I was at a special HD mini-expo today and talked to some JVC reps (nice guys). Looks like the 24p model is going back to the drawing board, as far as the chips are concerned.

But, in light of the FX1 and the Z1, JVC needs to respond. As such, there is a rumored 3 chip, fully manual (!!!) 1080i24p or 720p24 (depending on how they get it to work with the 24p) that should be announced by JVC at NAB 2005. They said they don't have to protect higher-end HD cameras since they don't have them, and as such can have a 24p camera. They hope it's 1080i, but if the 24p technology works with 720p, they'll go that route. Oh, and 4 audio channels, too. They said that they created the HD1 to sell enough to support the HD10 (consumer sells better than prosumer, I guess) and Sony did the same thing with the FX1 to support the Z1. This new rumored camera won't have a consumer version; probably because sales are anticipated to be very good.

Again, rumor, but it's from JVC reps. Several people heard it there as they were telling me, so I guess it's no secret. Esp. since they know I moderate here.

I figured as much would happen--JVC puts out the first one, Sony puts out better ones, JVC counter-attacks, Canon and Sharp will enter in eventually (they predict Canon first) and so on.

heath

Heath,

I figured as much would happen--JVC puts out the first one, Sony puts out better ones, JVC counter-attacks, Canon and Sharp will enter in eventually (they predict Canon first) and so on.

So are you saying you think Canon will have one by NAB?

No, I don't think so and neither does JVC and Sony. Canon won't enter until probably 2006, but who knows?

heath

While JVC is going 24p, you think they can write the data at 50mbps while they're at it instead of Sony's 25mbps?

Not if it's HDV, no.

Heath, are you saying that they're hinting at a consumer model? Because all that you said fits nicely with what they'd already announced for the 2/3" shoulder-mount model.

> Not if it's HDV, no.

Who cares if it's "correct" HDV. 50 Mbps and smaller GOP MPEG2 with a DVCAM track pitch, I bet that could even be accomplished through a software mod to the FX1/Z1.

The only point is, people keep asking for 50mbps in their HDV cameras, and it's not possible. HDV as a format is 25mpbs (or 19, for 720p).

So you're asking for a new format. The leading contender for that would likely be Panasonic, who've already stuck the DVCPRO-HD label on a prototype HD palmcorder that they shopped around trade shows last year. That looks very interesting, because it's an established format that suffers none of the MPEG-2 drawbacks/compromises of HDV.

It remains to be seen if they'll actually release that product, or any consumer/prosumer-priced DVCPRO-HD products. For the foreseeable future, Canon, Sony, JVC and Sharp have all committed to 25mbps HDV, it's a reasonably safe bet to say that none of them will deviate from/undercut the standard.

If you want a different format, Panasonic looks like the best hope.

Panasonic has to do something with it's design. This handheld DVCPRO-HD prototype has an amateur looking. It looks like a mix-master not a camcorder.

Beside the DVX's original sunshader the DVX has an acceptable design.

The FX1/Z1U has an impressive design.

I am guessing this rumored camera is more pro or prosumer than consumer. Keep in mind that the $20,000 camera they had at NAB 2004 needs a new CCD design.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : They said that they created the HD1 to sell enough to support the HD10 -->>>

I wouldn't put too much stock in that. At the same time the HD1 was showing at CES in January, a consumer JVC rep told me that the JVC pro guys were "pissed" about the HD1 and were going to probably have to rush a pro version to market by NAB. I know that my JVC Pro reps knew less about the HD1/10 than I did until after NAB.

I do believe that the consumer side of JVC developed the HD1 without consultation from the pro side. Otherwise, we'd have had BASIC options like manual control. I also believe the HD10 was a poor, slapped-together attempt to legitimize the camera for the pro market.

I also believe that the ENG-style vaporware HDV camera displayed at NAB was JVC's attempt to counter Sony's vaporware HDV camera that has since become the FX1/Z1. It doesn't surprise me that JVC pro is dropping the ball on this camera, or at least taking longer in the development cycle. It's clear that Sony was farther along with the Z1 than JVC was with the ENG, HDV, 24p camera.

At least Panasonic had the good sense to keep their prototype low-end HD camera in the back rooms instead of parading it all over the show floor at NAB. JVC consumer certainly lit a fire with the HD1. It seems that JVC professional has been running to play catch-up ever since.

Is it just me, or is it becoming increasingly common for camera makers to show prototypes earlier ane earlier in the production cycle? I'm thinking DVX100 wooden mockup at NAB, the Z1 displayed behind glass, JVC's "we can't give you any firm specs, and the camera's not working yet, but we PROMISE 2/3 chips and 24p HDV" etc.? And does it help us, as customers to know 1 or even 2 years out what's coming, plan for it, and maybe even influence the final design specs? Or would it be better, like Canon, to wait to show a product until you have a shipping version? What are your thoughts on camera vaporware or prototypes?

