Bill,
ANY GG/diffusing material will vignette. ANY Fresnel focusing screen (if placed at the "right" distance to camcorder's lens combined with a "certain zoom-in") will NOT vignette, thus having a bigger usable frame size.
Subject to: 1)focal length of SLR lens, 2)max aperture of SLR lens, 3)distance to camcorder's lens and 4) the amount of "zoom-in" combined with MOD of camcorder's lens. A nightmare but:
Any camcorder WILL have a "sweet spot" where you can zoom-in AND focus on a Fresnel screen. That is why all contraptions having a GG (static or spinning) have to use an achromatic and zoom-in as much as possible to get away with vigneting. Vigneting IS THERE when shooting FILM!!! ALL THE TIME!!!!!! But FILM has 12 STOPS of latitude and it does not SHOW ALL THAT BAD. Now.... if you capture the same image with CCD/CMOS, the available range is 5?stops?
The effect is the subject of this morning's discussion.

The difference between the image on the FILM and on the GG is night and day, in terms of vigneting. And the difference is not the latitude, but the way the image is formed.
As far as I know, there's the usual vigneting that you get because of the lens - this will affect film and GG as well - and there's the extra vigneting you only get on the GG, that is generated by the GG itself and the way it works. Light that passes through the GG (coming from the lens) will be scattered in some proportion, but part of it will follow its straight path, thus, the light in the middle of the GG will go straight to the camcorder's lens, but the light on the outside will miss the camcorder's lens... So, on the midle of the image you have scattered light plus direct light, while on the margins you only get the scattered light.
If you have a very dense GG, more light will be scattered and less light will go straight (less vigneting). In turn, you'll loose some BIG steps there... If you have a thinner GG, as you approach clear glass, more light will get thru the GG (brighter image), but this also means that more light will follow its straight path - more vigneting. You can work this out using a condenser. (have you ever heard of a condenser used when working with film?!)

BTW: "condenser" means TWO plan-convex lens. (it is an system, not just ONE lens).


After I finish my morning coffee, I might change my mind to the above.... :)

the difference is not ,,,,,,,,,,the latitude, but the way the image is formed
You missed the word <<only>>>! now put it back where it belongs before I have my coffe and change my mind too (;-)< and...the rest is true.... however,.... what was a conderser again?....

"only" - I agree (this is half coffee later :) ).

And I don't know what a "conderser" is! :)
A condenser is a... "system" is not the word? My english is not that good... :(
I mean where you have two or more lens, not just one...
A plan-convex lens is.. just a plan-convex lens. And you can find it shaped on a fresnel, of course. But you need two of them before you can say you have a condenser. And this could actualy be an uncorrected condenser (not corrected for color and spherical aberrations). While a fresnel is good for focusing on a SLR (or large format photography) I don't know if it's enough for a mini35 addapter. I tried it. Granted, I didn't have a beatty or whatever $$. I mean GG.
"Any camcorder WILL have a "sweet spot" where you can zoom-in AND focus on a Fresnel screen"
But a two lens condenser can help here. You can move one of the plan-convex lens to "tune" the condenser. Don't ask me which one - I don't know. Try it! :)
The thing is, condenser have their focal length. That's where the eye should be. The "sweet spot". What should be in the focal point Dan? The CCD or the lens? Or what? I don't really understand.

Anyway, right or not, I've tried with one and then added the 2nd plan-convex. It is way better with 2 lens.

Hey all,

why not put that trial and error empirical approach behind you and use a tool for the job - Optical design software - everything you need to get that computer to optimise your design for perfect results.

After all you wouldnt edit your video with your eyes shut would you?

http://www.zemax.com/zemax/index.html

its expensive but there is time limited demo for free here

http://www.zemax.com/demo_z.html

you will learn a LOT about optics from this

EOT

Cosmin Rotaru<<<<<<A condenser is a... "system">>>>>>>>>>>
Noooooooo,..... that can't be..... another "system?".....
<<<<<I mean where you have two or more lens, not just one...>>>>>>>>>
Would they be looking like this?:
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/album28
<<<<But a two lens condenser can help here.>>>>>
Dam' bad condensers! Didn't want to help here!
<<<<What should be in the focal point Dan? The CCD or the lens? >>>>>
Which one was first? The chicken or the egg? White spot knows better...lol.
John, the program is sweet. Too bad they do not have lenses by brands (Canon 20X, or 16X, or Z1's zoom....) so you can test different combinations to a "given lens"....

