What are your thoughts?

I am at present trying to decide on a camera to buy.

I live in the UK and I need a camera asap.

I have been looking at both the Canon XL2 and the Sony FX1.

Where my problems lies is should I go ahead and buy the Canon of SD or take a step forward to HDV?

Is HDV quality at present good enough to justify buying the Song FX1?

thanks
A

If you clients can be temped by HD, or they want to future proof content you shoot today, then HDV is an excellent solution (the quality is here.) If your business will not be implacted by arrival HD-DVD/BluRay in the next 18 months then an SD camera will be OK. So much depends on the market you are in.

Antony,
I think a lot depends on what you are going to use the camera for.
I've considered both cameras, but I'm starting to come down in favour of the the FX1 for purely pragmatic reasons.
I've no interest in "film" look or entering Film Festivals for that matter.
I shoot mainly for broadcast and since most of the other cameras in the chain are Sony, then it makes sense to choose Sony.
Also, I have to consider servicing. We have a very good Sony Broadcast equipment supplier in Cardiff - Stylus-Technic - so I know that at the first sign of any trouble I can get the camera to them and get a replacement while mine is being serviced
The BBC in Wales are certainly interested in using them for DV shooting instead of the ubiquitous PD150/170.
If you only used it for straight DV shooting in 16:9, you'd be getting great images -as good as and cheaper than the XL2.
Of course, then you wouldn't get interchangeable lenses etc etc -
It's not the best of times to make such a decision is it ...
One almost needs to wait six months and see what the other big names are going to come up with!

Robin

If your needs are that you need to shoot high-def today, then the FX1 is the only (and obvious) choice. And it is a good choice.

However, since you live in the UK, you should watch the EBU for their recommendation about European HDTV broadcast standards. Unlike the US, where we embraced both 720p and 1080i, apparently Europe is going to choose one or the other. And I guess at IBC they leaked that the EBU was endorsing 720/50P instead of 1080/50i. Which made Sony furious, because it would effectively orphan their HDV lineup (unless you want to cross-convert). So I guess the EBU retracted their statement... not too sure on all the facts... but it looks like the EBU is definitely leaning towards 720/50p.

Plus, there's the unknown quantity, Panasonic, who look for all the world poised to announce a DVCPRO-HD solution. DVCPRO-HD is a far superior format to HDV, offering 4x the bandwidth (100mbps instead of 25mbps), frame-discrete compression instead of 15-frame GOP's (no 15-frame dropouts on DVCPRO-HD!), 8 channels of uncompressed audio instead of two channels of compressed audio, 4:2:2 color sampling instead of 4:2:0, and Panasonic's already lined up both FCP-HD and Avid Express as editing solutions that natively support DVCPRO-HD. But when will Panasonic release something? Or even announce it? That's the wild card that nobody knows.

So if you have to buy now, you have no choice, you must go FX1/HDV. But if you don't have to buy now, what do you have to lose by waiting? Sure seems that for anyone who can afford to wait, the EBU and DVCPRO-HD announcements would make it worth waiting.

thank you for your comments

A

Thanks Barry,
I wasn't aware of the EBU question!

Robin

The other thing worth considering is that you need a computer than can handle HDV so that wud need upgrading 2?

Not necessarily -- depends on your computer. There are some users getting satisfactory performance using proxy codecs like CineForm on a reasonably fast Pentium IV, I believe Cineform specifies a hyperthreaded 2.8GHz.

If you have a PC in that class, you can probably edit HDV satisfactorily today. If your PC isn't that strong, then yes you'd probably need to upgrade.

And if you don't want to use your expensive HD camera as an editing deck, how do you get from camera to PC?

Bob, HDV from the camcorder into a PC or Mac is through FireWire.

I know that Chris. Question is what firewire enabled device do you use as an editing deck. I'm assuming that an DV deck like the Sony DSR11 or any DV camcorder won't transfer HD. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You're not wrong, of course; a DV deck can't handle HDV. I guess the real question is, after you've edited your HDV piece in the computer, what sort of distribution medium do you need. Maybe you won't always be going back to HDV. If you want to go back to HDV in order to archive the final edited master, I personally don't think there's anything wrong with using an HDV camcorder as an HDV deck on an occasional basis. If going back to HDV is something you're going to be doing on a frequent basis, then you might want to consider an HDV deck, such as the Sony HVR-M10U.

