.

The Elura that you mentioned is camera worth looking for. If you do go the second camera route, it is also nice to have a second rig available for B-Roll shots.

Thanks Paul,

I have found some information on other threads which as helped me hash out a couple of things. One of my big considerations is whether there might be quality loss using a cheaper camera-Do you know if there is a significant difference between the heads on the Elura and the heads on a GL2? Would there be a significant difference between the heads on the Elura and one of the Sony Video Walkmans?

<<<-- Originally posted by David Crompton : Thanks Paul,

I have found some information on other threads which as helped me hash out a couple of things. One of my big considerations is whether there might be quality loss using a cheaper camera-Do you know if there is a significant difference between the heads on the Elura and the heads on a GL2? Would there be a significant difference between the heads on the Elura and one of the Sony Video Walkmans? -->>>

Your welcome David. From what I understand, there should not be a loss of quality if you used a Elura or less expensive camera.

Regarding the difference between heads on an Elura vs. a Sony Video Walkman, I am really not sure.

I am sure that somebody will jump in and help answer this question.

Hi David,
Unlike analog formats, dv is dv. That is, it's basically a bitstream much like a file on your computer. So faithful reproduction and transfer diferences aren't an issue regardless of what you use.

Since it looks as if you've already done some research into the issue here there's probably little else I can add. I'm a strong advocate for getting an inexpensive deck such as the Panasonic AG-DV1000 or 2000. (Much) Better transport performance during capture, designed for the task, etc. Also, camera transports just aren't designed for heavy capture duty. But if you're only planning to transfer, say, a tape a week you might as well just use your camera.