As many of you may have seen, Canon has officially released the 7D - with full native 24p and 60p, which *should* mean overclocking capability, although I haven't seen any footage to that effect yet. 5D users are justifiably upset over all these new features in a cam that costs $1000 less than the 5D. People are calling Canon customer service and asking politely for a firmware update that will bring the 5D back up ahead of the 7D when it comes to these features.

I'm in a unique position because I *just* received my 5D. I can actually return it and order a 7D if it seems like that is the way to go. I'm not sure what I'm going to do yet. The full frame sensor on the 5D seems like it makes the 5D a better cam overall, but I did like the sample footage Canon posted for the 7D. I'm still trying to decide what I'm going to do.

I see it also has the 12 minute max clip size. For most appropriate applications, that isn't much of a problem. But when you need to set it up and let it roll, that's a problem. I am still looking forward to the application of the sensor and related technology in a real video camera. Do you want to walk around the event looking for good candid and b-roll shots and find everybody asking you to take their picture because you look like a photographer?

I will get it as a second camera, for slow mo, 60p. curious if rolling shutter works same way, no impovements?

I think I'll wait for the next generation of camcorders, which are sure to include the larger sensors.

I just read specs on 7D... It should make the 5D owners mad. I know I would be. It has not only better video specs but also faster CPU (dual vs single). That also might look like a promise to new 5D Mark III model in the works - with dual Digit4 and better video options (variable fps)???

I'm sure all photogs still working with 40D's will be happy to upgrade their cameras.

One thing for sure - if Canon have all those technology to build dedicated 35mm video camera, we shouldn't be waiting much longer for it.

I'm a 5d2 owner and not the slightest bit upset. I have a full frame camera that shoots killer video, and it is an amazing stills camera. The low light capabilities on this camera are absolutely astounding. I shot some wedding footage yesterday and last night that very few cameras could come close to. I use the 5d2 only to supplement footage from my XLH1 and HV30 (I have to run the H1 and HV30 for ceremonies and speeches), but more and more the 5d2 is my go to camera.

I've shot only 4 weddings since I've had the 5d2, that helped pay for it, and I'll have a killer reel for wedding shows. Now if you haven't got a 5d2 and are planning to shoot weddings, well the season is winding down so you might as well wait and see how the 7d works.

The 3 strongest aspects of the 5d2 (IMHO) are:
Low light performance
Shallow DOF
the ability to use wide angle lenses

So far I don't think the 7d will match the 5d2 in any of these areas. If variable frame rate is more important to you, then wait for the 7d.

I'm not sure.. but AFAIK from high ISO video mode samples 7D looks just like 5D.. It depends on lighting conditions and even on coloring of scene for sure.. But who knows how canon manage interpolation for video mode and what sensor square is effective for this needs in both models...

initial thoughts ...

reframecollective.com Testing the Canon 7D (http://reframecollective.com/blog/?p=693)

Jason, is that your profile we see on the last pic? How did you find the 7D. Aside from the sensor size, in your opinion what would be the advantage of coughing out the exta 1K?

Ken, i don't understand your post?!?!!

the 7D will have all 3 aspects you listed!! why do you think it wouldn't????

take a look at P.Bloom's latest clips:
Dublin's People: Canon 7d 24p on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/6475938)

As time keeps revealing more and more footage from the 7D, along with comments from people using it, I think unless you're a photographer you're not going to get $1000 more worth of value out of the 5D than the 7D. Plus, the 7D has the features that the film community has been screaming for - true 24P, 60p, S35-sized sensor, and more video features and flexibility than the 5D.

Whether it's fair to 5D users or not, this camera is going to change the industry - a further progression of the change brought on by the 5D. You are going to see a huge wave of new filmmakers using this tool.

Ken, i don't understand your post?!?!!

the 7D will have all 3 aspects you listed!! why do you think it wouldn't????

take a look at P.Bloom's latest clips:
Dublin's People: Canon 7d 24p on Vimeo (http://www.vimeo.com/6475938)

Richard,

I was respnding to the previous post that said 5d ownwers should be mad. I'm a 5d owner who's not at all upset. Is the 7d superior in low light? (not according to Jason), wide angle capability? (not with a 1.6x crop factor), or shallow DOF? (similar but not superior). So why would I be mad? If there were serious changes in form factor (rotating/flip out view finder), or XLR inputs, or such then maybe so.

If you're a 5d owner who's upset, then sell it and buy a 7d, and pocket some money. If you don't own a 5d, then wait for the 7d. Or wait for the next big thing. Because you know that not far down the road, there's always something better. If you've shot with a DSLR style camera, you realize that they are a challenge to shoot with - being that everything is manual and handheld is virtually imossible, you know that the technology will be converted to a dedicated video camera style body soon enough.

cheers ken, i see what you mean now, thanks for clearing that up :)

I just read specs on 7D... It should make the 5D owners mad.

