Hello,
I am looking for more info on the art of editing. More interested in documentary than feature. Not really interested in the mechanics of a particular software program.

Any ideas?

<<<-- Originally posted by mark_reidy : Hello,
I am looking for more info on the art of editing. More interested in documentary than feature. Not really interested in the mechanics of a particular software program.

Any ideas? -->>>

One of the tops on my list is called "In the Blink of an Eye" by Walter Murch. He was the editor on Apocalypse Now, English Patient, American Graffiti, just to name a few. It is a quick ready and offers a ton of insight.

"In the Blink of an Eye" at amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879505622

"Editing Digital Video"

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0071406352

Interestingly, Amazon is bundling it with another of my favorite books "The Little Digital Video Book".

<<<-- Originally posted by Ken Tanaka : "In the Blink of an Eye" at amazon.com:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879505622 -->>>

If I don't get that for Christmas I'm buying it myself :)

I just read 'The Conversations' by Michael Oondajte, it's an interview with Walter Murch and is incredibly inspiring. Not only does he talk about his life and his views on the industry, there are some very helpful tips peppered throughout about the art of editing. It's a really interesting read!

Just got back from the book store and was looking at the section of books that included all the NLE titles.

There must have been like 30 titles or more on Premiere, 10 or so for FCP, and 4-5 for AVID. Didn't see any for Edition or Vegas.

Does these numbers mean anything?? Maybe nothing.

But, I couldn't help thinking...either there are so many Premiere books because of Adobe's market share or there are a hell of a lot of people out there who have serious learning needs on how to use it. Based on my previous experience with Adobe, I'm thinking the latter. 8-) However, I've got to think that if I needed an abundant choice of learning materials Premiere and FCP are definitely options.

Not trying to knock Adobe, but the products I have seen from them do have quite the learning curve.

Of course I don't want this thread to turn into the "my NLE is better than your NLE" as they won't help anyone.

So, I pose the question....

Have you bought any books on your NLE and have you found them more valuable than the included documentation and resources?

Thanks

Carl

I read recently, that the most widely used NLE is Premiere. They have bundled it and included it with so many products, that it has a huge share of the "consumer" market. No doubt this is why there are so many books on it.

Final Cut Pro of course, has a large share too, and is very popular with "indy" procos. Hence the large number of books on that NLE.

Avid dominates the professional/broadcasting market. Their "prosumer" NLE - Avid XpressDV, Avid XpressDVFree and the new AVID XpressPRO with DNA are relatively new to the consumer market compared to FCP and Premiere. (Even though they pretty much created the professional market) Most of the "books" and training manuals are written BY Avid for training courses. I am surprised you found four or five of them.

I use Avid XpressDV, and found the books written BY Avid for training to be an improvement over the "manual" that comes with the system. It's designed in a class structure, with review notes at the end of each chapter.

I would love it if someone would write one on AVID for the "Teach yourself visually" series. I love the ones I have on Photoshop and illustrator.

This is just a personal thought on the subject-not endorsed by anyone- Premiere is extremely easy to use. Much easier than the books published to teach one make it out to be. As a matter of fact, most of the Premiere books I have read are pretty useless. They tell you how to do a simple project, but don't go into anything in depth.

Hi,

My video editing, titling and such generally feels quite rushed.
Can anyone recommend a book that may talk about timing
and editing styles?

There is a thread about this here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5501). I bought that book as
well and it is an interesting read. It doesn't include some sample
stuff to work with for example or tell you how to edit. It does
give a lot of insight into how one of the great editors mind works
and how edits come together for him. Interesting read.

There is another thread here (http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4566) with some more books.

Hi,

I'm just wondering if anyone has read any REALLY GOOD editing books - and I'm not talking about Final Cut Pro books or Sony Vegas books or Avid books or any program-specific book.

I'm talking about books that deal with pacing, rhythm, professional editing procedures, working with directors, assembling different cuts, regardless of the program. Any of these 'timeless' books around?

Thanks,
Dennis

Most people will probably direct you to books from Walter Murch
or written about him.

The big one everybody talks about: In the blink of an eye:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5501

There is also a book called The Conversations : Walter Murch
and the Art of Editing Film which is not written by himself but
by a friend of his who talks to Murch.

Both books are a great read. The latter can be found here:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0375413863/

And another book:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4566

Encore is now running a show called the Cutting Edge, which is a great 100 minutes of interviews with Oscar winning editors, talks about the history of editing, the director/editor relationship, various styles, etc. I think it is scheduled to show again this week sometime, if you can get it down under..