Dan,
A quote from the first page of this thread...

[QUOTE
However, I can assure you that if anyone will be on the market with a lesser quality and a higher price than what
our world film community desrves, I will be there to make sure
ANYONE who can afford to buy an HD Sony (or whatever brand of prosummer HD) will access CONFORTABLY one of this adapters.
My aim is to open the "inner circle" to many.
QUOTE]

From what I've read, the device is $8,000, or $450/day to rent.
Is this correct? If so, do you consider your goal ("aim") met?

No, I did not meet my goal and I am not happy at all I still have to machine all parts. If it was done industrial, the price could go down to $2500 or even less (I guess) but as long as I make the parts measuring a hundred times (instead of CNC-ing them).... what can I do? I posted twice a request for anyone interested in production to contact me. I would rather share real revenue with someone, than keep all I can do by myself. I got carried away with other "toys" (of no lesser value), but still someone should organize the production (only not me). Too many temptations..... and I am weak and fall for anything that crosses my mind. I am neither “business oriented” nor money making inclined. I used to, but business is dirty. Imagine this:
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/album04/IMGA0879
selling for US $300. It has too many features to publish here and I would rather hold till I can look after manufacturing (hmmm... again...) A whole new concept. Is it patentable? You bet. More "toys"? You can bet on that too. The Oct "feature" I have in development will "require" nothing less than what I think I "need" for a good image. Wireless pan-tilt head on a motorized dolly (wireless controlled as well) anamorphic on MPIC and a lot more... Now... how can I organize production under these circumstances? MPIC is not "new" anymore, I made it and I am done with it. (I had a bit of "excitement" with the solar panels though) From now on, all that's left is production and that is not fun. That is work. I will make an effort though and thank you for the reminder! Honestly!

Hey! Speak for yourself! Production engineering methodology is fun for some of us! :)

I bet it is Bill and I am lucky not to know. I could get carried away just as well...

Quote
"I will make an effort though and thank you for the reminder! Honestly!"

Dan,
Thanks for the reply. Your device is very well designed and built. I certainly understand the challanges of scaling-up to production quantities.

I have added a new album (under brightness comparison)
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/album31?page=1
while I am having parts manufactured to lower the price. A few versions of the same movement might be available. I know the most sensitive issue here is PRICE (son of a..b-udget) but good news are on the way.

Further testing:
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/album32

I have added a new album (under brightness comparison)
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/album31?page=1
while I am having parts manufactured to lower the price. A few versions of the same movement might be available. I know the most sensitive issue here is PRICE (son of a..b-udget) but good news are on the way.
That is indeed good news!

but good news are on the way.
So Whats up ? Hmm... manufacturing cheaper parts, thats good. Also solar power sounds great... Do not be quiet and tell us news !

Didn't want to start a new thread for this, so here goes:

Anyone know how to put a small hole in a piece of glass without breaking it?
I got a piece of 3.5" circular glass from a $1 picture frame and I want to try making a glass version of the spinning CD adapter.
The hole should be no bigger than the shaft of a CD motor.

I don't have any precision equipment here. (No diamond drill bits, etc...) I do have a template printed from Photoshop that I will lay the glass over to find out the exact center point. I understand this is a slow process, but I am willing to do it. I want to do this before I grind it because I'd hate to break it after spending all that time on it.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

[QUOTE=Frank Ladner]Anyone know how to put a small hole in a piece of glass without breaking it?QUOTE]
I already did this couple of months before. And I have four glasses with hole to attach on harddrive motor (silmilar to CD holder). I can send it, but its 800 grit. Maybe its to much for you. Im from Europe, so if someone wants, I can send it.

Dan: hey Dan... ignoring me ?

I can send it, but its 800 grit.