I just did too, and I'm not mad, I'm actually glad I didn't wait for 7D, and I'm not saying this because I already have 5Dmkii, with the price difference between two, selling one and getting another, I would even "make" some money; it's just not easy to let go full sensor after you've seen what it does;
I know 7D will not be as good in low light, which is important to me, but I still will do side by side as soon as I'll get my hands on it :)

For the price of the bodies and seeing as how they utilize the same glass I don't see why there should be any contention between the two.

If you've already got a 5D then you've got some lenses, so for $1700 or however much the 7D is selling for you've got yourself a second body that will be easier to focus on the fly and has the added benefit of 24p if that matters to you, AND you've got yourself a backup camera if you do stills as well.

Heck, use the 5D for a top of the line still camera and the 7D for your go to video camera. Slap the 5D into video mode when you need crazy shallow DOF or a superior low light camera. Also, from what I've seen online thus far the 7D is no slouch in low light.

They are a great compliment to each other, not competition. If you want to complain about dropping another $1700 on the 7D when you've already got a 5D, just look at the images coming out of it compared to a traditional video camera anywhere near that price range. For a backup body or second camera under $2000 you're not going to do better, not even close, especially considering you've already invested in glass for your 5D.

Both camera's look good! One down side I can think of that the 7D has is the 1.6x crop factor, if you slap a fisheye lens on the 7D you get almost none of the amazing fishy look you get with a full frame sensor. So if you like the fisheye look the 7D is not the camera for you.

The fisheye observation is a good one to note, Nicholas. And you are right, both cameras look good! Easier focusing is a big plus - I struggled with that especially this past weekend with the 5D. Overall I'm leaning toward the 7D as my second cam and the money saved from returning the 5D can be applied to my first cam, which is still being decided upon. :)

I love the 5D picture, but the 7D is showing itself to be quite capable and pretty, albeit slightly different than the 5D but still excellent. I don't know that the difference is that critical for video users - especially with 24p and 60p capabilities giving the 7D a new edge over the 5D.

Just a follow up... I returned the 5D for now. I'm going to WEVA next week and will have a chance to A/B both cameras, so it made sense to wait before making a final investment.

I doubt there will be much difference at all in low-light performance between the 5D2 and the 7D. We'll find out for sure soon enough though. Meanwhile it makes perfect sense to have both, for the reasons that Ethan stated. The 1.6x crop actually works to your advantage for the times when you really need telephoto... the EF 400mm f/5.6 L with a 1.4x extender yields almost 900mm on the 7D (not that you always need that kind of reach, but it's just an example.

And the EF-S 15-85mm f/3.5-5.6 IS will give the 7D the same coverage as the 5D2 kit lens, 24-105mm f/4 L (just a bit longer, actually -- the point is that you'd have 24mm effectively at the wide end. You can go even wider with the EF-S 10-22mm f/3.5-4.5 for $800 which is less expensive than doing it with L glass on the 5D2.

the DOF has a difference. But I agree it will be a complimentary camera to the 5D2, its not a replacement but I am betting there will be a FF model with all the features of the 7D very soon. That would upset 5D2 owners (ME!!!) if the price is below the 5D (unlikely). If it is something higher I wouldnt be upset. Unless they produce is 5D3 then I'll be kicking some a**!!!

Thats why I wait a year or two before I buy the "lastest" cameras!

Just a follow up... I returned the 5D for now. I'm going to WEVA next week and will have a chance to A/B both cameras, so it made sense to wait before making a final investment.

Chances are against it but wouldn't it be wonderful if this were an announcement for a video camera body wrapped around a DSLR chip:

Canon invites press to "most important" product launch | Electronista (http://www.electronista.com/articles/09/09/10/canon.invites.press.to.product.launch/)

HA! That would be wonderful. Eventually a Camcorder and Still Camera will be the same thing. Eventually cell phones will be able to take "professional quality" pics. Yes, the future is scary! Thank God that these are only tools and that a wrench does not make you a mechanic!! Don't you guys see Canon is only teasing us? They already had the 7D drawn up when they released the 5DMkII. I love it!

But yeah, the only people that should be bugged out about the release of the 7D are Videographers. If you are a Photographer, then you have very specific needs. To people like me (Videographers), it doesn't make much of a difference whether I am shooting with the MkII, 7D, or 50D (Though it would be AMAZING if I could capture video on my 50D). I mean lets face it, when the MkII came out, I'm sure no one was thinking this was the end of the line. When you need something, you make the purchase. No matter how you slice it, the MkII is a more capable camera, it just depends on what you need. That being said, the 7D may become a second camera for me, because I can not afford the MkII.