Also I don't see a problem with using the camcorder to play HDV for capturing raw video into an editing system. If that's going to be a big deal, why not bypass tape completely and record to a portable firewire hard drive during the aquisition process. Focus Enhancements has already announced their intention to support HDV capture for their FireStore product line.

Chris, where did you see the comment from focus?
Will it be a new product, or can their existing stuff have a firmware
upgrade?

Thanks

Dave

Looks like one price I found for the HVR-M10U VTR is $3,599.00. Coming from the wedding industry, my concern is that the conversion to HDV cannot be supported for some time based on the prices we're seeing, not to mention all the missing pieces. If you're currently running a P3 PC w/Premiere 6x, you're talking about upwards of $20,000 in new gear, hardware and software.

Some people talk about future proofing by using an FX1 for SD movies now and using the tape resource for HD production later. I don't buy that since I can't see clients paying for 2 edits.

I recently decided to buy 2 PD-170s and will re-visit HDV in late 2006. Rather be on the leading, not bleeding edge.
Bob

I always try to keep this question in my mind: If I could buy a camera, any camera right now - which one would it be? In my line of work (government), I never know when money will become available. Sometimes I need to put together a quote in the same day in order to catch year-end money before its gone.

If I had to buy a camera today, it would be the FX1. If I could wait until the Feb.-April timeline, it would be the Z1. Even if I had $30,000US, I would buy 2 and all the accessories I could muster, and almost certainly the edit deck.

Having HD resolutions at a DV price and form factor is simply too much of a reason to look at any other camera in this price range, IMO. Your footage is more future-proofed being HD. You can offer an advanced service to clients. You can blow-up and reframe your footage at SD resolutions without sacrificing quality. You can split the footage into fields and have 60fps shooting in SD, again without taking a quality hit. What's not to like about this camera? I just don't see the XL2 as being anything more than a stopgap measure, perhaps for a year or 3. You could very well be shooting with the FX1 for the next 5 or 6 years.

FWIW, my last 2 "buy it today" cameras were the DVX-100a and the PD-150. I also flirted with the HD-10 until I discovered the complete lack of manual control. I just point this out to show that I'm brand-agnostic. If the XL2 had been HDV, it would be in close competition for #1. One of my current cameras is a big DSR-300 DVCam, with a really, really good Canon glass. I would still pick the FX1.

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Harotunian :
Some people talk about future proofing by using an FX1 for SD movies now and using the tape resource for HD production later. I don't buy that since I can't see clients paying for 2 edits.

Of course not, you don't do 2 edits.. you edit in HD and archive it. From your HD edit, you create a widescreen DVD for viewing today.

Absolutely right, Mike -- when Sony announced the Z1U, that's exactly the workflow they proposed for those who need to transition from SD to HDV.

I would really be intrested in the Z1U but mostly because of it's ability to shoot both NTSC and PAL and do it in native 16:9. I don't know where the whole HDV thing is going yet but that would not be my primary reason for purchasing this camera which is why the FX1 holds NO interest for me. I think it's still a little early.

"Of course not, you don't do 2 edits.. you edit in HD and archive it. From your HD edit, you create a widescreen DVD for viewing today."

Thanks, that was a piece of info I was missing. Still a bit foggy on how this will all fit together. So I assume then that you can edit in HD but still deliver an SD DVD. Considering Premiere for example, you'd need software upgrades to the presets for HD capture and mpeg exports?
Bob

<< Considering Premiere for example, you'd need software
upgrades to the presets for HD capture and mpeg exports? >>

Well, you'll need the Aspect HD accelerator from CineForm, but you're in the right place for that: see our dedicated CineForm forum (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=76), and their CTO, David Newman, is one of our regular members here.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dave Campbell : Chris, where did you see the comment from focus?
Will it be a new product, or can their existing stuff have a firmware
upgrade? -->>>

Dave: the last news on this still is in the following thread:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=24677

Which is a bit old. You can start a new thread in that forum if you
want or contact them directly, ofcourse.

Thanks, started a new thread.

Dave