Daves: Are you talking about sending a pre-made ground glass? I appreciate the offer, if so. I'm actually going to grind with a larger grit in an effort to get a more even image w/ no hotspot. Since it will be spinning, the grain won't be a problem.

Can you tell me a little more about how you did it? Thanks, Daves!

Can you tell me a little more about how you did it? Thanks, Daves!I did not. I order it to be done for me. They made me 4 pieces, but I do not use them anymore. Since its useless for me, I can send it to you. But I do no know if its enough big for you. I think it have 8cm in diameter, 2cm center hole. Or so. Thickness is 2 or 3mm. Its ready to use, you do not need anything to do with, until you do not want to make grain finer. Now its sanded by 800.

Hrm..... 8 cm is about 3.15 inches. The one I have now is 3 & 1/2 inches, and that's cutting it close...so I think the 3.15 would be too small to work with the motor and condensors I have. I'd hate for you to go through the trouble and it be too small. I appreciate the offer to send it!

I was thinking about it and maybe I won't have to drill. I could possibly mount something to the glass surface to attach to the shaft. I started thinking of using something flexible so that when the glass spins, it would automatically spin straight (with no z - motion). However, I wonder how well this would work when the camera moves quickly.

So... Dan, whats up... Tell us !

Hey guys!

For those of you looking for an adapter housing, here's one possible solution:

I got my hands on an old hard drive and removed the internal mechanisms (read/write arm, magnets, platters, etc...) until all that remained was the aluminum box with the metal cover.

At the moment, I'm working on a 3.5 inch spinning glass CD and this fits perfectly into the housing...even giving a little room for wobble (because a glass CD spinning quickly and hitting the inside of the housing just might break :-) )

All I have to do is put the holes through both sides.

These drive housings are durable and not all that heavy once the inner workings are removed. I think it's a good solution for an adapter housing.

Once I get the thing finished (including holes, wiring, lens mount, etc...) I'll try and post some pictures.

I took a couple of pictures of the drive housing as-is. They are located here:

http://70.147.193.182/mwtest/

(The images are named harddrive_for_housing_[ 01 & 02 ].jpg )

I like the idea with the harddrive. It sounds way better than using plastic. Keep us on the up and up!

A hard drive spins WAY faster than a CD player. CD players spin at around 500-750 rpm depending on whether the read head is closer to the center or to the outside. Hard drives of course spin 5400 or 7200 rpm.

That means the speed at the outer edge of a 5.25" circular piece of plastic (blank CD, ground glass, etc), with a CD motor is about 8 to 11 miles per hour (circumference times rotations per minute = distance travelled). With a 5400 rpm drive, it jumps to around 84 mph! That is a HUGE increase, especially in terms of dynamic imbalance as well as simple stability. With a 10x speed increase, centrifugal force is increased 100x. That means any instability, even if it is "invisible" at CD motor rpms, will be really apparent at hard drive rpm's.

I would not want to be at a tangent to a piece of plastic or glass spinning that fast. I guess if you have it inside a metal housing it would be one thing but even so, I wouldn't want shards bouncing into my camcorder or my 35mm lens.

Just my two cents' worth, from a guy who has been around a fabrication shop and machine shop environment for years. Wouldn't want to see anybody's soft parts, or lenses, get hurt.

Hey Bill!

Thank you for the input - and I agree with what you say. However, I won't be using the motor from the hard drive - just the case/housing. I'm still using a regular motor from a portable CD player. I'll rig this with a variable resistor (potentiometer) to adjust speed. (ie. to be able to increase speed in lower light to reduce grain)

Just in case you may have missed the post about Universal Focus Gear for SLR lenses, I do offer them from my site (under construction)

The MPIC will be available before the end of the year offering a few options in terms of different quality parts (filters, screens, motors and adjustable amplitude of motion). You could buy the entry level and upgrade later to higher quality parts. I am still working on pricing it, but I want to make it as affordable as possible. I will list it on the same page:
http://dandiaconu.com/available_products.htm
as soon as I have prices for all parts so you can order it. Thank you all for your sustained interest in this project.

I am taking orders now for MPIC and a few other items.

I couldn't find it on your available products page.

You're right. Sorry.....
Very long hous.... looks like it was not uploaded. I'll do it by this evening. Thank you.