JS

More capable for whom? That’s the question one really needs to answer. If you are a stills photographer then yes it would be deemed a more capable camera than the 7D. But as a video guy who wants a standard 35mm format I think the 7D is a much more capable camera. Having a full sensor (2 me) does not determine how much more capable a cam is to another. There are a number of things that matter. In this case the variable frame rate, super codec and its current sensor size is it for me. The HV20 has a bigger sensor than most prosumer cams….but is it more capable? Nope. But even that depend (especially if you are one who rather a small form camcorder). If the low light on the 5Dll and 7D turns out to be similar then really the only thing the 5Dll has over the other cam is the size of its sensor. But once again that alone might be more important to another (not me).

According to an article (linked in the DVi 7D forum) this li'l bugger can shoot full res stills WHILE shooting video... that changes everything.

The 5D2 was certainly a huge shock, but this camera may even be more of a revolution. The features definitely put this closer to a usable video camera with manual control AND a high end still camera. This was pretty much what I'd hoped Sony would release in an Alpha system body... If I had Canon lenses/accessories, I'd think I'd be all over this camera... may have to start shopping...

According to an article (linked in the DVi 7D forum) this li'l bugger can shoot full res stills WHILE shooting video... that changes everything.

Dave,

Just so you know, the 5d2 does this as well.

Yes, that's nothing new. The 5D Mk. II always had that function. Be aware that it causes a 1 sec. freeze-frame in the video recording though.

....and that's 30 frames of video gone right there.... So that feature would be useless for videographers. I'm not sure if the 7D works the same way however.

Sorry, the 7D works exactly the same way in this regard.

There is also the Tokina 10-17, which is a zoom FE. Not f2.8 all the way but a flexible lens. APS-C lenses don't all have to be Canon. Sigma and Tokina do make a few good lenses.

I have a Tamron 17-35. It's 2.8 at the wide end but goes down to around 4.5 at the long end. It's a decent lens, not spectacular but pretty good. Heavy and well built ,and can be used with full frame cams.

More capable for whom? That’s the question one really needs to answer. If you are a stills photographer then yes it would be deemed a more capable camera than the 7D. But as a video guy who wants a standard 35mm format I think the 7D is a much more capable camera. Having a full sensor (2 me) does not determine how much more capable a cam is to another. There are a number of things that matter. In this case the variable frame rate, super codec and its current sensor size is it for me. The HV20 has a bigger sensor than most prosumer cams….but is it more capable? Nope. But even that depend (especially if you are one who rather a small form camcorder). If the low light on the 5Dll and 7D turns out to be similar then really the only thing the 5Dll has over the other cam is the size of its sensor. But once again that alone might be more important to another (not me).



Yes Ian, you are correct, that's what I intended, that the features are more crafted towards Photographers than anyone else. As far as the sensor topic, I removed that from my post, perhaps before you finished your reply. I'm a Video person (so far), that's why I opt for the 7D.

JS

If the larger sensor allows for more light then in theory the 5dmk2 would allow for narrower apertures at equal exposures. In other words longer DOF without losing light. Sometimes i hate the shallow DOF on wedding work. I find it annoying when the focus shifts over and back from bride to groom at random times. Ideally both should be in focus and beyond and in front of that should be where the focus falls off. So that would place the 5dmk2 firmly in front of the 7d in some lowlight locations.

If the larger sensor allows for more light then in theory the 5dmk2 would allow for narrower apertures at equal exposures. In other words longer DOF without losing light.

But because the 5Dm2 has shallower DOF at equivalent apertures the effect you're talking about is cancelled out. Even if you open up the 7D a full stop you still achieve slightly deeper DOF than the 5DmkII (there is a really good example of this in the 7D forum at dpreview).

I think here in Pal land the 5d/7d choice is a little simpler. The lack of 25p is a huge problem for us. I really don't want to give up full-frame, but if you do any production work in Pal countries, the 7d makes much more sense.

Oh yes i see what you mean. Thats good to know.
Im like yourself Josh, for me its a no brainer. 25p all the way.

If the larger sensor allows for more light then in theory the 5dmk2 would allow for narrower apertures at equal exposures. In other words longer DOF without losing light. Sometimes i hate the shallow DOF on wedding work. I find it annoying when the focus shifts over and back from bride to groom at random times. Ideally both should be in focus and beyond and in front of that should be where the focus falls off. So that would place the 5dmk2 firmly in front of the 7d in some lowlight locations.

Nope. The size of the sensor doesn't affect sensitivity. ISO 100 is ISO 100 in FF, APS-C, medium format or anything else. Indeed, the smaller sensor will get you deeper DOF for the same FOV/aperture.