Hi,

Thanks for the recommendations, I'll check them out. What about, 'the eye is quicker' by Pepperman:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0941188841/ref=pd_sbs_b_5/102-1419816-4180165?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance

Anyone read this book? It looks like it's pretty good...

I'll be getting a couple of books, probably the ones by Murch you mentioned.

As for the Cutting Edge, that sounds like a great show, I dunno if I can get it on Sky here or not. Hmm...

Thanks,
Dennis

This just arrived yesterday form Amazon.

Digital Video Editing by Goodman & McGrath. Copyright 2003

The preface was good, and it may be what you are looking for. Check with me in a week and I can tell you about the whole book.

Dennis,
There are a few interesting books on editing, some already mentioned. There are many more books on how to use specific editing software.

But, at the the end of the search, none of these books will teach you much of anything about film/video editing. I've looked at (and bought) many. It is just not a subject that lends itself to any meaningful instructional treatment in books. You learn film editing by doing it, and/or watching someone else do it, for many, many hours across many different projects.

So if you're looking for the Walter Murch books to reveal the art of film editing to you, save your money. "In the Blink of An Eye" and "The Conversations" are interesting reads but that's about it. You will not be any more skilled at editing than you would be more skilled at space flight after reading John Glenn's biography.

As Nike likes to say, "Just Do It".

I recently checked out a book called "Transitions" which is more specifically about digital video editing and is a series of essays from professionals. It's a very easy read and contains a lot of useful info. I've enjoyed it a lot.

Ditto on "Transistions". I find books like this, with professional insights very usefull in terms of approach and workflow. The same can be said about attending writing workshops or reading about the approach of famous authors. There is NO substitute for doing it of course, but it helps if you hear that others have an approach that is similar to your own.

One editor or author might say "I can only work standing up, while listening to music" - or - "I always quit for the day, knowing what the next cut/line is going to be. That way, I start with something ready to go the next day."

That might reinforce your own approach, or it might open you up to a new approach to help free up a creative block.

Hi everyone,

Ken, that's very enlightening, I'll keep it in mind, maybe I can borrow some of those books from libraries etc. instead of purchasing them (specialist 'film' related books here in NZ are not that commonly found in libraries...).

As for Transitions, that sounds interesting, I'm gonna check it out.

Basically the original reason I asked the question was I was wondering if I was doing anythign, 'wrong'. I know that there's no such thing as 'wrong', however, I just didn't know if there was a 'standard way' of working for editors -i.e. first you should select these takes blah blah blah, then you should piece them together like this, then eliminate this and that and then re-cut to this etc. etc.

I suppose in the end, I'll just stick to the way I'm editing and just develop my own method. Still, it would be cool to know how some 'pro' editors (who do it for a living) go about the task...

Dennis

Dennis,

"Transitions" is exactly that, a book of essays by editors of everything from Feature films, to documentaries, to music videos, to animated films, talking about "Here's how I approach a problem, works for me, might work for you" sort of attitude.

Well it took a bit of a hunt for some reason, but Amazon has Transitions in their "used" listings for $3.55 plus $3.49 shipping. They would make great presents if I had any friends that were editors. :) But they are NEW copies, just not from Amazon directly. Amazon also has it in inventory for $33.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1903450535/

Thanks John for the link.

Dennis

I have to slightly disagree with Ken here (that's a first!).

It is true that (probably) no editing book will learn you how to edit,
as with everything, experience and just doing it is the best way
to learn how it works or doesn't work.

However, in the book "in the blink of an eye" I do believe Walter
drops some very interesting tidbits and things that work for him
that do make you think differently about editing (in my case). He
talks about things like:

- placing a small cut-out person besides your screen to more easily fool your mind you are editing something for the big screen

- cutting at places where you blink your eyes (hence the title of the book)

- he also talks about what he believes is important for a shot/cut to succeed (the rule of six) and which of those are important in which order (so if you can't do it all, you can choose the most important ones)

- he also talks much on cutting while the film is playing at full speed (so you can let your mind and your subconscious do the actual "cutting"), this technique seems to work great for myself for example

In the new (2nd) edition there is also a whole new section on
digital editing on computers which points out pro's and con's.
It's also quite funny to read about that he cuts a movie STANDING.

For $10.46 at Amazon I would personally at least get that book:

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1879505622/

Thanks Rob. Either way I'll find a way to read those books at least - it can't hurt to know more about the subject. What you've mentioned so far seems interesting... I'll be sure to get that book (and The Conversations).