How much are you planning to charge for them after the promotional period?

It looks amazing, especially in terms of size and efficiency, but I would want to see independent tests and reviews before putting down that kind of cash.

It says it needs no macro?
How does it mount on a camera like the XL2 or HD100? Directly to the lens mount or over the stock lens?
Is there any cine lens mount options?

Nope. It does not need any macro for Z1, XL2, DVX100A. It mounts straight on the lens. (I'll get rid of the 20X on the XL2 as soon as I get the chance to take a break) Did some tests with good results:
http://dandiaconu.com/gallery/work-in-progress/IMGA0776
but didn't have the time to finish it.

As for cine lenses, I will make a test using Zeiss (on an 18/24mm frame size because is not intended to cover more than that) side by side with a Nikkor (on 24/36mm frame) You will see why IMO there is no NEED and I see no justification in using cine lenses. I know there are other people with different opinions (and I respect them) but till I can post the pics, I will follow my "guts".

Price will go up. How much? Surprise! (;-)<

<<<<It looks amazing, especially in terms of size and efficiency>>>>

Name one "other unit or device" I could have used to take all the pics on my site to promote this device.

<<<<but I would want to see independent tests and reviews>>>

You have a week to make your own impression and return it if not happy. Why "buy into potentially paid advertising??????????" when I offer you the chance to SEE IT FIRST HAND? But then again, take your time, people WILL talk and you WILL hear reviews. "That kind of cash" falls ....short (IMO). But there are alternatives.

Dan, what is your return on that follow focus if I buy one and don't like it?

I am not sure I... follow, but just to be on the safe side, you may want to wait for reviews or.. buy something you think you WILL like. You were "hard to please" Obin for some products (like MPIC) and very "easy going" with others (ecstatic for Micro35 and Letus).
I do not mind your taste at all. By all means, whatever you like is the best in the world.
This time will be no exception as I can read from your post, and so.. you are better off buying BRAND (you know, tested-trusted) like this:
ARRI FF-2,
FF-3 &
FF-4
CHROSZIEL
WILLYTECH
ARRI lightweight
MOVIECAM follow focus
PRESTON remote focus
PRESTON FI+Z remote focus
or waiting for peoples reviews. (you do not seem to like it to begin with, so why bother at all?)

Dan show me some HD footage with your unit and i will give you honest deedback, till this point I have never seen anything but interlaced consumer video from your unit, the letus and micro35 sent me demo units, they are both great.

All I want to know is if I don't like your FF unit, what will you do for me?
I am a customer for the first FF that works and works well

I am a customer for the first FF that works and works well
Well... there are quite a few options listed two posts up (forgot to mention Cavision) and they all work. They mount on rods and they turn lenses. Now.. if it happens you "don't like" any of those... my unit definitely will not please you. I have offered one week "rental free"; buy it and if you are not happy, return it.

My offer is valid for any customer (including you Obin) and for any of the products I have and I will add to that list. Doesn't work for you? Send it back. What else do you want/expect?

As for the image converter, I offered to shoot and send you an original HDV tape shot with a Z1 and let you watch the footage as you please, deinterlace it, make an HD-DVD (if you can and know to do that). I have no time to catch up with editing in HD or even SD (regardless how much I would like to) and I use what I remember (editing wise) only to demo one feature or another of the devices I make.

For now, I have three top cinematographers (same age as me and older) impressed by the clips and pics I posted on my site and VERY WILLING to offer FB/purchase (outside Vancouver). Their screen credit means a lot to me and their FB is priceless.

Here it is much easier; I walk in a rental house, mount it on the rods (while they prep the camera) and let them play.
Easier, more fun and more rewarding than typing the above.

BTW; Brian Valente did not ask nearly as much as you do, to be one of the first to place an order... (while his company is developing a unit as well, I think)

I see this as nothing but a waste of my time. I will refrain from it, regardless your replay sir. Nothing to gain.

Just in case you stop on by and can't find your ways on the new grounds... don’t worry I am just as lost as you are... (work in progress) I will clean the dust and add more footage soon(HD) (I did not even get the chance to import since I had to fill the orders on the FF and Gears, but...I am working on it).