That's a quite interesting point.

It used to be that manufacturers would release whatever they wanted, and expect us (the consumers) to buy it.

Now, yes, it seems like there are a lot more early "trial balloons" being floated. Sony, when first showing the FX1, even said "the features aren't set, we're still asking for customer input"!

Panasonic developed the DVX after listening to customer input.

JVC obviously listened, because they announced a press release that had nothing to do with reality (no camera, no firm specs, no anything, just an announcement of future plans) but boy do those plans sound tempting.

As far as the Panasonic palmcorder/P2 camera, I find it immensely interesting that the first version said "MPEG2-HD" on the side of it, but the most recent version replaced that with "DVCPRO-HD". Could Panasonic be preparing to release a prosumer-priced camera that uses real DVCPRO-HD? That would be huge.

As far as manufacturers listening to consumers, it's certainly getting better. Ken Freed of JVC used to traffic these boards, although I haven't seen him in a while. Stewart English and Jan Crittenden were very accessible, and Jan has now been promoted to product line manager for the DVX and SDX. You can bet that we've been sending a "wish list" of wanted features for whatever camera they eventually introduce.

Years ago we used to go to NAB full of curiousity at what new wonders the camera manufacturers have dreamed up. Now we go to see if they've given us what WE want, rather than what they think we want, and if they haven't, we complain and we wait. And with four major manufacturers competing for our business, that's got to be seen as a good thing, right?

All good points, though I believe the mock up of the $20,000 JVC HDV camera (24p) wasn't competition for the FX1/Z1 vaporware.

One other thing, there was no Z1 at the show I was attending, but some footage that looked good.

heath

Barry

<< Ken Freed of JVC used to traffic these boards, although I haven't seen him in a while. >>

Actually he posted just the other day in The Long Black Line.

All of the various manufacturer's reps monitor DV Info on a fairly regular basis, although some remain in "lurk" mode more than others. I encourage all of them to post more frequently.

There is one entity who details a person to specifically scan our boards every Monday morning, as part of their job description -- how's that for an Area 51 topic. But I don't want to hijack Heath's thread, so I'll keep my mouth shut.

Hoo boy, now I'm paranoid.

heath

i want that job also!

it' very nice to have that kind og job - every monday morning, you go to work, thenk click... click - and you are on dv info to see what's important and then after 8 hours - back home! ohh, so nice! you have so much new info that you cannot analyze it until next monday, so you practically work one day in a whole week. (of course this is area 51).


filip

The JVC 20k cam not meeting deadlines isn't all that suprising.

Them possibly releasing a 24pHD(V?) prosumer model first is very interesting. It would obviously have to outperform the HD1/10 on all of that cam's "issues". JVC seems to have great concepts and poor implementation. Hopefully this new model won't be more of the same. What's really interseting is that none of their consumer models are going over the $500 price range this year, meaning that they've left the higgh end consumer/prosumer behind for now...maybe an indicator that they want to fill the void with this new cam. As far as them not having to protect higher end models, what about the ENG model? There going to get the chips right at some point., and it seems that 24p an HD aren't realy for the ENG crowd, so...

BTW - I liked the look of Panny's prosumer HD mockup. Functionality of that design, of course, remains to be seen.

Concerning having manufacturers heeding user input before going to market with a camera, I'm all for it. The internet has helped people like never before to let companies know what they want, when they want it, and how much the're willing to spend for it. I don't really see a downside to it, besides the fact that some of the bleeding edge adopters get sucked into that mode of waiting for the newest instead of enjoying what tech is out now.

for JVC, the way is pretty clear.
The HD1 was fine already, so they will probably try to buil on it.
3 CCD, 25 Mb/s (the HD1 is only 19, so there is room for improvement) 720p (to get customer missed by Sony with the 1080i, and they already know how to do it)
at 24,25,30 fps (and why not 60fps) and a price just under the sony one.
I think nobody will really go on the pro market with HDV, the real one is consumer and prosumer (massive sales possible).The only ones that could go for pro prices and quality could be Canon or Panasonic
(they need something better than the XL2/DVX100 to be in the major players league)

While I would love to see a 50mgps dvcpro Panny 720p cam for 6k or so, I don't expect it. Why? They would be blowing away their sdx900 SD cam that they ask 25k for.

JVC has nothing to lose, and could build something excellent, except that they never seem to quite deliver the goods.

The only for sure thing is the dvx100a sequel with native 16x9. I'll take one, please.