Does anyone think it's weird that there aren't as many books written on editing as books written on other sides of filmmaking? I mean, you obviously get truckloads on screenwriting and directing, but I've been searching on Amazon for a while, and there's only a handful compared to say, sound books or cinematography books.

Dennis

<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Liu : Does anyone think it's weird that there aren't as many books written on editing as books written on other sides of filmmaking? I mean, you obviously get truckloads on screenwriting and directing, but I've been searching on Amazon for a while, and there's only a handful compared to say, sound books or cinematography books.
Dennis -->>>

Not really. The market for editing instruction material is awfully small and, as I noted, it really is not a subject that renders very effectively in books. I own both "In The Blink of An Eye" and "The Conversations". They are more entertaining than instructional reads, as you're basically reading philosophy and reminiscences. Sound subjects lend themselves reasonably well in books due largely to waveform display illustrations. Cinematography works in books because it uses a lot of verbiage wrapped around some stills (usually b&w) and line drawing illustrations. But illustrating cut-aways, transitions, and other editing topics in a platform-neutral book would be largely impossible. There is one such book that I reviewed last year that attempts to do this but it was, in my opinion, a noble failure. The authors could not avoid the second half of the book from becoming a very platform-specific dance step manual.

I sort of agree with Ken, in that there is no one book that can teach or show you how to edit. Editing is so much of a creative process, that to succeed and be good at it, you need to be creative.

You could read a book that would give you the basics of editing, and allow you to learn how to do the basics. But nothing that you edited would be particularly interesting if you only applied the methods the book suggested. What makes editing good is the passion and creativity of the editor that does it.

I find the books people have mentioned as useful though, in that they reveal how other successful and renowned editors approached problems and found innovative solutions. They are a great source of inspiration. But ultimately it is a filmmakers, and an editor's goal to create something that is unique. And you can only do that by learning from your own experiences.

I certainly think it helps to read about how others have done it as well. The books can save you time and help you learn, but there is absolutely no substitute for going out there and doing your own work.

<<<-- Originally posted by Dennis Liu :
Does anyone think it's weird that there aren't as many books written on editing as books written on other sides of filmmaking?

Dennis -->>>

Ultimately its about telling the story. So what is the difference between learning how to write a screenplay and learning how to edit at the other end of the process? I have some editing philosophy books (Walter) coming in, but I am also adding some writing books and maybe a directing book or two to my library. If I could find a book on childrens storytelling, I would read one of those too. Keep it simple an dentertaining and meaningful.

I guess you guys are right - editing is very hard to describe/explain in a book format now that I think about it. I've ordered a couple of editing books, I'll report back if I find any of them any good.

Dennis

Please do Dennis! Always interesting to hear what others think
and it can be very helpful for others. Happy reading! <g>

Richard, Thanks for letting us know about Transitions. My copy arrived late yesterday and after a quick skim, I know I am going to enjoy it and learn a bit. It looks to be a very easy read.

John,
Enjoy the read. I've been going through it again since the post, and finding stuff that has new relevance. I guess it depends on the project you are working on at the time.

My big beef with the book, is the printing on background images. Sometimes its just hard to read black text on a grey background.

A little late jumping into this discussion but...

Although editing is certainly predominantly a creative craft, I think there are particular things that you can learn or be taught.
A- Continuity. (Of course, continuity errors are kind of evident anyways.) As an editor, one trick you can do to fix a continuity problem is to flip the image horizontally.
B- Little tricks. If you want to re-use a piece of stock footage, you can flip it horizontally and most people won't notice.
C- Certain "styles" of editing can be imitated. i.e. MTV style, Memento with the backwards narrative, Michael Moore's documentary style (particularly notable are the use of humor and irony, and a documentary which focuses on the documentarian [the way he talks about himself portrays himself works to increase his credibility and portrays himself as the little guy; he shows and doesn't tell you his point of view])
Also check out Michel Gondry's music video "Cibo Matto"... it's somewhere in http://www.director-file.com/gondry/
The use of reverse time is interesting. As well, some of his other music videos are interesting (i.e. the kylie minogue one, which is all in one shot).
Citizen Kane and Rashomon also have interesting editing.