Nope. The size of the sensor doesn't affect sensitivity. ISO 100 is ISO 100 in FF, APS-C, medium format or anything else. Indeed, the smaller sensor will get you deeper DOF for the same FOV/aperture.

While true, I can shoot at 1250 ISO (essentially, a gain of 12.5) with very little noise on the 5D2. Try that with a 1/3" camcorder.

Of course, the 7D is no 1/3" camcorder, and it has a newer generation sensor and noise reduction algorithm. I haven't used one yet, but I'd guess that the noise won't be all that different from the 5D2. It might measure differently in the lab, but I doubt that there will be much real-world difference.

Nope. The size of the sensor doesn't affect sensitivity. ISO 100 is ISO 100 in FF, APS-C, medium format or anything else. Indeed, the smaller sensor will get you deeper DOF for the same FOV/aperture.

You're right of course, the exposures ought to be the same, but *provided that* the sensor technology is equivalent, the noise levels won't be. The 5Dmk2 ought to have a 1 stop advantage in low iso noise - ie: iso 200 on the 7D will produce noise levels of the 5Dm2 at 400.

This assumes the 7D hasn't made a great leap in terms of sensor technology / processing - too early to say at this stage but there are pixel peepers on some forums giving 7D low iso images (the few available) a pretty rough going over. From what I've seen (from the few samples online) the 5Dm2 does enjoy a low iso advantage, as it should. The 7D seems to hold it's own surprisingly well in terms of high iso.

There's been lots of testing of the 7D noise vs the 5d2 noise... what has so far been determined is that the 5D2 has less noise but the noise seems to show a pattern (banding)
ever so slightly...

The noise on the 7D is very slightly more than the 5D2 but they aren't seeing any pattern
to the noise...

So the consensus is, 7D has slightly more noise, but its " Quality Noise "... some are comparing the 7D noise to film grain.

and of course the randomized noise of the 7D is easier to take care of in post edits...

...So the consensus is, 7D has slightly more noise, but its " Quality Noise "... some are comparing the 7D noise to film grain...

"Dun dun Duunnnnn"

I've always noticed that film grain was slightly more pleasent to look at, most of the time, than digital. I never thought about any science behind it though. Very interesting.

Liam I wasnt speaking about iso at all.
I was talking about the size of the sensor allowing more light fall onto it therefor at equal iso one camera would allow for a better exposure than the other. What else is the whole point of emphasis being on sensor size. I was simply speculating that if it would be possible to have deeper dof with a well exposed 5d shot than a well exposed 7d shot this would be a good thing. Johsh reminded me that sensor size increasing reduces dof so both cancel each other out. Obviously iso needs to come into play next.

Anyone intrested how the battle ends?
YouTube - Mr Hitler not happy about the Canon 7d... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZp9WMy4ihg)

Liam I wasnt speaking about iso at all.
I was talking about the size of the sensor allowing more light fall onto it therefor at equal iso one camera would allow for a better exposure than the other.

Ger, the exposure would be exactly the same on both cameras. The smaller sensor merely crops the image.

Really?
I just cant follow this any more. My head hurts.
Well i placed my order today for a 7d today so soon.... sooon..
ill be shooting stunning footage!!!

Really?
I just cant follow this any more. My head hurts.
Well i placed my order today for a 7d today so soon.... sooon..
ill be shooting stunning footage!!!

And that is all that matters. Have fun with it:)

Ger, the exposure would be exactly the same on both cameras. The smaller sensor merely crops the image.

Crops but sizes to the same FullHD, so there is a difference

I do agree that the APS-C size is likely to become a standard. While a still photog can take multiple exposure to get correct focus with very thin DOF, a videographer usually doesn't have that option. For my taste the most common elegant way to use DOF control with people is to soften the background while still maintaining a sense of place.
I find lack of 25p truly bizarre. I thought Japan was PAL? How an large, international company decides to exclude the standard for a large part of the world is very strange.

And that is all that matters. Have fun with it:)

Too true, thx.

Yea Don its strange how they left it out of the 5d in the first place. That cam would have sold like hotcakes around here. I would have bought one in a flash. It has been so annoying watching all this lovely footage on the net coming from the states and not being able to be a part of it.

the most common elegant way to use DOF control with people is to soften the background while still maintaining a sense of place.


That's a great way to define an appropriate use of depth of field. A "sense of place" helps establish the shot location for example. Very shallow depth of field can be useful when it's appropriate to completely obscure a distracting or ugly background but can be out of place if there isn't a clear reason for using it.

...I thought Japan was PAL?

Nope. Japan is primarily a 60 Hz country.