I am not sure I... follow,

BTW, I am sure I'm in the silent majority that got this one. :)

Dan,
How much would be the cost to get a copy of your HDV demo tape.

"I don't care2!
much 4 money,
money can't buy me love!
Can't buy me looooove" (I just can't help it!)

I do not know if I can make a copy,(I would imagine I would need a deck and the camera or two decks ) but is just much easier to shoot something (rez chart and such) and send the tape (then again, the settings on the camera! I usually underexpose a lot- I do not like to see “washed-out details in the highlights.. and is not always possible to bring all the scene in the camcorder’s dynamic range; that will influence the perception of the image....) I do not know to burn HD-DVD's and my time now is consumed by FF and gear. Let me get these ones rolling and I'll get to it. I could (alternatively) burn a DVD with SD footage from which I have posted on my site (include some hi rez stills? 1760X1320)?? That I could do spending less time NOW.

Burn a DVD with the original .m2t files. No need to know anything about editing. Just the RAW files, so that people who can handle. m2t can do the rest themselves.

Maheel,
Give me a week or so and I will mail you a DVD (SD footage) and an HDV tape.
I have searched for .m2t files and have got a lot of links from Google but is too much trouble for me right now. I'll shoot something on a tape and mail it to you. Email me your address.

Thanks Dan,

I will email you my address. Send me some nice footage on the HDV tape in addition to those res charts (there is always oblidging Felix, but some humans also). I will do a film transfer and send you a copy.

Dan,
I'm not sure I've seen an answer to the question of whether this will work on the current HD100 with stock lens. Any idea?

Thanks.

Warren, most likely yes and looking just as ... well... just like the XL2 with it on top.
Not happy but no time for them yet. FF and gears are chewing a lot of my time.
I will get to it with a prime lens (or “relay” as some call it) I am sorry but I am in a hurry here…

Dan,

A short and precise question. Will you do the FF on and other modifications on DVX100a?

Yes or NO

Don't want to waste your precious time.

Thank you
Hari

I don't understand the Q.
The FF works on DVX if you have a gear on the focus barrel of the camcorder or if you have an image converter taking SLR lenses. As for modifying cameras....at this point in time, I'd fire death if knocking at my door (I might get back to play with cameras and such when things get rolling...) will this do?

How come it says 9am (for my post) and is 2am here. Where are you guys?

Obin - I have Dan's FF and it's **great**! Really innovative design and super quick to flip, remount, reverse - whatever. No backlash & pulls great focus.

Also has internal LED backlighting / lens lighting for dark shoots. It's miles in front of many "name" brands. Also works great with Dan's lens gears - i am currently gearing quite a few lenses with these, and from the prototype I have installed - they are also not-to-be-missed for serious adapter work.

I have the mini 35 - so unlike may people on the forum price is not my issue - my business does very well and I have been shooting professionally for 22 years - so these tools are really, IMHO the right things for the job. They work, and are **very** reasonably priced for what you get.

-john

Obin - I have Dan's FF and it's **great**! Really innovative design and super quick to flip, remount, reverse - whatever. No backlash & pulls great focus.

Also has internal LED backlighting / lens lighting for dark shoots. It's miles in front of many "name" brands. Also works great with Dan's lens gears - i am currently gearing quite a few lenses with these, and from the prototype I have installed - they are also not-to-be-missed for serious adapter work.

I have the mini 35 - so unlike may people on the forum price is not my issue - my business does very well and I have been shooting professionally for 22 years - so these tools are really, IMHO the right things for the job. They work, and are **very** reasonably priced for what you get.

-john

Stop bragging. You know Obin got himself banned from Dan's demesne. No soup for you!! :-)

John, thank you for the FB. I'll send you the rest of the "toys" in a few days.
Bill, Obin is not banned. Nobody is!(who am I to do that anyway). I did worse than he did and I didn't get banned, so I return the courtesy. Obin, if you "need" a FF, just place an order instead of asking questions that have no answers. Is that easy. Better yet, wait another week or two; Redrock is going to release a FF as well (same price range) and they might just send you a demo unit, who knows?