D- Certain editing techniques can be learned and imitated. J and L cuts, where the video or audio comes in before the other; cutaways; flashbacks; parallel action; irony (related kind of to juxtaposition, because juxtapositing of certain things can heighten irony); context - how the context of shots affect meaning (google "pudovkin experiment"); certain rhythm things, like the timing between lines; use of music (if you think about it, music is extremely unnatural- yet it works)

You can certainly build off these editing techniques and devices.

E- On the macro scale, there are story telling things that can be learned. Notice how many TV shows have multiple writers and typically are formulaic. Certainly, the story telling in TV shows can be imitated and/or learned.
Books on this would be "Story" by Robert McKee, and "Screenplay" by Syd Field.
In my opinion, writing and editing go hand in hand. Many writing techniques are analagous to editing.
Both writing and editing are trying to achieve the goal of story telling.

F- In my opinion, humour can be studied. Jokes can typically be categorized and studied in how they work. You can study how the delivery of a joke affects its "funniness". In editing, you can learn which delivery you want to edit in to make the joke its funniest (if an actor is being a straight man, you probably want to edit in the most normal-looking behaviors). As well, there should be a certain timing to allow people to laugh before the next joke.
Woody Allen has a book on humour... you can borrow it from the library.


A lot of the above is about studying what's been done. A good way to learn things is by imitation. The word imitation has negative connotations to it in that it implies you are unoriginal. I don't mean that. If you think about it, nearly everything you see on TV or the big screen has been done before. i.e. Michael Moore's use of humour in a documentary is only noteworthy because it's rarely been done in documentaries before. And there have been documentaries before him that incorporate humour.

If you want to come up with something new, there are some creative strategies that may help. One of them it doing something one way, and then forcing yourself to come up with different ways of doing that. It could be something like expressing that two people made love with each other.
Method A: Show it.
Method B: There was a time where censors wouldn't allow A. So... editors intercut things like shots of waves coming in and out.
Method C: Imply it. The guy is on the bed smoking a cigarette.
Method D: You could tell it by putting words up on the screen (i.e. the opening to Star Wars). Of course, this isn't a very effective way of doing things, but it is another option nonetheless.
Use your imagination and come up with another method. Certainly, some of the ideas will likely be bad (i.e. method D). But I think you have to come up with lots of ideas before you hit upon a good one. 'Creativity is 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.'
You'll likely have to go through a ton of bad ideas before you come up with a new one.

There are some internet resources and psychology books (i.e. diane halpern "thought and knowledge" is a university textbook with a chapter on creativity) on the subject of creativity and creative strategies.

Anyways there's my two cents on this...

Books on editing technique:
First Cut: Conversations With Film Editors (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0520075889/103-5921571-7899830?v=glance)
It's a good read. Interviews with various film editors.

"The technique of film editing." by Reisz, Karel.
A little dry, but information on the history of editing and various 'innovations' in editing. It starts with a look at the beginning of film with DW Griffith, Eisenstein, etc.

Glenn,

Is this book a historical review or an education in editing ?

Thanks,

Gints

I enjoyed this editing movie at the Cinequest festival in San Jose in early March 2006:

"The Cutting Edge: the Magic of Movie Editing" (2004)
Directed by Wendy Apple,
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0428441/

It's a bit of both from what I remember.

I'm currently aiming towards editing as my position in the DV field, and as anyone who looks know -the amount of books available are much smaller then other positions.

I'm almost done reading my first book:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1903450535/sr=8-1/qid=1156263957/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-7202156-5908862?ie=UTF8
Transitions: Voices on the Craft of Digital Editing
# Paperback: 272 pages
# Publisher: Wrox Press; 1st edition (June 15, 2002)
# ISBN: 1903450535

I highly recommend this book to anyone considering becoming an editor, and those who are already practicing the craft. I got my copy in the discount book bin at CompUSA last weekend for just $20.

SO, as I was saying, I'm almost done reading that one and it is time to order my next book (or three). I've looked at the Amazon reviews, but frankly I don't trust them - people are paid to put those glowing reviews up. I trust you folks much more on the subject.

Without further ado, here's the list of books I'm considering. Please leave your opinion if you have actually read a book in question, I hate wasting money. Also if you have suggestions for other good books on the subject of editing - not software specific - feel free to post those :-)

These are in no particular order, and i know a couple of them aren't just about editing but the descriptions looked like they'd be good to read.