I'm a little skeptical about a quality HDV camera from JVC after the HD10's lackluster construction and performance, IMHO. And the fact that their $20k 24p pro model is shelved while they re-design it, I'm worried about a sub-$5000 24p camera from them. And that's after I really started thinking about it.

heath

Ken Freed stated they've been working on a 3 chip replacement for the HD1 since 2003 and they feel they will have an excellent reponse to the new cams from Sony. He can't say more than that.

Took them a few years to counter the Sony pd series with the DV300, hope they do better this time. We'll see. Nothing to lose by waiting a month or 2.

Too bad the $20,000 is dead for now.

heath

Heath

There was a small article on VIDEOGRAPHY DEC04, page 33 (also a picture), introducing the all new JVC HDV camcorder, here is what it said,

"JVC is previewing a prototype of its 3-CCD, HD/SD switchable ENG/EFP style camcorder. The professional-grade three-chip camcorder is targeted at mainstream production and ENG users.

The camcorder will use three 2/3-inch CMOS imagers, each with a native resolution of 1920x1080 pixels. The new chips produce a higher image quality with lower power comsumption than conventional CCDs and are adaptable to scanning rates including 720p and 1080i. The camera will support 24 frames progressive recording.

The camera will include a built-in MPEG-2 encoder capable of providing bandwidth-efficient recordings of the native HD images. The unit is capable of recording up to 276 minutes of HD on full-size DV media or up to 60 minutes on mini DV media. In addition, JVC is developing hard-drive and solid-state recording modules."

That camera is back to the drawing boards, something to do with the chips.

heath

Rumors peg Panasonic debuting their flash-based DVCPro HD (sub-$5000) in 2006, JVC this year, but we'll see. JVC already had to go back to the drawing board with their $20,000 (minus lens) HDV 24p rig.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Rumors peg Panasonic debuting their flash-based DVCPro HD (sub-$5000) in 2006 -->>>

Heath, Chris H. had mentioned in another thread that there was rumor floating around about a sub-$10,000 DVCPRO100 cam possibly slated for this year.

Is this the same rumor, or is Panny possibly working on 2 models?

Same rumor, sorry.

Heath: 'They said that they created the HD1 to sell enough to support the HD10'

Scott: 'I wouldn't put too much stock in that. At the same time the HD1 was showing at CES in January, a consumer JVC rep told me that the JVC pro guys were "pissed" about the HD1 and were going to probably have to rush a pro version to market by NAB. I know that my JVC Pro reps knew less about the HD1/10 than I did until after NAB...'

I believe the success of the HD1 helped justify the HD10 to moneymen - but not in the way those JVC guys are suggesting.

It clearly wasn't their solid plan from the start. The HD10/PD1 are both tweaked HD1's - the former made better, the latter worse. In other words: orginally consumer cams at heart.

The consumer controls are the giveaway.

Of course.

heath

Well, Heath, I only say it because it contradicts JVC's claim, posted by you, that the HD1 was released specifically to economically facilitate the HD10.

I just passed along what was said to me. Don't shoot the messenger.

heath

Who's shooting the messenger?

maybe JVC is not going to show the "CMOS" 2/3 camera because the chips are not really out yet??? I for one have been waiting for the Altasense chips for a while for our HD 4:4:4 12bit 1080p cam.... but then again we are still working on how to save that HUGE amount of data we will be dealing with!

Looks like it's going through after all, the $20,000 camera:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?s=&threadid=40463

heath

Actually, I was wrong, that's the sub-$10,000 HD100 that we're talking about, also the FX1/Z1 killer I first mentioned.

heath

<<<-- Originally posted by Heath McKnight : Actually, I was wrong, that's the sub-$10,000 HD100 that we're talking about, also the FX1/Z1 killer I first mentioned.

heath -->>>

It might be more likely to take out the DVX100A than the FX1/Z1. There are so many 24P lovers out there who by now may have developed brand loyalty towards Panasonic but at the same time likely don't have $60k+ for a Varicam . . . and the FX1/Z1's 1080i makes it pretty distinct from the JVCs' 720p, making the comparison sort of like flavors of ice cream.

That's a quite valid point. Actually, I believe Sony made that point when they introduced the FX1, saying something like "now consumers have a choice: they can have HD, OR they can have 24P." JVC seems to be saying "well, hold on -- you can have both!" Panasonic is also producing an HD/24P camera, so the range of choices should be expanded signficantly on April 18 for those who want HD.

based strictly on the information released so far. I think JVC has come up with a great camera for independent feature production, not an eng cam that movie makers have to adapt to their uses. Not a Sony killer either, and doesn't have to be.

Joe, that's the best I've heard yet!

I don't even want to BUY a camera, just rent. And I don't know WHICH camera I'm going to rent to shoot my next flick.

heath