1. 303 Digital Filmmaking Solutions by Chuck Gloman
2. In the Blink of an Eye Revised 2nd Edition by Walter Murch
3. The Little Digital Video Book by Michael Rubin
4. Grammar of the Edit (Media Manuals) by ROY THOMPSON
5. Editing Digital Video : The Complete Creative and Technical Guide by Robert M. Goodman
6. First Cut: Conversations with Film Editors by Gabriella Oldham
7. What They Don't Teach You At Film School by Camille Landau


Thanks in advance.

In The Blink of an Eye is an quick and interesting read, worth the small price.
The second edition adds material on digital editing, which is more interesting as a historical review of Murch's transition from film to digital than for general editing tips. The original portion of the book is mainly an visit into Mr. Murch's mindset as he edits, which may or may-not be interesting to you, but it's easliy worth the quick read and low cost.

One other book to consider is "The Technique of Film and Video Editing: History, Theory and Practice" by Ken Dancyger:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0240804201

This is more of a college textbook on editing. Not a single sitting book, very dry ... BUT ... it does include an EXTENSIVE and DEEP look into ... well ... the history, theory and practice of editing. You kind of have to read this in bits and pieces on occation to really absorb what it has to offer, but I personally found many of the sections to be very useful. There is a fourth edition of this coming out at the end of the year, so you may want to hold off on this one (if you choose to dig into it at all) until the update.

Good luck.

In The Blink of an Eye is an quick and interesting read, worth the small price.


This was required reading in graduate school. Murch is one of the top film editors (and sound designers) around. He edited the Godfathers and Apolypse Now, if I remember correctly. I haven't read the second edition, though, so I need to pick it up.

This was required reading in graduate school. Murch is one of the top film editors (and sound designers) around. He edited the Godfathers and Apolypse Now, if I remember correctly. I haven't read the second edition, though, so I need to pick it up.

He was *one* of the editors on Apocalypse Now. Although he work more on redux.

He was the editor of Godfather III (the crappy one). not 2 or 1.

His big accomplishment on Apocalypse Now was involved in sound design (which was unprecedented and phenomenal), were he put together over 70 tracks of sound fx IIRC, which doesn't sound like much in the digital age but anyone who's hacked magnetic tape will tell you is no easy feat.

I'm just sick of Murch (who *is* a good editor) getting credit for movies he didn't edit. The book is a good read, but I didn't find it actually very useful, as far as editing techniques, theories, craft.

Eisenstein is where it's at, as far as intense ideas and getting you to think of cinema as language, and getting dynamic results. He's really tough to follow as he wrote most his theory in the late 20's, and what he has as far as examples of 'intellectual montage' are his first attempts, which are either clumsy or brilliant, but rarely in between...

http://www.amazon.com/Film-Form-Essays-Theory/dp/0156309203/sr=1-1/qid=1158688494/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-1729086-8440857?ie=UTF8&s=books

I just got Cinematic Storytelling by Jennifer Van Sijll (http://mwp.com/books/storyboard/cinematicstorytelling.php4). Although it does not explicitly say so, this book is basically a primer on editing. It gives a comprehensive list of techniques, with graphic examples from movies. I just love this book!

Hey guys,
After 2 years i am finally in post!
now i have been editing for the last 10 years, but that being said I love to find a good book for a touch of the old inspirado.
i am looking for a book on post production that is an entertaining read, in the vein of lloyd kaufmans "make your own damn movie."
any suggestions?
i have heard that the guerilla filmmakers blueprint is an EXCELLENT resource.
Thanks in advance.

"In the Blink of an Eye" by Walter Murch or the "DV Rebels Guide" by Stu Maschwitz

"The Conversations" by Michael Ondaatje (another book about Walter Murch)

Interesting fact: Walter Murch has his edit station set up so that he has to stand up to edit - to give the editing more energy, apparently

"Transitions; Voices on the Craft of Digital Editing" - Interesting book with interviews with a dozen prominent editors in various fields, Feature, Documentary, Animation, Music Videos etc... they talk about their approach to the craft, tricks of the trade and philosophies of cutting.

CAVEAT; This book is extremely 'graphic intensive'... in that it has text overlaying colorful graphics. Very annoying and difficult to read for those of us with baby boomer eyes... nevertheless, some excellent viewpoints.

I hate that book. It made my eyes bleed.

I agree that the 'artsy layout' does a terrible disservice to the content. It adds nothing of value, and makes it difficult on some pages to actually SEE the fonts. I wish they would re-release the book as a simple print selection of the wonderfull interviews.

Nevertheless, I saw it on sale the other day in a FRY'S for 8 dollars, so if you can pick up a used or discounted copy, it really is an interesting overview of how different editors approach their craft.